Powering a large layout

Depends on how many engines, passengers cars, cabooses, etc....the draw on the transformers...

That's right - if you only have one train then 2 ZWs will be more than enough.

John C. posted:

Depends on how many engines, passengers cars, cabooses, etc....the draw on the transformers...

Several but probably not more than 3. I am worried about burning up a TIU. I don't know how many amps it  can handle. 

MTH  Z-4000   is good for around  20- 24 volts  about  20  amps.  

Good luck, John 

Be careful with the Z-4000 and TMCC/Legacy.  Maximum voltage is 19 volts, it's possible to damage them at higher voltages.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Be careful with the Z-4000 and TMCC/Legacy.  Maximum voltage is 19 volts, it's possible to damage them at higher voltages.

I won't run more than the maximum voltage John, probably less for that reason.  There is a guy on youtube that's running 30 amp's through his TIU. He has more than one. How is he getting away with this ? The Tiu is rated for 20 amps, correct ?

Each TIU channel is rated at 10 amps, the internal fuses are fast blow 20A fuses, so I can't imagine how he could run 30 amps through a single channel.  30 amps would doubtless fry the variable channels in a flash, even if the fuses were increased in rating.  I would bet that it would be enough to smoke the traces in the fixed channels as well.

Most folks that want to weld their wheels to the track with that much current run the TIU in passive mode to avoid the issues of sending that much power through the TIU.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Each TIU channel is rated at 10 amps, the internal fuses are fast blow 20A fuses, so I can't imagine how he could run 30 amps through a single channel.  30 amps would doubtless fry the variable channels in a flash, even if the fuses were increased in rating.  I would bet that it would be enough to smoke the traces in the fixed channels as well.

Most folks that want to weld their wheels to the track with that much current run the TIU in passive mode to avoid the issues of sending that much power through the TIU.

That's what i thought too.  30 amps is a lot of power.  I sure wouldn't try it.

30 amps sounds like Tommy Z. 

He did a YouTube video where an enormous consist reportedly drew that much power.

---PCJ

MTH Z-4000  20-23 Volts. That's without any load on it. This is the  first one they made because, I have one. unless the meter the panel was off. 

As soon as you a added a load it adjusted itself.

You might want to look at the new Lionel-Transformer it has a lot of Power too.

It's 600 watts. I think its around 20 amps continuous.

Good luck, John

If you have modern electronic engines, many will disagree here, but personally I am a believer in using modern transformers with them like a ZW-L or a Powerhouse 180 brick for each TIU channel. These have modern fast acting breakers that I think give you better protection for your electronics. Also adding TVS diodes will help with spikes.

Also as GRJ pointed out the Z4000 can put out too much voltage for the TMCC/Legacy engines. Again personally, I would save the old transformers for accessories and lighting and things like that. Properly fusing all of your circuits of course.

With a layout as large as you are planning I think you could possibly set up your power blocks so the power would be separated around the layout so you could run more trains and not have them drawing too much power from any one TIU channel at one time. 

I have been running 15 engines on two TIU Channels for the past year with a Z4000.  No problem.  I did want to take advantage of the other TIU channels and ease the load on the Z4000 (even though it was more than sufficient) and added a second Z4000.  I have one handle each from the 4 handles going through 1 channel each of the TIU.  Therefore, by dividing my track into Blocks, I have about 25% of the layout covered by one handle of the transformers.  

I have numerous passenger cars, cabooses, and 15 engines on the track constantly...no issue...not even hen I had just one Z4000.

As Gunner John wrote:  Just be sure to have 18 volts as recommended to track.

rtr12 posted:

If you have modern electronic engines, many will disagree here, but personally I am a believer in using modern transformers with them like a ZW-L or a Powerhouse 180 brick for each TIU channel. These have modern fast acting breakers that I think give you better protection for your electronics. Also adding TVS diodes will help with spikes.

Also as GRJ pointed out the Z4000 can put out too much voltage for the TMCC/Legacy engines. Again personally, I would save the old transformers for accessories and lighting and things like that. Properly fusing all of your circuits of course.

With a layout as large as you are planning I think you could possibly set up your power blocks so the power would be separated around the layout so you could run more trains and not have them drawing too much power from any one TIU channel at one time. 

