Sensor Track Problem

More testing this morning.

Here's a rough sketch of the outer loop of our layout.

I have disconnected the inner loop at the 072 switch. So all I am dealing with is the outer loop as pictured.

I have disconnected all the bus feed wires both power and ground. I then connected the Powermaster to one drop with the Legacy base connection to the ground.

When powered directly from one drop as described the sensor track works perfectly. 

If I reconnect just one of the power or ground feeds sensor track operation becomes unreliable. Sometimes not reading a loco and sometimes showing the loco passed in the opposite direction than it actually did so not triggering crossing signal I have it set up to do.

It's almost like when the bus wire is connected it causes interference to the sensor track. I have checked continuity of both the ground and power bus. And that there is no continuity between them. 

It's a pretty basic set up so its a bit strange. 

Anyone spot anything I may have missed?

Nick

Nick,

The sensor tracks definitely are finicky.  I had all the same issues as you.  Then I sent all 10 to Lionel and got them back and they said they repaired them.  I put them on my layout and all worked great.  BUT then I added a few accessories to an ASC and the power for that ASC was on the same transformer because I have a ground line that ties everything into it around the layout for accessories.  They started acting crazy again.  I separated the power for that ASC to another transformer and they all worked again.  There seems to be some issue with these things and interference with the wiring.  Mind you there is nothing crazy or extensive on my wiring, just basic feeds.  And I followed the instructions with each module on wiring.  Every time I add anything to the main transformer that feeds track power I have to retest all the sensor tracks to verify they still work.

I originally had 2 power districts and reverted to a single one.

I also added the 2 Culvert loaders to an ASC one day.  Each ground was assigned a different port on the ASC, but they both had a common power at the ASC  (each bank of 4 uses the same Power).  The loaders started to act up, would not work, or come on when they weren't suppose to and sensor tracks started acting up again.   I separated the common on separate banks on the ASC and all returned to normal.

I have no idea what's going on but there definitely some kind of issue with the common and the LCS system.  Its like signals are back feeding or causing weird interference when they should not.

Try this.

Disconnect all your feeds and just do 1 single feed to power the layout.  If that does not work, try eliminating your powermaster out of the mix and just connect the powerhouse directly.  Basically what I am saying is just make sure the only thing connected to the track is a single ground and power and the legacy base.  Make sure the transformer common has no other things attached to it.

If my theory is correct then the tracks will start to work correctly.  Then add back in one piece at a time.

Like I said above, I had to change some wiring around in order for some of these LCS modules to work and the sensor tracks to not act up even though I should not have had to do that according to the instructions.  Everything is working today but it was a struggle and a lot of trial and error with the wiring.

I now keep everything else on a separate ZW-L and only track power on a separate one

Its not just your setup.   Let us know if you make any progress.

Thanks Sean, Doing as you suggest with one wire for power and one for ground (train set style) with no bus lines or anything else connected, the sensor track works fine. 

I can see adding DCS and my inner loop back into the layout is going to be "fun".....

Makes me feel a bit better I am not alone having issues.

Atb

Nick

Sean, Here's a update. Spent several hours over the last few days experimenting.

You know when you suddenly have a brainwave as to the possible cause of a problem. Well tonight I was crawling around under the layout and noticed a mains power cable (230V AC) that runs to a surround sound, DVD player, and PlayStation that are mounted on a shelf under the far end of the layout. With work I do a lot of industrial installations (mechanical/fabrication)but I pay attention to the "Sparkies" and they seperate mains power, low voltage and data in different containment. Data is never put near power as you can get "crosstalk".  

I switched off and disconnected the power lead and then reconnected the layout bus wiring. I left the inner loop disconnected. I then powered up the layout and the sensor track worked perfectly!

However if I connect the inner loop the sensor track acts up again. 

The power is isolated between the inner and outer loops by the filler piece between the two switches. However the common/ground is not isolated. I have seperate common/ground buses for each loop on the layout.

