Pre Order for Separate Sale Berks

BTO on a low end starter set grade engine?  Good luck with that Lionel...

 

Seriously, this BTO concept is ridiculous.  They want to push the burden of what does and does not get made to the orders from the customers, but they don't give the customers choices. They just sit back and say 'oh look, there are no sales in S' but they could totally be missing the mark product wise.

 

Why not offer up a bunch of options? Let customers decide what they want to pre-order. It's all vapor-ware until it ships anyways so why not throw out a bunch of options and see what sticks? Instead they have one new engine since the Y-3 came out years ago. S scalers are willing to wait if they know something good is coming.

 

Here's what Lionel needs to understand IMHO:

 

Personally, I was ready to commit to Legacy engines and build a layout around their offerings. I was switching from 3 rail O. I purchased U-33's, and SD-70's even though I don't really care for them as prototypes. I didn't buy Challengers or Y3s because I don't really want big articulated engines. Then they pull the plug almost entirely (seemingly) on high-end engines and scale rolling stock. So guess what? I went to 2 rail O. I lost faith that Lionel will deliver anything I am interested in. I'm not picky either... Give me a (scale) Hudson, Northern, Berk, Mohawk, Mikado, Pacific, Consolidation, 0-4-0, 0-6-0, Any 4 axle diesel, E-Units, PAs, FAs, etc...

 

I currently have 9 2-rail O engines on pre-order with 3rd Rail, Atlas, and MTH. Lionel is getting zero dollars from me at this time.

 

Not that one person matters, but from my perspective (and I can't be the only one) Lionel just doesn't understand the S market. Yes, a lot of people are perfectly happy with the new Berk. I'm am genuinely happy for you.  I just think Lionel made serious blunders in their product selections for the high-end stuff and now they are staying away because it didn't sell. My opinion is that they could have chosen any of my suggestions above and fared much better.

BTO on a low end starter set grade engine outrageous.

Do not have one order.

Thanks for going through the effort to clear up the situation Berks, Matt.

 

Rusty

Seriously, this BTO concept is ridiculous.  They want to push the burden of what does and does not get made to the orders from the customers, but they don't give the customers choices. They just sit back and say 'oh look, there are no sales in S' but they could totally be missing the mark product wise.

 

Why not offer up a bunch of options? Let customers decide what they want to pre-order. It's all vapor-ware until it ships anyways so why not throw out a bunch of options and see what sticks? Instead they have one new engine since the Y-3 came out years ago. S scalers are willing to wait if they know something good is coming.

______________________

 

Jonny.....I can understand your position, but in my conversations with Lionel people I understand theirs too.  S gauge is a small market and the scale people in S are a fraction of that. The BTO is being used throughout their gauges to prevent losing money. They have enough Berk orders to produce the 5 engines.  I think that this speaks well to the process as now people who want one and ordered will get one. 

 

MTH and Lionel are not going to give us tons of options because they have to do things in advance of floating an option that cost money. 

 

With American Models, S is their only market so it remains the best option.  But he hasn't offered a new steam engine for many years.  His problem is that he still has lots of unsold Northerns.  I think that is why his new locomotives are diesels.  He can use the same platform with a new plastic shell.  These don't require the expense of using a metal casting for the shell and lots of add on parts.   

 

We in S need to be realistic. 

I would add the RS11 is the first all NEW locomotive from AM about 10 years. 

 

The Train Masters and U25B's were the last new diesel locomotives, released in 2005 or thereabouts as I recall.  (At least that's the earliest I have pictures for them.)  The E8's first came out in 2001.  I clock the Northern as a 2006 release.

 

Rusty

I wonder if the orders for the berks were "good enough" to go forward, or is the big tooling money was spent anyway for the PE set berk that production of the separate sale berk is gunna happen regardless of orders (unless they were really bad) just to help a return on the cost of tooling.

I truly hope that's not the case, but I can help but wonder.

Ben

When I talked to Matt Ashba this morning I asked him if the pre orders met their expectations and he said yes.  If you look at his comments above, if their is enough demand for any of the road names of the 5 they will go into production again.

 

What I am wondering is what they will produce after the Berks.  He will not give me a hint at what will be in the 2016 catalog yet.

