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I just visited the B&O museum and noted the "colored" car on display there.   It was enlightening as to the different safety standards employed for " white" and "colored" cars.  I was informed by a volunteer that these cars were also where you went to smoke if you were "white" as smoking was banned in the "white" cars.  I know for lines that operated in the segregated south that they had separate and unequal stations in the south.  My question is for "coloreds" traveling from the segregated south to the north once they crossed to the north were they allowed to move to the others cars or did the railroads maintain segregation.once north?   for "coloreds" traveling south did you board a "colored" only car in the non segregated north?  Wondering how the railroads dealt with this ugliness?

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I grew up in a segregated state.  As a kid, you don't ask...that is just the way it was.

It was history.   My interest in that era is confined to center baggage door "Jim Crow" combines.  My mother used to visit an aunt riding in the "Jim Crow" combine on a mixed train branch line in Kentucky.  I have modeled one, planning to use one end for coal miners traveling to and from work, and the other for the general public (ladies shopping in white dresses who might not like seats covered with coal dust) to take into the big city. 

Originally Posted by dgauss:

Give it a rest! We are all victims of our experience. We can choose to be positive or re-hash the ugly past. I hope this Forum does not decline into the racial politics. Orange/blue vs. yellow/purple is bad enough.

JMHO, Dave G.

You sure went down that road quick,

He was simply talking historical facts and I didn't see any divisive racial issue issue he bought up, he is  just seeking info

Last edited by cbojanower

When I was a kid (early '60s before the civil rights act) we lived in the south for about 2 years. That sort of thing was common everywhere, even drinking fountains and restrooms, not just railroads. From time to time when things like this are brought up I find myself shocked and offended by it. I find it hard to believe things were this way even though I have seen it with my own eyes. We have come a long way and I think unfortunately we still have a long way to go. It is part of our history, we can't deny that, but we can keep trying to improve things to ensure equality for everyone.

It seems to me this question came up on the MR forums a year or two back. Someone who apparently had good knowledge of the issue said that on some trains crossing from north to south, the seating would be pre-arranged so people didn't have to move - a black passenger taking say the IC from Chicago to Mississippi would be seated in a 'colored only' car at the start of the trip so they didn't have to move. Not sure if that's correct, but it would make sense. Apparently dining cars weren't segregated until they crossed into a southern state, then a divider would be put up or something to separate the races.

 

"Colored" cars were often very old, I know a number of 19th century passenger cars that are now in museums were only preserved because they were used for black passengers into the 1940's-50's in every day service.

Santa Fe bought stainless steel Pullman Standard divided chair cars in 1948 for the Texas Chief.  The divider was a curtain instead of a bulkhead, so, after segregation ended, it was easy to convert them for use by all passengers.  

 

Santa Fe was caught and fined in the 1960's for less obvious segregation.  The El Capitan, Chief, San Francisco Chief (which did not run in southern states) had reserved seats, and Santa Fe's reservation bureau had a code so that a white passenger would not be seated next to a non-white passenger.  It stopped after the citation and fine.

 

As others have pointed out, it was unfair, it was stopped, and now nobody gives a second thought to sharing seating with another passenger of any race.

Last edited by Number 90

Railroads were in some ways ahead of the curve on desegregation.  In 1941 the Supreme Court in Mitchell required railroads to offer first class accommodations to blacks as well as whites.  Some roads met this by desegregating their Pullman service, others by setting up segregated Pullman service, and no doubt others simply ignores the issue as  much as possible.  In 1950 the Supreme Court in Henderson struck down segregation in dining cars.  Neither of these dealt with segregated second class accommodations which was how most blacks travelled, and there was still the restraints imposed by "unofficial segregation rules".

 

Henderson is an interesting case for the modeler because the different rules would result in a different set up for the diner depending on when during the 1940s was being modeled.  The case actually quotes the different Southern policies in effect at different times during the decade.

 

I got interested in the history of segregation and the railroads when researching the history of the 1947 Freedom Train.  Many southern towns where the train was scheduled to stop had set up separate times to see the train's displays for the different races, or different lines.  Blacks would have to wait until the whites had seen the train.  When the Government managers of the FT heard this, they told these towns they had to treat blacks and whites the same or the train would not stop there.  Many of the town ignored this warning and kept their segregation policy.  The FT did not stop at those towns.  This was the right thing to do, but considering the times, I thought this was a courageous thing for the Government to do.

 

Ron

Then there was California. Most public facilities were not segregated pre-1960's, but where you lived was another issue. Since the PE and LARy ran in greater Los Angeles, access wasn't a big problem. Analysis says the Los Angeles riots of 1965/67 were largely related to the loss of the street cars since that's how most of the people in the area got to work.

While I was not old enough to remember real segregation, I still remember seeing two distinctly different drinking fountains at a Sears-type  store as a child.

 

Here in Ogden we had a  club called  "Porters and Waiters" while considered a black only place for the crews on the RR's who were in town, it became a hot spot and we are still proud of it.

 

 

Last edited by cbojanower

If it remains civil I don't think we will have to worry too much.  If you are interested in more detail with respect to this issue and railroad history I'd recommend the following:

 

Railroads in the African American experience : a photographic journey – Kornweibel, 2010(edition 2010)

 

Recollections of a Sleeping Car Porter – Thorne (pseudonym), Fulton - 1892(edition 1892)

Memories of a retired Pullman porter – Turner – 1954

 

Rising from the rails : Pullman porters and the making of the Black middle class – Tye - 2004

 

  The first one is curious as far as the subtitle goes.  It is true that there are photographs but it is a written history and I've never understood why the publisher felt the need to tack on the photographic part.  From the standpoint of an overall discussion of the subject and the railroads it is probably the best place to start.

