Proper use of steam locomotive backup lights???

Bob Delbridge posted:

Most, if not all, model steam locomotives come with a backup light that turns on/off when changing direction of the engine.

Is this prototypical?

 

It is not automatic.

The both the forward and rear headlights are controlled by the engineer, not the direction of locomotive travel.   The locomotives I've run had a 5 position switch above the engineer's window: Forward Bright, Forward Dim, Off, Reverse Dim, Reverse Bright.

It's nice to have a rear headlight when travelling light in the reverse direction when it's dark.

Rusty

A back up light is as it says a back up light. sometimes at night while making a tie and then going between the equipment to couple an airhose the engineer will leave the light on dim to help illuminate the area. otherwise OFF ! when moving forward.

Rusty Traque posted:

It is not automatic...The locomotives I've run had a 5 position switch above the engineer's window: Forward Bright, Forward Dim, Off, Reverse Dim, Reverse Bright.

This is exactly the setup on NKP 765. When running in the forward direction, the front headlight is on bright and the rear headlight is off. The front headlight is dimmed in certain situations, such as when meeting an opposing train. This is done so we don't blind the engineer in the oncoming train with the bright light.

When backing up "engine light" (as in just the engine, no cars) the rear headlight is turned on and the front headlight goes off.

There is NOTHING "automatic" on a steam locomotive! 

I don't suppose there is any conventional location for headlight and rear light switch locations on a steam locomotive?

On an AAR control stand they are logically located left and right of the reverser handle.

In the 765 the switch is on the right hand cab wall just above the window.

The Southern Pacific had the headlight/Mars Light controls on the Fireman's side. The "back-up light" on the rear of the tender was pretty much only used for light engine, reverse movements.

Some railroads didn't even have "back-up lights" on the rear of the tenders, such as many CB&Q steam locomotives. Thus, to answer the original poster's question,,,,,,,,no it was NOT "automatic" that a "back-up light" would be turned on just because the locomotive went into reverse.

I believe yard engines required a head light    to the front and to the rear at all times. However there are always exceptions.

This is just one of the compromises of 3-rail remote control systems.  Right now there are hundreds of O gauge steam locomotives and diesel units running forward with the headlight, green class lights to the front and red markers to the rear, illuminated on the steam locomotive or on the leading unit.  And, if we make a reverse movement, the rear headlight is illuminated, regardless of whether the movement is light or with cars, steam, diesel, or electric.  That's just how it is.

In real life, the Engineer manually controls the rear headlight,* and uses it:

• dim on both ends of light engines within yards or when standing on a main track
• bright when running backward on a main track, either as a light engine movement or when pulling cars attached to the front of the locomotive, dimming it when required by rules.
• off on the end(s) coupled to cars, or on light engines when stopped in a siding and all siding switches have been lined for main track movements
• since the question was about rear headlights on steam locomotives, we will disregard the contemporary use of a dim headlight displayed to the rear of a locomotive attached to the rear of a train, as a marker.  This is a modern compromise and was never the practice in steam days.

Personally, I would like to be able to individually control headlights on both ends (bright, dim, off) number lights, Mars lights, and class lights (on, off, green, white, red for markers).  Most modelers would want to throw the remote against the wall if they had to constantly make adjustments like those.  Model railroading is done for enjoyment, so, we have what we have, and, I just overlook some of these little things.  Some who are more passionate, disable the marker lights on the tender, or the permanently green class lights.  This is usually done by cutting wires.

I find that a the automatic rear headlight on my 3-rail locomotives indicates whether the latest direction command I sent has been received, and keeps me from starting off in the wrong direction.

So . . . no there were never, and still aren't, any automatic rear headlights on locomotives, but let's have fun running our trains.

*  The proper name of this appliance.

When did it become common practice to have the headlight on during the day?  It seems many photos of trains into the 40s and 50s show trains without the headlight on.

Number 90 posted:

Personally, I would like to be able to individually control headlights on both ends (bright, dim, off) number lights, Mars lights, and class lights (on, off, green, white, red for markers).