I think I will run my Dremel  through the two outer rails as if I disconnect the inner loop everything works correctly. So both loops are completely electrically isolated from each other. 

Glad to be making progress

Nick

There's no reason in the world that I can think you need a separate ground.  Most layouts I run across run a common ground all around, AAMOF TMCC/Legacy depends on a common ground all around the layout!  Something else is in play here...

Thanks John. I already had a seperate ground bus wire per loop when the layout was constructed. Obviously it doesn't do much as the two loops are connected on the ground side by the track. 

I understand what your saying so before I resort to the Dremel I will switch over to one common ground bus for both loops. Will see what happens then. 

Nick

Somewhere in e-train software thread a terminator came into play to eliminate noise in LCS devices. Much like a computer SCSI system needs. Jon Z was in on it. I don't know if it is unique to the e-train system only.

Troll through that thread.

What is the sensor track connected to? a WiFi?

Ok, it's the high rail app developer here is the terminator Lionel Cust service can send

http://www.highrailcompany.com...will-not-stay-armed/

LCS Transmission Terminator thread

Hi Carl,  Thanks for the info. I only have 1 sensor track and the Wifi module hooked up at the moment.

I definitely think "noise" is the problem. As removing that mains cable made a big difference. I can see the sensor track output with the LCS app. So I can see when it starts to malfunction as it scrambles the engine number and or name and direction of travel.

I think there is another issue with the inner loop. But that needs further investigation. 

Nick

Hi Nick,

GRJ didn't say if he made any. he has the numbers for the connectors to make your own terminator. It may be worth a call to Lionel and get one to plug into the WiFi port as that's the "last" device in your configuration.

I can't see anything obvious with the inner loop power configuration. Does it have another dedicated brick and powermaster?

Nick,

tell me more about the crossover switch pairs. Remotes fired with SC-2, command, remotes with control wires wired to together to one manual controller to fire simultaneously, etc.

Also, grab your meter and check the phasing of the two loops powered via the center rail to center rail. Low voltage or 34-36 volts?

Carl, Inner loop is configured exactly the same as the outer. With it's own Powerhouse 135 and Powermaster.

Crossover switches are setup as they came out of the box. They are non-command remote type. But I have not got any further. I have a brand new ASC that eventually I may wire in or upgrade the switches to command with ERR kits.

I am pretty sure things are in phase but I will double check when I get home later on.

Nick

Moonman posted:

Hi Nick,

GRJ didn't say if he made any. he has the numbers for the connectors to make your own terminator. It may be worth a call to Lionel and get one to plug into the WiFi port as that's the "last" device in your configuration.

I can't see anything obvious with the inner loop power configuration. Does it have another dedicated brick and powermaster?

Why not post the pin numbers and the size of the capacitor here?

If I knew the size of the capacitor, I'd post it.   I'm also wondering what that little wire sticking out is for, do you suppose that's just a handle to yank the plug out?

I think that was just a handle. I remember thinking it odd that the termination is a capacitor. Not a transmission line characteristic impedance termination...like 100 ohms or something.

Usually, the termination would be a resistor, and perhaps a blocking cap.  I guess the cap did the job...

Carl, Center rail to centre rail reading is 1.1V .

Did a further bit of testing. Again just with the outer loop. The sensor track is a lot more reliable now the mains cable that ran under the layout is disconnected. Now and again it will throw a wobble and will normaly show the track was crossed in wrong direction on the iPad compared with the actual direction the loco crossed the track. It will also occasionally garble the engine number. 

The more I watch this the more I am convinced it's "noise".

I will request a terminator for the track from Lionel. 

Thanks for the advice guys.

Nick

Nick12DMC posted:

Carl, Center rail to centre rail reading is 1.1V .

Did a further bit of testing. Again just with the outer loop. The sensor track is a lot more reliable now the mains cable that ran under the layout is disconnected. Now and again it will throw a wobble and will normaly show the track was crossed in wrong direction on the iPad compared with the actual direction the loco crossed the track. It will also occasionally garble the engine number. 

The more I watch this the more I am convinced it's "noise".