 

The next two are first person accounts of railroad life and the last one is a history of the Pullman porters both from a railroad as well as a social point of view.  I've read all of them and I think they are all well done.

Originally Posted by smd4:
Originally Posted by trains4fun:

I believe Detroit/oil companies helped take out the street cars.  Bought them out.   

That would be a grossly mistaken assumption.

Sorry, not an assumption, fact on PBS.  

In fact, as I found the link it was nation wide, thanks.

 

http://www.kcet.org/shows/huel...huell-114---120.html

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?f...ed&v=wFhsrbtQObI

 

 

 

Mark-I think you need to indicate when and where.  In my notebook of obscure railroad information I have a chart from a southern road in the post-civil war era that shows railroad employees broken down by race as well as position.  There are no black engineers,  conductors or station agents, but there are numerous black firemen, brakemen and more surprisingly baggage masters and assistant station positions.  You also have blacks in a number of the craft positions in the machinery department as well as the expected numbers in more menial positions.  One thing to note though is that this was during reconstruction when the state was effectively controlled by the U.S. Army.  I do wonder if during the war there might have been occasions when some southern railroad with its staff depleted that used slaves or free blacks to operate trains.

 

There is a web page on the first black engineer in Florida here:  http://www.heraldtribune.com/a...50217/NEWS/502170428

Supposedly there is a reference in Bebee's works about black engineers running some minor trains.  I haven't tracked it down.

 

 

Bill N - Thank you for the interesting article provided. seems the gentleman in the article was running an industrial locomotive for a private company. From the description, it was woodburner and may have been burning scraps from the factory. And as cited above, in the reconstruction post-bellum period, Black people got opportunities that were yanked away, subsequently. In fact, that is what produced the Jim crow cars! I was referring to the approximate 1885-1985 period, where a Black engineer just did not happen. In today's world, Black engineers are more common-place, on both our Chicago-land commuter operation (Metra) and the major trunk lines. Apparently, hand-firing a steam locomotive was a sufficiently rotten job at the turn of the century, that it was deemed ok for a few Black men to slip in as firemen. A side corrollary, women were engineers for a while and seem to have completely vanished since the 1990's. 

Originally Posted by wild mary:
 

  There are times when I get just as much enjoyment with the historical portion as I do with the trains themselves.

 

History is my first love overall, the trains are just part of that for me. My layout which will start construction will be as tight a representation as I can get for Tennessee life in the WW2 era. My parents were little kids in that timeframe but they remember all the details very well, I'm milking them for all their memories of the place and time.

Along with the original topic is that the RR I will be modeling (the ET&WNC, or 'Tweetsie' as it was known by the locals) simply didn't have segregation as such. Yeah, they did have one car that could have been used for Jim Crow purposes for how it was laid out, blacks simply didn't ride the RR all that much. Ironically they had at least one black guy who worked on the locomotives and for sure at least fired them from time to time. But simply put, not a lot of black folks lived along the line to speak of. You just don't find period photos of blacks anywhere near the trains, except for the black employees the RR had (which probably weren't many). Draw whatever conclusions you will for the reasons behind it, but it's a simply fact. Had segregation apparently been an issue on that RR, I'd be sure to address it, just as I am modeling scale MPs to keep the scale servicemen away from the scale locals, something which happened in the South a lot in WW2, regardless of color.

I grew up in Pass Christian, Ms and loved to ride down to the railroad station to watch the L&N's Humminbird come. 

One very hot evening I was there and went inside to get a drink of water. The fountains each had a sign over reading 'White' or 'Colored' but the 'White' was not working so,

I went to the other fountain and got my thirst sated. You must understand that being 

of American Indian heritage I did not think anything about this, plus 'The Pass' was pretty much open as were not other towns in Mississippi. So, while drinking, I heard the

voice of the stationmaster shouting at me: "Bernard, get away from there you'll get germs"!...i'm gonna call your mama and daddy if you don't!!

i finished my drink, turned around to the hard stares of those in the room and went outside to wait for the trains arrival. When I got home later, my mom told she had received a call from Mr. '---' but that I had done nothing wrong. You see, she had grown up in Oklahoma and had seen how the Indians (my people) had been treated.

 

i was 12 years of age at this time. 

 

This has been quite an interesting thread to read and my thanks to its author for posting it.

Very much enjoyed Chris/Cbjanower's posting of the Porters and Waiters Club in Ogden, UT. This brings to mind that it was Pullman porters who helped spread the word about Black jazz and blues music, by bringing and selling 78 rpm recordings to places where there was no exposure to such music.

        Also brings to mind the biography of Robert Jr. Lockwood, a Mississippi Delta Blues musician and adopted son of Robert Johnson, one of the most influential musicians of the 20th century, who recorded in 1937. Johnson was the author of "Crossroads" and "Sweet Home Chicago", which have been covered by innumerable musicians, including Eric Clapton. Robert Jr. Lockwood left the Delta during WW II and found his way to Cheyenne, WY, employed as a track worker for the Union Pacific. In his off hours, he played at bars around town. He was a broad gauge musician, who played blues, jazz and even country and western. He was enthusiastically embraced for his musical talent by the citizenry of Cheyenne. A rare event where a Black man was embraced during the dark period of segregation, due to bringing unique talent to an entertainment starved town.

BTW, this thread brings to mind why the hobby (obsession?) of a pursuit of the study of railroading is so all-engrossing and can cover a full life-time. Railroading embraces aesthetics, design, finance, engineering, geology, sociology, history, politics, adventure, travel, romance, geography, the life cycle of business, biographies, and probably a few other areas of inquiry which I can't think of, now! Hard to beat!

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