So what did you think of the Nova show "Why trains crash"?

It makes me worry a little as we may be taking a trip on the CA Zephyr soon to experience the Donner Pass scenery.

Installing the PTC system seems to be a "no-brainer" and the sooner the better.

stangtrain posted:

It makes me worry a little as we may be taking a trip on the CA Zephyr soon to experience the Donner Pass scenery.

You're joking, right?   The odds of you getting killed/injured in your automobile are FAR GREATER than an accident on the Amtrak CZ.

Installing the PTC system seems to be a "no-brainer" and the sooner the better.

Sure it is,,,,,,,,,when they can finally get PTC to function reliably .

Darn it I missed it to watch "Alaskan Bush People".

Rick

RICKC posted:

Darn it I missed it to watch "Alaskan Bush People".

Rick

GOOD GRIEF!!!!!!

Moved to the correct category....

Personally I was quite impressed that they REALLY got their facts correct when they discussed the various SERIOUS crashes in the U.S., had how human failure was essentially the direct cause. That aside, I was NOT real pleased with the constant "PTC WILL CURE EVERYTHING" theme throughout most of the program. Plus a little too much "people will surely die, if the don't get PTC installed", never mind whether it works or not.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKfEqGY6W3g

NOVA: Why Trains Crash PREVIEW   •   Published on Feb 16, 2017  /  20 seconds

Follow investigators as they probe the wreckage of infamous train accidents and watch safety experts test the latest crash prevention designs.

I watched the program and felt that this documentary was well done and it covered trains world wide.

Gary: Rail-fan

The NTSB has boilerplate in all their train accident reports that state that PTC would've prevented the accident.  NTSB rail

Brendan

Brendan posted:

The NTSB has boilerplate in all their train accident reports that state that PTC would've prevented the accident.  NTSB rail

Brendan

Obviously the easy way out! One example that they are wrong about; the Hoboken Terminal crash. It has already been established that PTC does not, nor will not work in terminal when the restricted operating speed is 10 MPH anyway.

RICKC posted:

Darn it I missed it to watch "Alaskan Bush People".

Rick

You can still watch the episode online at PBS NOVA - Why Trains Crash

RICKC posted:

Darn it I missed it to watch "Alaskan Bush People".

Rick

You and my wife.  So far, NOBODY has been able to explain why I should give a rat's rear end about those idiots that make living life ten times harder than it already is.  With any luck, the whole family will get eaten by bears.  They're the only people I know that have sunk more boats than the Japanese Navy!

Nova quality type show, similar to most of their shows, provides good facts, appears to be balanced, yet pushes a message.  If compared to Why Planes crash, disappointing.  If they had gone deeper into each subject, they could have easily made a good mini series.  A good watch for most but it's probably not going to appeal most hard core train enthusiast or real railroad worker.

I learned that the Japanese high-speed Shinkansen or "bullet trains" have a 100% safety record for over fifty years. This feat is achieved by VERY intense and comprehensive track and train maintenance programs. The large numbers of riders provide the financial support of the dedicated maintenance logistics. The "Yellow Doctor" diagnostic train set checks both the overhead catenary and the rails. Their progress in Maglev technology is also impressive. While the USA excels in freight logistics, we are essentially in the dark ages in terms of modern high speed passenger rail service.

Aside from glossing over the PTC systems compatibility issues, I thought they did a pretty good job until they got into the weeds with Japanese bullet trains.  They never explained how/why they got such modern infrastructure... namely we blew up the old.

Jon  

KOOLjock1 posted:

Aside from glossing over the PTC systems compatibility issues, I thought they did a pretty good job until they got into the weeds with Japanese bullet trains.  They never explained how/why they got such modern infrastructure... namely we blew up the old.

Jon  

The Japanese were considering high speed rail (relative to the contemporary speeds at the time) in the 1930's...

Rusty

Watched it and found out the opening was filmed at Walkersville. The relic of the past was our EMC/EMD model 40. The last one running in normal service.

Jamie

I enjoyed it, but it certainly brought back sad memories of the Lac Megantic disaster, amongst all the others. The Shinkansen and maglev segments were fascinating. The clip of the young woman running across the tracks in front of the METRA train is amazing for the fact that that she wasn't hit. It was filmed with a zoom lens, so I can't tell the distance of the margin.

Criticism of PTC seems ill-conceived if its based on a "doesn't always work" or "wouldn't have prevented this particular crash" basis. After years of delay, we are to expect more years of delay?

Seems the real problem with PTC is lack of political will. And yes, it is hardly an exaggeration, or rhetoric, to say that, without PTC, more people will die.

Dieselbob posted:

You and my wife.  So far, NOBODY has been able to explain why I should give a rat's rear end about those idiots that make living life ten times harder than it already is.  With any luck, the whole family will get eaten by bears.  They're the only people I know that have sunk more boats than the Japanese Navy!

The children of the Brown family starring in the reality TV series "Alaskan Bush People" are earning at around $40,000 to $60,000, while their father, Billy, has a salary of around $500,000,

For the 2017 season the family will earn $870,000.

Source: Blasting News & Channel Guide Magazine.

Diesel Bob, at $870.000, "they are not idiots, as you called them and making life ten times harder". They are doing just fine, making money.

Gary: Rail-fan

Terry:

The delays in implementing PTC can be traced to technology, capital and government agencies (such as the FCC) that interfered in the process.