I think your'e right. Old transformers are just that, old transformers. I have 5 old zw's, 2 model r's. I think setting up blocks would be a good idea.

BLOCKS are always a GREAT and intelligent idea!  When you have electrical issues, as everyone will, Blocks make tracking down the issue E.A.S.Y.

I have 50 Blocks and about 500 feet of track.  If anyone tried to find a short in 500 feet of track it could take forever.  But, when your have your maximum Block about 20 feet long, you simply turn your Blocks off--ALL OF THEM--turn your transformer back on and then turn each Block on one by one constantly watching the transformer to short!  You will know within 20 feet where the problem lies.  :-)

John C. posted:

Depends on how many engines, passengers cars, cabooses, etc....the draw on the transformers...

It's not just how many, but what kind. Postwar engines and incandescent lighting draw a lot more than modern can motors and LED's. If you keep your loads down, you might get away with one large transformer.

Big_Boy_4005 posted:

John C. posted:

Depends on how many engines, passengers cars, cabooses, etc....the draw on the transformers...

It's not just how many, but what kind. Postwar engines and incandescent lighting draw a lot more than modern can motors and LED's. If you keep your loads down, you might get away with one large transformer.

I have some postwar but most of my engines are MTH from the 90's and up plus Legacy & TMCC  engines. All steam.

Somebody mention more power !!  

Like the commercial

Whats under your layout

clem k posted:

Somebody mention more power !!  

Like the commercial

Whats under your layout

I about fell out of my chair laughing when i saw this.

clem k posted:

Somebody mention more power !!  

Like the commercial

Whats under your layout

Have you been peeking under my layout Clem?

But seriously, I have the next best thing. This panel has 3 power supplies on it. Each one is 20A and consists of three, 6.3V transformers in series. If that's not enough, I have a second panel. The six supplies feed 75 power districts on over 3000' of track.

Oh and yes, I have spot welded wheels to the rails many times.

RailRide posted:

30 amps sounds like Tommy Z. 

He did a YouTube video where an enormous consist reportedly drew that much power.

---PCJ

Tommy Z has quite the layout. It looks like it takes some serious power. I'm going down to see him pretty soon. Bunch of postwar to pick up. 

Attached is a little power matrix I made up a while back that may help. It is intended as a conservative guideline only; nothing more, but it should keep you out of trouble. Lots more info is available in the DCS Companion, latest edition.

Cheers, Rod

Rod Stewart posted:

Attached is a little power matrix I made up a while back that may help. It is intended as a conservative guideline only; nothing more, but it should keep you out of trouble. Lots more info is available in the DCS Companion, latest edition.

Cheers, Rod

Thanks Rod, i just printed this. I have to get a copy of this book, it is a must have.

If you introduce a TIU to the layout, my preference is to power each channel with the Lionel PowerHouse 180.  Excellent circuit breakers and 10 amps of 18 volts in a convenient size.  I also like the PH180 breakers stay off until reset unlike some that self-reset.  The last thing I want with a derailment is a circuit breaker constantly resetting itself and applying power before I clear the source of of the problem!

Actually, the PH180 gives you more than the KW.  The old PW transformers were all rated on input power, and considering the efficiency, you'll be lucky to get 140-150 watts out of a KW.  The modern transformers are rated on output power, so you get closer to the actual rated power, though I find that drawing 10 amps from the PH180 drops it to around 17 volts.

PLCProf posted:

Unless you are planning on running PW, I too vote for the PH-180. A single PH-180 gives you almost the same output at a PW ZW, but it is newer, has better protection and its output doesn't droop under load.

I find it somewhat curious that MTH doesn't offer a brick designed to supply the full usable current of a TIU channel.

I am curious too that MTH doesn't offer a brick or a bigger version of the z 4000. You would think that they would not want to be out done by Lionel. 

gunrunnerjohn posted:

If you introduce a TIU to the layout, my preference is to power each channel with the Lionel PowerHouse 180.  Excellent circuit breakers and 10 amps of 18 volts in a convenient size.  I also like the PH180 breakers stay off until reset unlike some that self-reset.  The last thing I want with a derailment is a circuit breaker constantly resetting itself and applying power before I clear the source of of the problem!

I checked into the bricks but they are not available yet. I will ad circuit protection to anything that i use.

