Slow Down on Curves

I only caught a glimpse of the legs, but it looks like you have legs resting on the floor.  If thats the case, try junk mail.  Lift the table slightly and insert some junk mail under the legs on the low side of the table.  See if it helps.  It may not work out if the benchwork it's self is warped, but if it is flat, tilting the table a fraction of an inch may help you out.  If it does help you can invest in some adjustable height feet to add to the legs for a finished look.  

Ted, I don't think SJC thought it was flange bind, he asked for us to look beyond that, but your differential note is something I wouldn't have ever thought of here. I don't have but a few with tires on them.

  SJC could pull a traction tire & see what happens!

SJC,  Apparent as in visually to us, and not an obvious recognition of the problem.

 Have you checked and confirmed there is or isn't a un-leveled portion?, or two?

 After reading more, and watching again. I see, it seems to be happening on the el the most, but it is slowing on the ground level inner loop too to isn't it? And changing draws, moves the slow spots. 

 I still think its more due to overall drop placement, wire size, or run style, or a short on the upper track.

The inner loop slowing, looks much more like the slowdown I expect to see. The upper just seems way too slow.

 I'd like to see the number of, and placement of lock-ons, and the gauge of the feeds and the type/shape of the wire runs. Is it a star/homerun? or heavy bus? or what?

  Power supply/control types too.

A track program capture you've marked up, or a simple sketch in a paint program maybe? 

My last layout, I put feeds on some curves, by soldering a couple wire lengths to them.

I re-used them again, and being lazy, they were the only feeds in the new loop till I added turnouts.

This placement in the curve, helped tremendously for more even speeds.

A loose fitting lock on can be put on some curves, but soldering wire is always best.

Thanks all. 

I can confirm the table is not level. Actually, it may be twisted as I've shimmed the heck out of it and still can't get it perfect, or even reasonably close. I may stop by Home Depot today to see what they have that may work better than old bathroom tiles and wood scraps. I have gotten table so that the inner loop doesn't slow as dramatically in the one curve on the left side of the table but it is still noticeable with the other side. I have not put the elevated loop back on the table yet but will do so this afternoon. I may swap the "legs" on the elevated loop with something that may be a bit more accurate in height and adjustable. The outer loop is not something I really run conventional trains on (bigger command control locos only) but I will check that out also. 

Adriatic - All it is is 3 loops. Two on the table (outer is 0-42, inner 0-27) and the elevated loop (0-27). Two feeds per loop, 18 gauge wire, MTH Transformers. Wiring is star pattern. 

Just got around to watching your video SJC.  To me, it looks like the upper loop train gains speed right after the bridge, and slows down until it reaches that point again.  So I would examine that very closely.  Hope this helps a bit!

That is correct with the upper loop but I'll get to that eventually....

This morning I pulled everything off the table, down to bare plywood to try to better see where the issues are. I have things somewhat better but not ideal. I'll try to get a video (iPhone) up later this evening to show. Still pretty sure the table is warped/twisted. Debated on building a new table and retiring the 10+ year old one but considering we will be moving within the next two years and $$ is tight, I don't really want to build something new then tear it down. Would like to go with the Mianne stuff but again, $$!!!!

Appreciate everyones help. BTW, I may try the traction tire trick just for sh*ts and giggles. My Lionel 4-4-2 is a one tire loco but the gearing of that engine is really only good for Acela speeds. I'll see if I have spare tires for the Rio Grande 4-6-2 and try chopping one off. 

Unfortunately I can't seem to be able to take more than one video that is below the maximum size allowed by the forum! Here is one, shows current conditions on one loop. I will try to do it again and repost a few more. That was me that slowed it down enough but a little too far to stall FYI. Unfortunately, high speeds don't show the improvement much. 

A couple more...FYI I tried to run as slowly as possible. If the train stalled in a curve, I gave it some gas. Overall, Some forward and back. Hopefully you can hear the chuff speed up/slow down on the MTH Yellowbelly. It was running with cruise turned OFF. The PRR 4-4-2 and Rio Grande are both conventional engines. 

Please, forget the train. You have an urgent issue to take care of, you have VVS. Don't worry, it can be cured. 