I find that a the automatic rear headlight on my 3-rail locomotives indicates whether the latest direction command I sent has been received, and keeps me from starting off in the wrong direction.

So . . . no there were never, and still aren't, any automatic rear headlights on locomotives, but let's have fun running our trains.

*  The proper name of this appliance.

Tom, good points and thanks for the proper name

The rear light (backup light) was not just running light.   In steam days, many "out and back" locals could not turn their engine at the end of the run.    The crew just ran around the train, ran tender first pulling the train.   They needed a light in this case.   

When did it become common practice to have the headlight on during the day?  It seems many photos of trains into the 40s and 50s show trains without the headlight on.

--

Thanks, Bob

Around here (East end of the B&O) seems to me it was around 1955 when they started using the headlight during the day.

prrjim posted:

The rear light (backup light) was not just running light.   In steam days, many "out and back" locals could not turn their engine at the end of the run.    The crew just ran around the train, ran tender first pulling the train.   They needed a light in this case.   

Good catch Jim.

The local Norfolk & Portsmouth Belt Line didn't turn their engines around and had to run them backwards back to their origin.

OGR Webmaster posted:

Rusty Traque posted:

It is not automatic...The locomotives I've run had a 5 position switch above the engineer's window: Forward Bright, Forward Dim, Off, Reverse Dim, Reverse Bright.

This is exactly the setup on NKP 765. When running in the forward direction, the front headlight is on bright and the rear headlight is off. The front headlight is dimmed in certain situations, such as when meeting an opposing train. This is done so we don't blind the engineer in the oncoming train with the bright light.

When backing up "engine light" (as in just the engine, no cars) the rear headlight is turned on and the front headlight goes off.

There is NOTHING "automatic" on a steam locomotive! 

Same way on 1225 as well

Around 1950, the western railroads began requiring the use of the headlight during daylight due to diesel-electric locomotives being quieter than, and normally not emitting visible exhaust in the volume typical of, steam locomotives.  It was done in the interest of safety for the public as well as for railroad employees working on or near tracks.  The headlight was easily seen on the more-or-less treeless great plains.  Eastern roads may have adopted the practice later (see RBDR's post), as the sight distance is shorter by comparison, due to actually having trees over much of the territory.  In any event, it was done by individual railroads, and not by any government order.

Number 90 posted:

I find that a the automatic rear headlight on my 3-rail locomotives indicates whether the latest direction command I sent has been received, and keeps me from starting off in the wrong direction.

Which is why I need to get around to adding a headlight to the back of my Legacy SP ten wheeler.  I've developed a bad habit of starting off in the wrong direction.  Good thing I have momentum turned up so it goes slow.

sinclair posted:

Number 90 posted:

I find that a the automatic rear headlight on my 3-rail locomotives indicates whether the latest direction command I sent has been received, and keeps me from starting off in the wrong direction.

Which is why I need to get around to adding a headlight to the back of my Legacy SP ten wheeler.  I've developed a bad habit of starting off in the wrong direction.  Good thing I have momentum turned up so it goes slow.

I've been doing the same, adding rear headlights to the tenders that didn't come with them.  I wish appliances like these would have been documented in the books I have, most times I simply guess at the type, trying to get one that's close to what I see in a photograph.

None of my Williams brass engines, except for the N&W J 611, came with a rear headlight on the tender, but they did come with marker lamps on the tenders and my 2 RailKing 2-8-0s didn't have them.

The one thing I've never understood is how British locomotives never had headlights (the lights on the front of locomotives was mostly for signaling of the train type to station master as they went past). You'd think the engine crew would want to see where they're going. I get that British RRs have better division of grades and roads than in the US, but wouldn't you want to know if there's a washout or landslide ahead? I always thought it was wrong somehow to be speeding along at almost Amtrak speeds at night and having no clue what's in front of you.

It's automatic on a model because... who's going to reach into the cab to flip the switch?

I do wish that DCC had an option to turn off the auto reverse for the lights...