FEET,

As several said above, you probably only need to power the track (or each power district) with just one PowerHouse 180.  With a maximum of 18 volts/10 amps you should not harm any engines.  New PH180s should become available soon.  If you want to run conventional, it can be done through the TIU although it is less convenient than having a transformer with handles.  Here is how I would do it, which requires cutting off the plug of the PH180 (or get the adapter wire).  Some may want to add a fast blow fuse between the TIU and track, but as GR John stated the PH180 already has a fast CB.

If you really want more than 10 amps to the track, it becomes a lot more complicated.  The best way is to use two PH180s through the soon (hopefully) to arrive Legacy PowerMaster 360 (or the old TMCC TPC400).  This setup by itself will provide 18 volts/20 amps to the track.  First off, you do not want to run this much power through the TIU, so the TIU must be setup in passive mode.  Second, I do not know how fast the PM360's CB is, and with this much power going to the tracks I don't want to take any chances.  So I would add the very fast, multi setting electronic CB called a PSX-AC.  In the drawing I have it set at 15.8 amps because I know my most power hunger train only pulls around 12-13 amps.  The 22uH choke is there because the PSX can degrade the TIU signal somewhat.

In both setups I have TVSs.  Most of the knowledgeable folks here recommend them, although in the first drawing the TIU's TVS could suffice.  For various reasons, I have multiple TVSs on each power run.

I'm positive I'll get some grief on the 20 amp setup but that is my recommendation if you want more than 10 amps.

Well, I won't give you grief about your 20 amp feed, but I will recommend against it.  There are alternatives to feeding that much power to the track, so I'm not a fan of it.  There's a reason that all the train transformers limit the voltage to 10 amps for each channel, I suspect they share my opinion.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Be careful with the Z-4000 and TMCC/Legacy.  Maximum voltage is 19 volts, it's possible to damage them at higher voltages.

I set them at 18v which works well for running both TMCC and DCS systems.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Well, I won't give you grief about your 20 amp feed, but I will recommend against it.  There are alternatives to feeding that much power to the track, so I'm not a fan of it.  There's a reason that all the train transformers limit the voltage to 10 amps for each channel, I suspect they share my opinion.

I have to agree with you John, 10 amps should be plenty.

PLCProf posted:

I find it somewhat curious that MTH doesn't offer a brick designed to supply the full usable current of a TIU channel.

That is a good question, I hadn't really thought about that until I read your post.

I don't know about the Z4000 breakers (I don't have one), but the PH-180s have much faster breakers than the MTH Z500 and Z1000 bricks that I do have. Also, hard to beat a PH-180 on 'most bang for the buck', IMO.

There's really no comparison between the PH180 and the Z500-750-1000 breakers, night and day.  The Z series has plain old slow thermal breakers, the PH180 has an electronic breaker.

I run only TMCC on my layout, have two loops with 90 to 100 ft of track, another 3 with approx. 50-80ft each, no blocks, though they may be used later.  I use two ZWC trans with six 180 bricks and four 135 bricks, and one TPC400.  The meter bridge on my ZWCs have never shown more than 5-6 amps draw, even with sixteen lighted pass cars pulled by steam or diesel engines.  Also the same with multiple PW SW2 engines in lash-up pulling consist of 50 various boxcars.  IMHO the Lionel 180 bricks and ZWC transformers are the best combination around.  Yes, there are many options out there, some better than others, choose wisely.

Jesse   TCA  12-68275

feet posted:

Rod Stewart posted:

Attached is a little power matrix I made up a while back that may help. It is intended as a conservative guideline only; nothing more, but it should keep you out of trouble. Lots more info is available in the DCS Companion, latest edition.

Cheers, Rod

Thanks Rod, i just printed this. I have to get a copy of this book, it is a must have.

Just to be clear, this table does not appear in Barry's book.

Rod

Rod Stewart posted:

feet posted:

Rod Stewart posted:

Attached is a little power matrix I made up a while back that may help. It is intended as a conservative guideline only; nothing more, but it should keep you out of trouble. Lots more info is available in the DCS Companion, latest edition.

Cheers, Rod

Thanks Rod, i just printed this. I have to get a copy of this book, it is a must have.

Just to be clear, this table does not appear in Barry's book.

Rod

Thanks Rod.