S Gauge F3's from MTH - S Gaugian Review

Bill, 

Now THAT is a review to look forward to! 

I am surprised the Santa Fe is on the back end of the delivery schedule...

Ben

Considering that the Santa Fe is probably the most popular paint scheme, I agree that it seems odd to be the last to be delivered. But what do I know?

Remember the Chinese don't know the difference between popular railroads here.  Probably the luck of the draw in their paint department.

The Santa Fe's also have the most complicated paint masks of the roadnames MTH is doing.  Assuming MTH is doing the correct "long" Warbonnet for these particular F3's as illustrated in the catalog, the old F7 masks couldn't be used (if they even still exist.)

Rusty

As a reminder, these engines will not run with a Lionel TMCC or Legacy system. This is going to cause a lot of grief for MTH, because most guys will not know this. You must buy a MTH DCS system to get the full effects.

 

 

Jack

Jack

No more grief than one would have with an O gauge MTH engine not running on TMCC.  I think the people who have and use legacy and TMCC are savy enough to know they can't use Lionel's system with MTH. 

Ben 

As a reminder, these engines will not run with a Lionel TMCC or Legacy system. This is going to cause a lot of grief for MTH, because most guys will not know this. You must buy a MTH DCS system to get the full effects.

I would have liked to see MTH offer these as plain DC also so I might have done the conversion to TMCC. Oh well American Models does F units and they come as conventional DC.

Ray

 

 

 

Rayin"S" posted:

As a reminder, these engines will not run with a Lionel TMCC or Legacy system. This is going to cause a lot of grief for MTH, because most guys will not know this. You must buy a MTH DCS system to get the full effects.

I would have liked to see MTH offer these as plain DC also so I might have done the conversion to TMCC. Oh well American Models does F units and they come as conventional DC.

Ray

 

 

 

From the horse's catalog:

If common S knowledge runs true, 85% of customers will be running in a Flyer or HiRail environment with AC, not DC.  The market is too small to offer DC only locomotives.  AM gets away with it because they don't offer any type of command control.  Every time AM shows up at S Fest, they bring AC Hirail products, no DC or scale wheeled stuff.

Of course, you won't be able to access all of the golly-gee-wiz DCS features under conventional control, but you will get basic operation.

I'll be running mine under DCC.  All I expect it to do is forward, backwards, consist, diesel noise, toot and ding.  Any other features, I could care less.

Rusty

I would say that what MTH wrote is somewhat misleading if someone read it fast but definitely not an untruth. A quick internet search revealed that compatible means: (of two things) able to exist or occur together without conflict. We know this is true because DCS can coexist with TMCC/Legacy in O gauge. The description doesn't say it can be controlled by TMCC/Legacy in Command Mode. The word "all" could give someone the incorrect idea that TMCC/Legacy could control this locomotive in Command Mode. In my opinion better wording would be "engine is compatible with all S Gauge operating systems including conventional AC and DC and can be operated in Command Mode with our own DCS system or any DCC system."

I am on the fence about buying one of these locomotives since I am not really an S gauge guy. I have a few pieces of rolling stock but no locomotives. Just the fact that there will be a review tells me the product will be at least good if not great. It has been my experience that model train magazines no longer print articles on models that are terrible.

All opinion.

Bill Nielsen posted:

From the horse's catalog:

 

If the F3 won't run on TMCC, I find this claim by MTH to be misleading, at best. At worst, it is an outright untruth, since TMCC/Legacy is a bonafide S Gauge operating system due to the simple fact that Lionel has offered it as OEM equipment in several of their S Gauge locos for several years now. What ever happened to the "truth in advertising" ethic? Both Lionel and MTH have been guilty of misleading advertising for several years now, and sadly, they continue to get away with it, seemingly with nobody noticing or complaining.

Bill in FtL

Exactly where did it specifically say TMCC?  You won't be able to run the F3 with a LionChief universal controller either.  More "pants on fire?"

The catalog came out in 2013 (where this text came from, probably written 6-12 months earlier) when TMCC hadn't really established itself in S to any great degree.  The O Gauge world has been griping about incompatibility since the beginning.  There are people there that won't buy one or the other because of it.  Others have made the adjustment to include both.

Regardless, MTH has a slight edge.  You can control TMCC/Legacy with additional hardware (which is what I have done when I was messing around with O) added to the DCS system, but you can't control DCS with TMCC/Legacy.

However, neither Lionel or MTH is going to make their systems 100% controller compatible with each other.  It's the tyranny of proprietary command systems.

DCC has become the common denominator.  MTH learned the hard way in HO that no DCC capability meant no sale.  HO'ers weren't about to have DCS shoved down their throats.  Lionel actually reached out to the S Scale community to get DCC operational with TMCC/Legacy specifically (at first) for the S market.

Rusty

My S layout will have AC, DC, DCC, and Legacy capabilities. I am not worried in the least about DCS, as all MTH units from the start will operate on DCC.

Nor would I worry about installing TMCC in anything that doesn't have it when I can buy a DCC sound decoder for considerably less than $100 if you know where to shop.

If Legacy/ TMCC ever fails in any of my locos, it gets DCC. Same for MTH as well.