 

No problem here. I have no interest, given the current low rent configuration of the electronics. 

 

Bob

Bob

I share your  sentiment with the stand alone berk, I'm not a huge fan of the detail but I do understand the target market for it.  The cast in handrails suck, not ifs ands or buts about it.

I did purchased one for "the cause" and I know that my 4 year old will dig it and the FlyerChief remote so it will get its use. I would like to see the RTR set segment grow and the FlyerChief will hopefully help it get there. 

Ben

I do not like the cast-in handrails, but I must admit, from the photos of the production model, they don't look as bad as I imagined they would.

 

This wouldn't fly on a Legacy engine, however.

Casey..I have the Polar Express Berk early because Lionel sent it to me to write a review for the S Gaugian.  I will tell you it looks and operates fine.  If you are a High-Rail guy and operator you would probably like it a lot.  I have played with it a lot on my High-Rail layout and the FlyerChief is great.

 

I know the detail of this engine is just can't satisfy the scale guys but for an operator like me I really like it.  I bet at some point scale guys will probably do what they do with Gilbert engines and modify it to scale.

Funny thing is, over on the 3-rail side, the LionChief system was greeted pretty much the same resistance as it is over here.  Now it's almost as good as sliced bread.  and there is the ability to run on conventional AC, something that can't be said for all of the LionChief O gauge stuff. 

 

Frankly, the Berks are as good as anything to start with as a low end model.  Being somewhat the red-haired stepchild of the Polar Express, they probably wouldn't exist at all if it wasn't for the Polar Express. 

 

Yeah, the cast in handrails are a bummer, but look at all the old Gilbert Flyer Atlantics and Pacifics with cast on handrails still running around.  And overall, they're less accurate to their respective prototype's than the new Berkshires.

 

Do I have a Berk on order? Yep.  I'm curious about them.  Will I be converting it to scale?  Nope, not even a consideration.  Will I buy other FlyerChief loco's?  Probably not.

 

Rusty

 

I hear ya. However, Some of us are hoping for something more than a low rent kiddie train with a flimsy feeling FlyerCheap remote. And remember, Gilbert did put wire hand rails on the Northerns, Hudsons, K5s, early 350s and Atlantics, the B6s, and the 0-8-0s.

 

Sorry, but this just doesn't quite cut it, IMHO.

 

Bob

Well, when the one I have on order shows up, I'll let folks know all about it and compare it against a River Raisin Berk, just for grins...

 

Rusty

 

This is missing the point ...

 

The desire among some of us is for something a bit 'upscale' in the Legacy and add-on detail departments. The Gilbert PAs are hardly fine brass scale models, but they are being built with Legacy these days and people are enjoying them. A few Berk choices could be easily slotted into this same market segment along side the FlyerCheap offerings. An additional flavor of remote is just plain clumsy for those of us who have already gone to the expense of installing Legacy and buying previously offered Legacy motive power.

 

Bob

I understand that.  Frankly, Flyer/LionChief isn't targeting the old timers.  How successful it will be in S remains to be seen.  It's still better than recycling old Gilbert designs.  I stopped buying recycled Gilbert years ago, regardless of how it's controlled.  Recycled Gilbert in general simply doesn't appeal to me anymore.

 

I would certainly like the Berkshire a whole lot more if it were something I could send off to Fred Rouse to scalify and run on DCC, but it's not.

 

I'm getting one merely as a curiosity.  Seeing the scale side has been abandoned for the time being, I expect to make very few, if any, other purchases of American Flyer in the future anyway.

 

As mentioned before, the whole "Chief" theory of model trains has been beaten to a pulp on the 3-rail side, which is where the Circle L gets most of it's profits from.  If the boys at the ranch aren't gonna change for the 3-railers, they certainly aren't going to change for the S gaugers.

 

Rusty

 

 

 

 

Since when is a Flyer layout Hi-Rail?  This disinformation just confuses the masses.  The Berk is probably a great engine at a reasonable price, in the traditional sense.  But Hi-rail?  How does it compare to the Mikado or Pacific Flyonel put out?  Is it in the same ball park?  With casted on hand rails… hardly.