Well, I'll admit, I don't take enough video to remember which way is the better way!

Just havin' some fun. Since someone posted that, I wait for the opportunity. My daughter has a bad case of VVS with videos of the grand kids.

 I wondered why they looked like 70 footers

What's there is much easier to see now, though the perspective still makes judging how much mechanical trouble is being seen by the engine. 

  Reversing which direction the locomotive faces is what I meant earlier. But as I've also noted recently elsewhere.., my writing isn't always so great. It doesn't matter really, I see what I wanted to on the lower level, thanks.

 Being level, or at least knowing where it isn't level, you should now be able to guestimate where, and how much that effects things as you troubleshoot.

I think even more, that you should add a drop, or two to even out the power distribution.

 If you watch the steamer video, it builds speed after the rollers are across the lock-on, and to the left of it. This is normal, and the visible reason more drops are a good thing. 

Placement is a variable for each layout & engine combo, and it can change slightly with change in loco, lighted cars etc.,

  But right in a curve is my preference for drops now.

 Start with lengths all the way to the transformer, test. Then, using shorter wire, test again with the new leads daisy chained with the nearest lockout instead. Go with what works best of course.

 Mistakes I've made- When assembling your upper level don't let track droop between pieces. Always have the support there, & ready. Moving multi-piece sections? Same deal. You have to keep a good plane. Its easy to knock it out of gauge, or raise/lower a rail by bending rail, or ties, while moving large sections of track.

 Your support methods look fine. I shimmed mine level with small Masonite sheets. For fine adjustment, I split the thickness along the "paper" layers, with a thin butcher knife. Only cutting to start it, then tearing it apart, and prying up as I go, giving me two thinner pieces. Rough surface, but effective, and out of sight.   

Thanks. 

Both table top loops actually have two drops per loop. I had 4 on them but didn't really see an improvement with them or problems without them and I think I needed the wire/lockons for something else so they came off. Perhaps I should put them back on. 

I've got the table top loops about as good as they will get. Not perfect but I just don't think I can do much more and see any/much improvement. Like I said, I'm just going to try to work with what I've got for the next 2 years and then whatever happens, happens! 

I did take a loop at the elevated loop. The trackbed is not warped. I took all of the "legs" off, including the bridge and set it down on the carpet to have a flat, reasonably level testbed. As seen in the first video, the engine STILL nearly came to a grinding halt on that one curve. I'll swap the track out but since I've done that multiple times before, I don't think it would change much this time. 

Thanks all for the help...I'm kind of a PITA when it comes to little things. Some things that will drive everyone else nuts don't bother me but itsy-bitsy speed differences in one curve vs another will drive me up a wall! 

The most likely problem is that you have some oil on some of the track and no oil where the train slows down.  As has been discussed, your locos have traction tires on both sides, and when the loco goes around a curve, the wheels must slip.  The new track likely does not have any oil on it, and the older track may have oil.  This will make a huge difference in the ability of the loco to go around the curves, and it doesn't take much oil.  If you take a white paper towel, you can wipe the track and see how much oil is on it.  If you put some oil on the curves that are causing trouble, you would likely find that the loco doesn't slow down as much after you apply a small amount of oil.  You are running short trains on level track, so a little oil is not going to cause the loco wheels to slip when starting the trains.  You can always clean the track after this experiment.

Interesting idea as I've never though much of lubricating the outer rail in O gauge. It was necessary when I was running the 24" gauge stuff (measured in tons!). Anyway, I spread a small amount of Labelle oil on the outer rail. Appears to have helped some but nothing substantial. 

Anyway, I got the elevated loop back up and running and that still has issues on one curve. Again, I took all of the "legs" off and ran it on the carpet, just as a flat oval and still had issues. The track is a slight, slight grade so that is understandable and it doesn't reproduce in reverse on this spot. Regardless, it just bugs me a bit and I've already accidentally launched one engine off the elevated loop so I don't want to do that again!!!

Down on the lower loop, still issues but I don't think I can do much more about it. I think two corners on the table are high and the rest a big low and has "stuck" that way over the years. Perhaps I should just stick to cruise equipped trains!

Thanks all for the help. 