Depending on the decoder, DCC has all kinds of options for turning off the lights or dimming them or whatever  you want to do.   All the decoders I have allow you to turn off the auto reverse lights.    I have NCE, Lenz, QSI, and Digitrax Decoders.   

Get your decoder manual/instruction sheet and look for light controls.   The stuff is easier to find on the non-sound decoders, because they have less CVs and smaller instruction books.   

>>Depending on the decoder, DCC has all kinds of options for turning off the lights or dimming them or whatever  you want to do.   All the decoders I have allow you to turn off the auto reverse lights.    I have NCE, Lenz, QSI, and Digitrax Decoders. << 

Good Grief!  Why should I need a degree in Computer Science to run my trains ?

p51 posted:

The one thing I've never understood is how British locomotives never had headlights ... but wouldn't you want to know if there's a washout or landslide ahead? ... 

British railways normally had fenced rights-of-way; there was no open range. Mainline railways were often double-track with signals and manned signal boxes at frequent intervals, and many on-the-ground track maintenance people who inspected and maintained the track to high standards. In earlier years crossing gates were often manned, with full barriers at level crossings.

In the earlier years there were no headlights and later on, the first headlights weren't really powerful enough to enable the crew to see that far on a train travelling at speed. So they had a different attitude about the need for and usefulness of headlights from the beginning.

Ace posted:

p51 posted:

The one thing I've never understood is how British locomotives never had headlights ... but wouldn't you want to know if there's a washout or landslide ahead? ... 

British railways . . . had a different attitude about the need for and usefulness of headlights from the beginning.

I'll tip my hat to those British Engine Drivers.  They had to know the railroad.

In the 1970's, when the Third and Fourth Districts of the Los Angeles Division were mainly rural, we ran in very heavy fog every night in the spring and fall (60 MPH on freight and 90 MPH on passenger) due to the layer of marine air pushing in from the shore up to the San Bernardino and San Gabriel Mountains.  My role model for running in fog  was D. O. Millard, a truly fine Locomotive Engineer, who kept his window open to hear the sounds of what he was passing, kept the bell ringing continuously, whistled constantly from each whistle post until a crossing appeared, and dimmed the headlight only seconds before a block signal appeared out of the fog, after which he restored it to bright.  He would not have been lost even with no headlight at all.  That must have been similar to the way the British Engine Drivers did it in total darkness.

Today, the former Third and Fourth districts have new names and not much fog, as the roofs of adjacent houses warm the air as they gradually cool down from the day.

Thanks for all the info guys!

Got another query...Did the RRs run with a bright headlight and a dim reverse light at any time, or when the headlight was bright was the reverse light off?

This came up while I was wiring a BlueRail board in my Weaver N&W RS3 with twin beam lights.  When I power up the headlight comes on and the reverse light is dim, when I put it in reverse the reverse light come on the headlight is dim.

Emailed BlueRail and here's what Dave Rees said:

That is the way Bachmann had us setup their locos,and we kept with the same behavior on these boards, but you are the third person to be confused by that. I'm contemplating changing it (so the tailing lights are off instead of dim). If you do look into how the prototypes behave let me know what you find out.

According to his response I wired my engine like it was intended to be (although, maybe not correct).

I told him I'd ask here to get him an answer on what the prototypical operation was.

Bob Delbridge posted:

Thanks for all the info guys!

Got another query...Did the RRs run with a bright headlight and a dim reverse light at any time, or when the headlight was bright was the reverse light off?

If you are referring to steam locomotives, then the answer would be, maybe. It the locomotive was running light, i.e. no train, then SOME SORT OF LIGHT would have been turned on, at the rear, depending on the direction of travel and which way the locomotive was facing.      Yes, it gets complicated, since nothing was "automatic". Even in the diesel era, it was/is pretty much up to the Engineer to follow the applicable rules, and manually turn on/off whichever headlight he needed.