 

I apologize for beating this dead horse, however it is a shame we just can’t agree on the 3 different general categories of S scale model railroading.  If I were to read the much anticipated review by Roundhouse Bill  where I gather he will refer to it a Hi-rail, and bought the Berk under the pretense that it was indeed Hi-rail, I would be PO’ed.

 

Tom Stoltz

in Maine

    Honestly, I'm going to go out on a limb and confess that I truly do not understand anything about what this new Berk is "supposed" to be.  Personally, I think it borders on the ridiculous and I find the idea of Flyer/Lion Chief to be even worse.  To think that we have gone From the Challengers / Y-3 and ES44's to now not even being able to get a new mechanical reefer made because of "lack of pre-orders" is total B.S.

 

      I also fail to see what has become so unacceptable about a manufacturer actually making something. Am I the only 1 who wonders why I simply cannot walk into a train shop and see something running or call up a dealer and actually buy a train?  Not jump up to preorder some vaporware in a catalog and then hope and pray the Lion god goes ahead and makes it.  

 

      Hey, at least I can say that all of this has made me appreciate 332's w/ link couplers and 336's w/ knuckles ALOT more.  Personally, I could very much go for some newly released, traditional Flyer, along the lines of the Conventional Classics that they did in O scale. I don't think anyone at Lionel knows their a** from 3rd base when it comes to making something that appeals to any of the significant groups that comprise S and from what I have seen so far, I don't think they even want to.

 

Hey Jonnyspeed,

 

I received notice that you posted, however I don’t think it made it to the forum, or perhaps it was censored…

 

Tom Stoltz

in Maine

TOM - OK whatever the definition my layout is all original Gilbert American Flyer track and switches.  Most all of the guys in our train club use Gilbert track.  Does that help you understand what I was trying to say? 

I'm being watched these days Tom I've said all I have to say... My remaining S scale stuff is going on a display shelf and I'll be building a 2 rail O scale layout now. Time to move on. Good luck to my S scale friends. I hope things get better soon.

 

Hi Bill,

 

I am far from confused about the difference between Flyer and Hi-rail.  My main concern is journalistic integrity because you are the one who will write the review.  The S Gaugian has the potential of reaching a lot of new people and I personally think it would be a disservice to have them misinformed about this new engine.

 

 I know the Berk is going to be a great engine in the traditional Flyer sense.  Other than the operating system, I am very excited about receiving mine.  However, because of what is already known about it, I am not under any allusions about it being Hi-rail.

 

Lionel is very capable of doing Hi-rail as witnessed by the Mikado, Pacific and Y3, to name a few.  But they chose to produce the Berk in the Flyer mode and so it should be labeled by us rather than something it isn’t.

 

Tom Stoltz

in Maine

There was a time in this great land when Gilbert Flyer running through realistic scenery was considered "hirail."  Same goes for the 3-rail world, three rail track and O31 curves notwithstanding.

 

Mankind had has developed a tendency lately to define things to the nth degree, where only a few things, if any fits the definition. 

 

The New Haven railroad referred to their electric locomotives as "motors."  The Chicago Burlington and Quincy referred to their diesel-electric locomotives as "motors."  By strict definition, one or both of them was wrong.  But which one?  Both?  Or neither? 

 

It's certainly not the reason neither railroad exists today.

 

Between P:64 and the most basic of S there are almost infinite shades of gray, suiting a modelers purpose as he defines it in his own mind. 

 

Even my own scale railroad isn't much of a "scale" railroad by the strictest of definitions: the curves are too sharp, the turnouts not even close to what's used on the prototype, the terrain too flat, far too much "alien" and "out of era" power shows up much too often and to top it all off, it's a freelanced railroad.  Yet, I still call it a scale railroad.

 

As far a the S Gaugian's journalistic reach, that reach is minimal.  There are five hobby shops within a half hour-45 minute drive of my home.  Only one carries the S Gaugian.  As much as I like Don and appreciate his efforts, that's not exactly a density that will inflame the masses to joining the S, crowd regardless of how it's defined.

 

Rusty

Tom and Rusty:

 

Let me respond to both of you with my comments.  First, the S Gaugian has about 3500 subscribers.  No other magazine for S Gauge has that many subscribers.  In addition it is sold in a number of other locations over the counter.  How many I don't know.

