SANTA FE FT's question

Looks like the Santa Fe FT's kept to themselves, even after the Santa Fe replaced the drawbars with couplers.

 

I don't see any nose MU capability, either.

 

Rusty

The Santa Fe's FT's never had drawbars.  They were always equipped with couplers on all units.

 

Stuart

 

 

I have seen one -- only one -- photo of a Santa Fe consist which had an FTA-FTB-FTB-GP7 coupled together in what appeared to be multiple-unit control.

 

DISCLAIMER: Since I did not see this consist in person, I cannot guarantee that it was not a three-unit FT towing a dead Geep to the shop either DIT (dead in train with dead engine cock positioned to limit buildup of brake cylinder pressure) or DIC (dead in consist, with m-u hoses connected, jumper cable plugged in, engine shut down, and isolation switch in ISO position).  It could have been a working consist, or it could have been a dead engine move as described above.  We'll never know for sure.

 

However, to address the main inquiry of this thread -- Santa Fe did not normally mix FT's with any other diesel-electric locomotives.  They were built with manual transition and were never modified with automatic transition.  The Engineer would have to "shift" them from series to parallel to series parallel to series parallel shunt (I can't remember in what order, but the transition lever had 4 positions and the ammeter was used by the Engineer to determine when to make transition.  I had to answer written and oral questions on this over 40 years ago to become promoted to Engineer, but never actually made a trip on an FT, the last of which had been sent back to EMD on new GP35's 5 years before I began working at the railroad.).  In the simplest terms, this changed the way the traction motors were connected together aboard a locomotive and enabled the motors to work together efficiently as speed increased or decreased.

 

All other Santa Fe diesel-electric road locomotives through SD40/SD45/F45 were built with automatic transition (except the F3's, which were modified with automatic transition as soon as the F7 began to be delivered).  Other Santa Fe locomotives through the late 1960's were equipped with transition levers, so they could have been used with FT's, however the practice was to keep the FT's together and not mixed with other units.  Another reason to isolate the FT's was the cooling system, which required the Fireman to pass through the units frequently, monitoring the water temperature gauges, and adjust the manually-operated radiator shutters and use the two manual fan clutch levers on each unit to start or stop the front and/or rear cooling fans.  Apparently, conventional wisdom was that, if a locomotive equipped with automatic transition, air operated shutters, and automatic fans was leading an FT, the engine crew might likely not have paid close attention to the needs of trailing FT's, with resulting damage to the FT's.

Here is where we start losing specifics on what was or was not possible "back in the day".   I've been involved with locomotives since 1989, so I cut my teeth on 60 series control.   "Old" for me was having to figure out some old lease POS with panel mounted modules, or a switcher on a shortline.  All of this stuff was equipped with 27 pin MU connections, or in the case of some of the switchers, no MU.

 

Looking in an old EMD FT "Locomotive Operator's Manual", it appears that the "B" unit connections, as delivered from the factory, were equipped with 21 pin MU cables at the end of the "B" unit, plus a "field loop coupler", which based on the five minutes of my life I dedicated to looking at this schematic, served the same function as a "Trainline Complete" circuit on an F40.

 

Here is a link to the operator's manual:

 

http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/manual/ft-om.pdf

 

 

So, unless a railroad modified the end receptacles, or utilized special MU cables, it was not initially possible for a GP7 to MU with the FT.  I know it can be done, as NP utilized FTA - FTB - GP7/9 consists regularly.  So, somebody did something to allow this to happen.

 

I suspect Hot Water knows what specifically was done on various railroads, such as on the NP with the geeps, and CB&Q, who ran FTA-FTB-F2 consists, and what may have been done to the locomotives over time to upgrade electricals.  Way before my time, and up until this morning, never gave it a bit of thought.  

 

In the case of the NP, of the photos I've seen of the FT / GP consists, the FT was always leading for the reasons you site.  But I'm sure not going to bet my paycheck that a Geep didn't lead at some point.  

 

Now whether or not any of what I've written above was ever done on the Santa Fe, I have no idea.  Sure is an interesting question though.     

 

Regards,

Jerry

Although it has now been more than 50 years since I had much to due with "F" units, especially "FT" units, I do remember that it certainly no easy chore for railroads to add MU connections on the front of "F" units. 

 

Also, I remember that the MU sanding function was trainlined by air connections and NOT electrically through the MU jumper cables.

 

Another item to remember was, the "FT" units had manual cooling fans for the engine cooling system. The cooling fans were NOT electric motor driven, but belt driven. Thus the Fireman had to go back through each and every unit in his consist and monitor the water temp gauges and "clutch in" or "clutch out" the fan/fans as required.

Off topic, but this thread made me reflect a bit...

 

The Alco's I run on a daily basis have automatic transition... sort of.  As a transition point is reached, the revs decrease, you hear a loud POP inside the electrical cabinet, your amp meter adjusts, and the engine revs back up.  Almost like a manual transition being done for you.  Alco's have very strange electrical circuits.  (Truly terrible wheel slip circuits.) 

 

Very good point, and thanks for bringing that subject up. The "FT" and "F2" and "F3" units all had truly manual transition, where the Engineer had to first reduce the throttle setting (below #5 if I recall), then move the transition lever to the next appropriate position (either UP or DOWN), then return the throttle back to Run 8.