Lionel actually opened up all of the Legacy commands to everyone a year or so ago. So anyone could incorporate Legacy control into their OS if they like. DCC is the universal common denominator. It has the best motor control, smallest footprint, best sound and sound variety out of all the digital systems. You can also change sounds and entire decoders rather easily. It is not as user friendly as Legacy or DCS though. They have a lot going for them in the ease of use and fun to operate realm. The least known but best interface IMHO is the Ring Engineering Rail Pro system. If their sounds catch up to the best DCC sounds that's a really tempting system. It totally removes everything I don't like about DCC and does things that DCC simply can't do.

It's all what is most important to the individual making the decision... Plenty of choices.

Any ETA update on the F3's?

Andy of MTH has informed me today that the first shipment of Jersey Central units will arrive at the corporate office next week.  He will be sending a an ABA to me with 2 powered units and a DCS system for my S Gaugian Review. 

Any news?

MTH is closed today.  I plan to call Andy tomorrow and follow up.

OK, I just communicated with Andy Edleman at MTH.  The container with the engines just cleared customs over the weekend and he hopes to ship me an ABA with 2 powered units and a DCS system tomorrow.  I hope to have it by the weekend.

 

According to Charlie Nassau on the 3-rail side, only the Jersey Central F3's are due by January 31st.

https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/t...u-jan-31st#lastReply

*Sigh*  With the Chinese New Year beginning on the 28th where China shuts down for a month, that probably means yet another 2-3 month wait for the Santa Fe's. (Unless they're on the water now.)

Rusty

Yes, I will be getting  Jersey Central locomotives. If I get them early enough I plan to take them to the Plano train show.

Hope we hear some "good news" soon. New Lionel catalog Wed and MTH A/F F-3s. It has been a long wait !

When/if they finally do come in, lots of folks will be complaining about the hit to their wallets.

I used to enjoy the CNJ F-units in Jim Thorpe, PA.  Never saw them running, but loved walking alone side them and taking in that orange and blue paint scheme.  

The S scale CNJ F3's are already listed on MTH's "less than 5 in stock" list, just days after their arrival at MTH. It looks like MTH isn't planning on holding any extra inventory on these, seems like they've cut things pretty close!

Bill in FtL

Anything show up in the mail yet Bill????

Ben

Ben, they were shipped last Monday so I expect to see them the first of the week.

Saw this on Facebook. Taken at the big Amherst show this weekend.

MTH abandoned the S electro coupler, it supposedly is one of the things that held up production of the F3's.

An SHS F3 looks exactly the same if the Flyer compatible coupler is mounted in the pilot.

Rusty

I watched a YouTube video buy a popular train reviewer names James, he was at the Big E show and spoke with Andy E from MTH, Andy gave a run down of what to expect catalog wise from MTH this year.  He discussed G,O,HO but made no mention of S.  Not very encouraging.

Ben  

NotInWI posted:

I watched a YouTube video buy a popular train reviewer names James, he was at the Big E show and spoke with Andy E from MTH, Andy gave a run down of what to expect catalog wise from MTH this year.  He discussed G,O,HO but made no mention of S.  Not very encouraging.

Ben  

I noticed that as well Ben.  I'm not sure how MTH intends to "gauge" the interest level if they never get products to market. I am really getting tired of dealing with MTH. They have been a pain in my side since they announced Proto 3/2 back in 2004. You never know what they are going to do. They took over SHS in 2012- at this rate it will take 20 years to re-run the existing tooling.

I really wish I didn't like 1:64 scale so much. Life would be so much easier if I could get as interested in HO. I might have to force myself though. All the new products and innovations in HO are mind boggling. 

To my eyes, that looks like a frame mounted coupler in a Kadee compatible box.

As you say, we'll know when Bill gets his sample.

Rusty

My production samples arrived today and are still in the box.  I will let you know soon.

Tease!

Well, the three powered F3s are out of their boxes with the DCS system.  There is a lot of learning to do.  Not at all like the Lionel systems I am used to.

No, there are no operating electric couplers.  They do come with those awful little wheels and couplers though.  Plus some extra tires.

I will write the review for the S Gaugian so you will have to get the May/June magazine for all I find out.

Here are the pictures:

Yes there were parts with their scale couplers and instructions for installing them and the scale wheel sets that are in the box.

Roundhouse Bill posted:

I will write the review for the S Gaugian so you will have to get the May/June magazine for all I find out.

 

By then MAYBE the Santa Fe's will be shipped....

Rusty

Rusty

Its odd, according to Ro's website, they only show the JC B unit in stock.  I am curious if this is/will be a sell out for MTH.  The order of the release of the road names is so bizarre.  After all this time I would think they would wanna get the SF, NYC and UP into our hot little hands.  I mean, JC first, and no real timeframe when the others will be here...so strange.  

I wish MTH's involvement on this forum (or on Facebook for that matter) was still existent.  It would be nice to get some info from them about what's up....you know, other than what the last 5 things they have in stock are!!

I will still likely get all the powered UP units.  

Ben. 

OK, Give me some time and I will take questions.  You can't believe how much leaning you have to do.  DCS is a whole new ball game.

With the latest MTH 5 or less in stock list, the JC units are already listed. Maybe a small production run?

 

Rich

Roundhouse Bill posted:

OK, Give me some time and I will take questions.  You can't believe how much leaning you have to do.  DCS is a whole new ball game.

I'll make the sacrifice - give them to me and I will test them on DCC and save you the learning curve!!!

Brendan