I will request a terminator for the track from Lionel. 

Thanks for the advice guys.

Nick

Its definitely noise interference.  I proved that with Lionel Engineers on the phone with me when they sent me a diagnostic program and we could see it while the trains were running over the sensor tracks and they confirmed that was why they were acting weird.   Finding the cause is another issue.  The filter from Lionel was for a very specific issue and not related to this, but its free from Lionel and can't hurt adding it.   It just gets plugged into the last LCS component in the chain.  It has a little pigtail on it just to help pulling it out and is not an antenna or does anything.  Looks like a small capacitor just attached to an LCS connector.

I would press it with Lionel support like I did and get the engineers in California to help you and try to diagnose if you have no success.

Sean

If someone has this filter, can you tell me what the value of the capacitor is?

https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/t...nsmission-terminator

The last time we talked about this we came up with .01uF and is connected between pin #4 and pin #5.

Sean, Is the 'noise' issue just confined to the sensor track or is it a PDI bus issue? 

If it's the sensor track, could it be that the electronics in the track are in close proximity to the rails? Maybe the 'noise' is being picked up from the track common or power. This would sort of make sense from what I found with the mains power lead close to the track common and power buses.

I wonder if some sort of shielding or screening for the sensor track circuit board would help?

If it's a PDI bus issue are the cables screened?

Just a few thoughts that might be totally wrong!

Nick

Nick,

Are you converting to 60hz or dropping the voltage only and using 50hz?

Nick12DMC posted:

Sean, Is the 'noise' issue just confined to the sensor track or is it a PDI bus issue? 

If it's the sensor track, could it be that the electronics in the track are in close proximity to the rails? Maybe the 'noise' is being picked up from the track common or power. This would sort of make sense from what I found with the mains power lead close to the track common and power buses.

I wonder if some sort of shielding or screening for the sensor track circuit board would help?

If it's a PDI bus issue are the cables screened?

Just a few thoughts that might be totally wrong!

Nick

Honestly I don't know.  Here is a screenshot of the Diagnostic tool they sent me and I used with them on the phone.

It shows all my LCS modules at the top and when you select one its show tons of detail with that module.  So as we ran trains over the track we would refresh and look at the Noise level.  They definitely said that on the tracks not working right that the values were too high.  You can see it shows a lot of information like voltage and what the track command is set too, etc.  That's why I said to press with them and they can probably look at your system too.  They had me send all 10 sensor tracks back to them and then a week later I got them back with no explanation expect they were repaired or replaced according to design specs.  So I have no idea what was done.

They had me selecting certain buttons in the action column at certain times (I can't remember exactly how to use the tool, I was just following instructions).  I think we were clicking the Clear Errors button then clicking Get Status or Get Info.

When I got the tracks back everything worked perfect, but I had not yet hooked any accessories up to the ASC modules in the LCS chain.  When I did they started acting up again.  So I found if I disconnected the Power wires that go to the LCS modules (these are the wires that power the module and relays not the accessories) then the tracks worked again. 

I had all the modules powered in series from one handle on the ZW-L.  When I moved the power/ground for the modules to a separate transformer not connected to the track they all worked again.  I could repeat this failure over and over.  So that was my solution.  There is definitely a weak point in this system.  I just have no idea what it is.

I do have the filter in the last module in the chain per Lionel's instructions but that had no effect. 

The way I understood it was the locomotive passes over the IR sensors and information is read and sent by the track through the PDI bus to the Legacy base, which in turn sends out a normal signal to the engine just as if you were using the legacy remote.  So that signal is getting messed up. 

Lionel was very helpful, but I really don't have a solid conclusion to exactly what was happening.

As a result, anytime I add any LCS module or wire up an accessory to a module, I have to retest all the sensor tracks to verify they still work.  So far they have.

But again not sure why I add to separate the power for the LCS modules to a transformer NOT connected to the track. 

gunrunnerjohn posted:

If someone has this filter, can you tell me what the value of the capacitor is?