I run conventional on the floor.  If the track connections are tight, I get very little speed variation.  The locos slow down in the curves for reasons we have discussed.  My 2325 pulling 22 cars and two dummy diesels shows very little speed variation on the O-72 loop I am using, but you can still see the loco slow down in the curves.  It has magnetraction, so there is some friction due to the wheel slip as it goes around the curves.  I don't have any locos with traction tires on both sides, so I can't test this condition.

Duh.....didn't check the traction tires. Will do tomorrow. Thanks again servo!

Matt, Are you coming to the NCT club meeting next Thursday night April 16th?

momentum, puting all the weight of the engine to the outside rail and flanges which will slow the engine because of the friction being created. what happens when you slow the engine down?….

Carl ,

I'll try depending on the schedule at "the office". Would certainly like to! Good to see you posting on the forum. 

Thought I'd update this post. This past weekend, I tore down the old table. It was horribly unlevel. All new table. Brand new lumber, tabletop, etc. 100% square, painted, sealed, etc. As we were putting it together lined up with the window sill, I came walking down the hall looking at the table head on and noticed - the right side of the brand new table is about and inch or inch and a half lower than the window, JUST like the old one. OK so now we know the floor isn't level. 

Anyway, the new table has eye-hook levelers on the legs. Actually on the low side, I put a 2x4 scrap under each one to level it off. All of the other legs at the other side are 1 inch off the floor. 

Another thing - even with the table perfectly level now thanks to the eye hooks, trains still appear to run just like the old layout. I haven't gotten the elevated loop running again yet and just have the inner and outer loops "half-@$$ed" wired so not permanent but enough for a test run.  Inner loop - running counter clockwise with the Lionel 4-4-2, still low on the lower left corner (when looking at front of table). In reverse, slow on the lower right corner and normal on opposite. Outer loop, running clockwise, slow on lower right and fast on the left. Bizarre. 

I no longer have the Rio Grande 4-6-2 conventional engine, sold it as it didn't quite fit in. I just have the 4-4-2, granted not the best for testing but it is all I have except PS2/3 locos with cruise turned off. Guess it is mostly flange bind and "the way it is". 

The 4-4-2 should have zero problems with flange bind. Work on getting things "water level" then play with your feeds. The locos will always slow a little in curves without cruise or similar speed control, but yours did seem excessive when watched.

 If it makes you feel better, despite all my efforts and building experiences, I must have took a measurement on a build line for a ceiling shelf layout, from the ceiling or crown molding in one spot while in a hurry. the result was a steeper grade on one side of the room, and a lesser grade on the other, limiting some trains to looping one direction only on the graded line. You cant see it because it follows the ceiling so well. But I know

I disagree on the flange bind on the 4-4-2 based on many years of owning this particular engine and a few others. Granted it is worse on larger locos but then again, this one does have flange bind issues. 

The table is  level per my bubble level yet comparing to the window behind, is not level. The basement floor is not level also. 

I can't seem to remember my old layout in the same spot and how it responded and ran. Wish I had an old video...that was a good 8 years ago! 

BTW, before I pulled the old table down, I put the track on the carpet and it still responded the same as the table. I'll probably add a few more power feeds "just because" but I don't think that would fix much, if any, of the problems. I did just run on the upper loop and it seems better but still slowing down. Actually, when looking head-on at the table, the left side is the "slow side" and the right side is the "fast side". I know level isn't much, if any, of an issue now. I wouldn't worry much about it if the slow down was even more or less on both sides. This just doesn't seem right but I've pretty much tried every option. 

Go by the bubble, and check the track itself too. My table was square and level at first. Two months later, I was re-leveling my El. The plywood under foam got wavy. The lower level didn't bug me bad as the track lengths traversed the apexes of many waves. The supports on some the El however sat on portions that both rose or fell, creating havoc for ride ups, and car derailing. 

Its your engine, you know better than I do on it, I guess. I just haven't had an issue with any train built with only four drivers on 0-27.

Thanks Adriatic. I'll double check the level as we did adjust it a bit but not much at all. 

I've found the engine, at lower speeds, practically stop in 0-27 but not as noticeable at speed but that is often the case with any loco. 

Just strange and I'm pretty baffled that new construction didn't change anything either on the "slow left side".