 

Now Flyer and Hi Rail are the same to me.  Scale means scale wheels, couplers, and track.

 

The Berks are to scale in size but not scale as to their wheels or what adorns them like wire handrails.  The recent steam engines from Lionel back to the TMCC models, like the Pacifics, and on to the Legacy models like Y3 are far more scale than the Berks.  

 

I have the Polar Express Berk and it is far from Gilbert Flyer in many ways. It has sound, verbal announcements, whistle & bells, a smoke unit with a fan, and a hand held remote (FlyerChief).  Far advanced from any Gilbert Flyer engine.

 

I think you will find FlyerChief works well and you will be pleased with its ability to operate the Berk.  If you choose to just use a transformer without the FlyerChief you will be less satisfied.  Why, because you will find that the smoke unit will not produce smoke a normal operating speeds because it is built to operate at 18 volts, which it does with FlyerChief and the announcement function also cannot be activated.  

Bill,

 

The same can be said for an engine operated with Legacy as opposed to traditional AC control.

The S scale manufacturing/importing community has been (with very few exceptions) The Gang Who Couldn't Shoot Straight for a very long time, and that tradition seems to be continuing...

 

Jeff C

I don't get your point Jeff.  Please explain?  Thanks

My point? Look at the way business is being done in S scale. Ask yourself what percentage of newbies in S scale actually stay in the scale, then ask why that percentage is so low. Lionel clearly doesn't get it...and to be honest, few people involved in S manufacturing have over the years, with the notable exception being Don Thompson.

 

I will grant you that there are glimmers of hope...the new AM RS-11 looks great, and hopefully it is the first of a series of new releases from that company. Hopefully that company will also go back and retool/update some of the shakier models in the product line.

 

But the hope has to be mitigated by a frank understanding of the opportunity that has been lost over the last thirty five years. A smart company understands the time value of inventory relative to resources, and that products have an expiration date.

Here's the thing that many S scale manufacturers fail to understand--people have an expiration date too, and many of us have gone from being young and enthusiastic to old and jaded in our wait for S scale to stop tripping over the boom-boom pachyderm (Admittedly an off beat reference to a Joni Mitchell song... ).

 

It's perfectly fine to label S scale a craftsman's scale. It has certainly worked out well in TT scale, a craftsman scale where all ten modelers feel very exclusive...

 

Jeff C

 

Jeff, I just don't understand why so many people pin their hopes on Lionel to make S grow.

 

Look at the Scales that have grown. Lionel did not have anything to do with the growth of HO, N, On30 or O scale 2 rail.

 

HO is the best example.  It was firms like Atlas, Varney, &  Athearn, which all started out as small firms, who promoted the scale and helped it grow.  Lionel's efforts were to promote HO as "Little Lionel" and when sales didn't live up to expectations, they got out of the market.

 

Right now American Models is the only firm that fits that pattern of firms that will make the scale grow.  SHS did a lot to promote the growth, but now that MTH owns the dies, I don't have any great expectations.

 

So what I am saying in my usual longwinded way, is don't expect Lionel or MTH to behave like an Athearn.  If we get anything usable out of MTH or Lionel, that is great, but don't hold your breath.  Lionel is not the future of S.

 

LittleTommy

 

Jeff...Remember their are lots of new guys who buy and operate Gilbert engines and Flyonel that is not treated to be scale.  Our club has been recruiting guys every year in their late 30's and early 40's that will continue the S Gauge hobby.  Lionel and other manufactures speak pretty well to this group.  Plus there is lots of Gilbert S available as collections come up for sale.  

 

It may be that S Scale people that are a dying breed.

Perhaps one of you guys should start a new thread for this topic.  This is pretty far from talking about the separate sale Berks.  You may collect more conversation about your topic. 

That was my biggest complaint about S when I got in 30 years ago.  The "scratch builders" mindset.

 

There seemed (and sometimes still seems) to be a lack of comprehension by some in S that folks can be craftsmen and scratch builders in other scales and don't need a scale exclusively dedicated to do it.

 

Even with Lionel's brief excursion into the scale side of S, I sensed and unspoken "how dare they" attitude from a segment of the scale-minded brethren.  There was a potential with Lionel, but I fear it's a potential lost.

 

Rusty