This came up while I was wiring a BlueRail board in my Weaver N&W RS3 with twin beam lights.  When I power up the headlight comes on and the reverse light is dim, when I put it in reverse the reverse light come on the headlight is dim.

Emailed BlueRail and here's what Dave Rees said:

That is the way Bachmann had us setup their locos,and we kept with the same behavior on these boards, but you are the third person to be confused by that. I'm contemplating changing it (so the tailing lights are off instead of dim). If you do look into how the prototypes behave let me know what you find out.

According to his response I wired my engine like it was intended to be (although, maybe not correct).

I told him I'd ask here to get him an answer on what the prototypical operation was.

but wouldn't you want to know if there's a washout or landslide ahead? I always thought it was wrong somehow to be speeding along at almost Amtrak speeds at night and having no clue what's in front of you.

I suspect that at operating speeds a train can't stop within headlight range.

Bob Delbridge posted:

Thanks for all the info guys!

Got another query...Did the RRs run with a bright headlight and a dim reverse light at any time, or when the headlight was bright was the reverse light off?

This came up while I was wiring a BlueRail board in my Weaver N&W RS3 with twin beam lights.  When I power up the headlight comes on and the reverse light is dim, when I put it in reverse the reverse light come on the headlight is dim.

Emailed BlueRail and here's what Dave Rees said:

That is the way Bachmann had us setup their locos,and we kept with the same behavior on these boards, but you are the third person to be confused by that. I'm contemplating changing it (so the tailing lights are off instead of dim). If you do look into how the prototypes behave let me know what you find out.

According to his response I wired my engine like it was intended to be (although, maybe not correct).

I told him I'd ask here to get him an answer on what the prototypical operation was.

Bob,

Units running lite are to have their rear headlight on dim as the marker for the end of train. If there are cars involved, the end coupled to the cars should be extinguished.

Thanks Jim, makes more sense than those marker lamps on the models that the real RRs failed to apply

Bob Delbridge posted:

Thanks Jim, makes more sense than those marker lamps on the models that the real RRs failed to apply

When you refer to "marker lamps" you mean on steam locomotives, right? Diesels didn't have "marker lamps", but did have "class lights" which could be mechanically switched from white, green or red. Naturally the red class lights would have been used on the rear of the unit, or consist of units.

Hot Water posted:

Bob Delbridge posted:

Thanks Jim, makes more sense than those marker lamps on the models that the real RRs failed to apply

When you refer to "marker lamps" you mean on steam locomotives, right? Diesels didn't have "marker lamps", but did have "class lights" which could be mechanically switched from white, green or red. Naturally the red class lights would have been used on the rear of the unit, or consist of units.

Exactly Jack, those pesky marker lamps on the tenders.  I've managed to remove most of them but I still have 1 or 2 locos with them soldered in place.

Hot Water posted:

Bob Delbridge posted:

Thanks Jim, makes more sense than those marker lamps on the models that the real RRs failed to apply

When you refer to "marker lamps" you mean on steam locomotives, right? Diesels didn't have "marker lamps", but did have "class lights" which could be mechanically switched from white, green or red. Naturally the red class lights would have been used on the rear of the unit, or consist of units.

  Here's the definition of a train...A engine or more than one engine coupled with or without cars, displaying markers.     The red rear  lenses on a diesel would comply as  red markers.

 A single engine (steam or diesel) might operate as a train with a schedule in train order territory.

Kent Loudon posted:

>>Depending on the decoder, DCC has all kinds of options for turning off the lights or dimming them or whatever  you want to do.   All the decoders I have allow you to turn off the auto reverse lights.    I have NCE, Lenz, QSI, and Digitrax Decoders. << 

Good Grief!  Why should I need a degree in Computer Science to run my trains ?

 

If you can reply to a post here, you could set a CV (Control Value) on a decoder. For lighting it's often just changing one or two numbers.

BTW, re the original post, remember that it wasn't uncommon for railroads to have branches that didn't have a turntable or other turning facility at the end, so a steam engine might head into the branch, but have to back out tender-first with it's train. Need lights at both ends for that.