I went through my extensive Santa Fe library and didn't see 1 picture of any other units mixed in with an FT consist. Long before why time.... thats why I have the Santa Fe library

I know a 96-year-old retired Santa Fe Engineer and Road Foreman of Engines, and I am going to ask him if he can ever recall FT's m-ued with any other Santa Fe diesels.

 

When Santa Fe still had some FT's on the Los Angeles Division, the ones I saw around Fullerton were always solid consists of FT's.  There was a local passenger train on the Fourth District that flew low between flag stops and had a heavyweight passenger consist.  This train normally used an FTA-FTB rednose, until they were returned to freight service about 1953.  Through Freight trains often had blue FTA-FTB-FTB engine consists.

 

I did not know all the EMD model designations back then, but I knew that an EMD freight engine with 4 portholes, a different kind of pilot, and no vent pane on the cab side window was a World War II engine, so I'm sure these were FT's.

 

The only other operating FT's I ever sat were on the Rio Grande, in 1961.  At Salt Lake City, the Prospector was awaiting departure behind an immaculate FTA-FTB-F3B-F3A consist.  So, there was either a special jumper cable between the FT's and F3's, or the FT's had been re-wired during an overhaul.  After the 54 years that have passed, all we can do at this point is speculate.  The F3's were manual transition locomotives, when built.  Some railroads (Santa Fe) converted their F3's to automatic transition, but I do not know whether Rio Grande did.  But, as gnpnut pointed out, there's another mixed consist, with the FT's in controlling position.

 

(The blue text is just highlighting. A lot of Forumites don't like reading long posts, so the blue is for quick scans.)

No nose m-u on Santa Fe FT's.  They had already begun to be traded back to EMD by the time ATSF started adding nose m-u to F-units.

FT's could be MU'ed with F2, F3 and F7 models under some conditions, e.g. similar in gearing, dynamic brakes, and transition.  I have an F7 EMD Engineman's Manual and the instructions for doing so are summarized in the attached PDF.  

 

I am not sure how Northern Pacific MU'ed a GP9 with their FT's, but it did occur as gnnpnut stated.  There are pictures of it in Dale Sander's book The Northern Pacific. (The Sumas switcher was ferried to/from Auburn for service in an FTA-FTB-GP9-FTB-FTA consist.) Perhaps the FT's were electrically modified by then, as my GP9 EMD Engineman's Manual does not indicate that a GP9 could be set to manual transition. I believe the GP9 was working (i.e. not isolated) under these conditions; I will ask Jack Christensen (former NP RFE) next time I see him.

 

This is an excellent thread. By the way, Tom, no need to shorten your posts, they are terrific as-is.  Thanks! 

GN Man:

 

Thanks for the reply.  I went looking for a GP7 manual, and lo and behold, here is what was said:

 

The GP7 locomotive was basically designed for single unit operation, but can be arranged for multiple unit operation. When properly equipped, the GP7 may operate in any position with other GP7, FT, F2, F3, BL2, or F7 units.

It will generally be unnecessary to make on the spot decisions as to the type of units that a particular GP7 is equipped to operate with in multiple, as this will have been included in the original specifications of that unit. However, before attempting multiple unit operation among the various models there are four important items to consider, which are as follows:

1. Units having 6 BL or 6 SL brake equipment cannot be operated in multiple with units having 24 RL brake equipment, and vice versa.

2. Unless all units are to be operated in automatic transition, a method of making manual transition at the proper time must be available. (Art. 106).

3. The proper power plant jumper cables must be available (i.e. 27:27 or 27:21, etc.).

4. If the units of a multiple consist are of different gear ratios and/or different continuous ratings, the locomotive should not be operated so that the unit geared for the HIGHEST minimum continuous speed is overloaded by being operated below that speed, or short time rating; nor must the locomotive be permitted to operate at a speed in excess of that for the unit having the LOWEST maximum permissible speed.

So, there we have it, nothing precludes an FT from MU'ing, but there were evidently 27 to 21 pin jumper cables to be utilized as required, and a method to make manual transition.  I'm not sure if GPs had this unless specified, as they had a "series forstalling" feature, but I'm not sure that they had the equipment referenced in the F7 manual unless special ordered. 

 

I agree, this has been a most interesting thread.  I don't know about anybody else, but I learned some stuff today thanks to this thread. 

Regards,

Jerry

 

Found this while looking up FT info.  FT's going to the great diesel shop in the sky...

 

Rusty

Item 1 was common to all railroads, and was an annoyance to most roads which typically chose 6-BL air brake schedule for their geeps.  UPRR, GN,and  ATSF equipped their geeps with 24-RL, the same air brake used on F3's and F7.  These roads did not have the annoyance of air brake incompatibility. However, this would not have been a problem with FT's because FT's had 8-EL air brake schedule.  I am pretty certain NP had 6-BL on its GP7's and maybe also GP9's.  We know NP m-ued GP7's with FT's, but did they also m-u them with their F3's, F7's and F9's?

 

Item 2 tells me that all trailing units, whether FT or other, would make transition  in response to the transition lever of the controlling FT unit -- or -- the GP7 would ignore the  manual transition signals sent via jumpers and make automatic forward and backward transition at its own proper time while passing the transition signals on to FT's to the rear.