Unfortunately mine is on the last sensor track in my chain and its already ballasted to the layout so I can't look.

Sean, I have a Sensor Track (the one that is currently installed on the layout) tha Jon kindly sent that was checked out. So I am thinking he would have made sure it was the same as your "fixed" tracks.

Nick

Nick12DMC posted:

Sean, I have a Sensor Track (the one that is currently installed on the layout) tha Jon kindly sent that was checked out. So I am thinking he would have made sure it was the same as your "fixed" tracks.

Nick

Yup I get it but I think there are other things that can affect the tracks just based on my wiring of the Other LCS modules and how they stopped working even on the ones they sent back to me.    Order the free filter and see if it helps, but it was meant for a different issue for use with the hi-rail app.  But otherwise I would press support telling them it still is not working.  They are fun once they do work correctly.  I think I might do a video showing how I can make it fail just by wiring the LCS module power wires to the same transformer that's also attached to the track.

So you're saying that when you power the LCS modules to the same transformer that has the Legacy signal on it's U terminal, the modules get noise. And when you use a transformer without the 6 volt ac 455 KHz Legacy signal on it's U terminal, the noise goes away? What is the mystery?

I do not add my Legacy signal at the transformer.  I have my LCS devices powered from the B throttle on my ZWL.  My tracks are powered with A and D.  My track power goes through my TIU, then I add my Legacy signal to the track at the power distribution block.  I have had no issues with my LCS devices. I don't know if this would help.

Moonman posted:

Nick,

Are you converting to 60hz or dropping the voltage only and using 50hz?

 

Converting to 60Hz.

I am going to try running the PDI 12V DC power supply from a separate step down transformer. Just in case that's the source of the noise. As its DC it is not frequency dependent.

Nick

Just a small update. Preliminary results appear to support that moving the PDI 12V supply has had positive impact.

I just tried moving the unit from the same power outlet that the Legacy base was connected to another outlet. So it's still on a 60Hz supply at the moment. The seems to have improved reliability greatly. 

Question for Sean,  where is your PDI power supply plugged in relation to your Legacy Base supply?

I am thinking it can't be that simple.....and I need to get everything on the layout reconnected to do a full test. 

Nick

Nick12DMC posted:

Just a small update. Preliminary results appear to support that moving the PDI 12V supply has had positive impact.

I just tried moving the unit from the same power outlet that the Legacy base was connected to another outlet. So it's still on a 60Hz supply at the moment. The seems to have improved reliability greatly. 

Question for Sean,  where is your PDI power supply plugged in relation to your Legacy Base supply?

I am thinking it can't be that simple.....and I need to get everything on the layout reconnected to do a full test. 

Nick

I have all my power in the same power strip.  We tried separating the adapters to different plugs and all that when I was on the phone with Lionel and it did not have any effect. The problem with this issue is it is so random, sometimes you think its fixed by something you did and then all of a sudden it does not work again.

They sent me a new PDI power supply.  Had me try a new legacy base.  Had me try just running the legacy wire from base to track directly instead of through ZW-L.  None of that fixed it.

You are lucky you have just one.  Try diagnosing this with 10! haha

They did want me to keep the PDI cables away from power feeds because I sent them some videos and they saw my wire bundles.

I was about to give up after 2 months of back and forth but then once they sent my tracks back they seemed to work and I also changed from 2 power districts to one and also separated the power feeds for the LCS modules to a different transformer. 

So far everything still works. 

Sean

I know what you mean Sean. When I was dealing with the unknown fault with my Legacy base which turned out to be faulty NVRAM. I was getting nowhere as everything was really random. Things are a lot better now with a new 990 thanks to Lionel.

I have the added complication of frequency conversion and if I did away with that I would have to use step-down transformers. Either of which I suspect could be a added source of 'noise'. 

If I do decide to give up(Not in my nature I just keep plugging away at the problem ) that sensor track is going to buy the farm in a dramatic way... I won't touch it but my Wife is going to get her hands on it!  I may have been spending a bit to much time working on the problem....

Nick