And insofar as capital; the Federal government has never appropriated a single cent of the billions already spent (or that will still be spent) by the railroads to create and install PTC.  This was a wholly unfunded mandate shoved down the railroads throats.

Curt

trainroomgary posted:

Dieselbob posted:

You and my wife.  So far, NOBODY has been able to explain why I should give a rat's rear end about those idiots that make living life ten times harder than it already is.  With any luck, the whole family will get eaten by bears.  They're the only people I know that have sunk more boats than the Japanese Navy!

The children of the Brown family starring in the reality TV series "Alaskan Bush People" are earning at around $40,000 to $60,000, while their father, Billy, has a salary of around $500,000,

For the 2017 season the family will earn $870,000.

Source: Blasting News & Channel Guide Magazine.

Diesel Bob, at $870.000, "they are not idiots, as you called them and making life ten times harder". They are doing just fine, making money.

Gary: Rail-fan

Well, they may be getting well paid, for being on the show, but their ACTIONS, sure make them look like IDIOTS. And the part that really turned ME off, in addition to the way they acted was how Billy the Father said several times before I quit watching, how they don't need ANYTHING from the outside world, while shooting game with a rifle, scope and ammunition that I am SURE he produced himself from items found in the wild, using fuel and tools among many other things that came from the Outside, obviously paid for with money made from the show. Yep, LOTS of Credibility there.

 If you like that type of "Reality" show, Alaska the Last Frontier, is a much better choice, the Kilchers, even act like Civilized people, don't make claims to not needing anything from the outside world, and still is an interesting show. I haven't watched either in some time, but just seeing the commercials, they both seem to be about the same as when I did last watch them.

Doug

Enjoyed the show, very informative in it's usually biased manner (as all programs are to some extent) and, for me, proves one thing:  the most common cause is human error.  And, fully automated systems are never fail proof, all are prone to outside influence.  Perhaps, if a rail system with the intense involvement of all parties, such as the Japanese Shinkansen, were erected in the United States, it may work on a safe level of incidents.  In a perfect world.  Another consideration to interject is the length and climate of the Japanese line, in comparison of same factors for a system in the United States.  No doubt it would be longer, more interaction with other lines and transportation modes, and a lot more regulation.  Not to mention geographic and weather related influence.  A whole lot more changes and differences any system would have to deal with and properly react with on a daily basis, 365 days a year.  As for safety of transport of any petro carbons, the best solution is, always has been, will be, is a modern pipeline.  The standards in materials and construction/maintenance are far ahead of most pipelines already in existence.  And, they are in use every day throughout our country.  The billions of gallons of all products transport via pipeline is beyond most comprehension, and any new ones are all superior to what we have in place.  rail is great for transporting most of what it does, but some do have better, safer, alternatives..... and without impact to environment or people lives.

Jesse    TCA   

Tinplate Art posted:

I learned that the Japanese high-speed Shinkansen or "bullet trains" have a 100% safety record for over fifty years. This feat is achieved by VERY intense and comprehensive track and train maintenance programs. The large numbers of riders provide the financial support of the dedicated maintenance logistics. The "Yellow Doctor" diagnostic train set checks both the overhead catenary and the rails. Their progress in Maglev technology is also impressive. While the USA excels in freight logistics, we are essentially in the dark ages in terms of modern high speed passenger rail service.

I too found the segment on Japan to be most interesting. Very impressive safety record. The rest of the show was somewhat less so, as most of those accidents have been well discussed here on the forum. The show was only recently produced and very up to date, as there was footage of the FedEx truck in Utah getting hit, and if memory serves, that only happened a few months ago.

As for if the US will ever have a high speed rail network, it is highly unlikely. The distances are too great and the population density is too low. This leaves the huge infrastructure expense untenable. The northeast corridor is the one exception. No matter how you slice it, air travel in this country faster and cheaper. Until that changes, high speed rail doesn't stand a real chance.

Thought is was a good documentary.  Not overly dramatic.  Didn't detect the "PTC will fix everything" mentality some others heard.  Sounded more like "a Culture of Safety will fix everything" to me. 

I knew we were well "behind the curve" in North America in regards to transporting passengers via rail compared to much of the rest of the developed world. But I did not know China and South Korea had operational maglevs! I read on Wikipedia that the China line at least is an economic failure albeit an apparent  technological triumph. Not sure about the others but all are very short in distance covered.

No doubt the state of passenger rail in the US and Canada has been discussed ad nauseum in forums such as this. There seem a million excuses why "it can't happen here."

Fifty-five years ago, I bought my first camera . . . Japanese of course. The manual pictured a Japanese bullet train with Mt. Fuji in the background. We still don't have a train to equal even that? I find it inescapable not to draw conclusions from this, as well as many other other things involving technology and infrastructure. It would be politically inprudent and incendiary to specifically mention them in a forum such as this though. What is the last advanced passenger train we've seen in Canada? The Rapido (1965)? The ill-fated CN turbo (1968)?

Are our fossil fuel powered behemoths to roll on for another half century without significant change?

Terry Danks posted:

I knew we were well "behind the curve" in North America in regards to transporting passengers via rail compared to much of the rest of the developed world. But I did not know China and South Korea had operational maglevs! I read on Wikipedia that the China line at least is an economic failure albeit an apparent  technological triumph. Not sure about the others but all are very short in distance covered.

No doubt the state of passenger rail in the US and Canada has been discussed ad nauseum in forums such as this. There seem a million excuses why "it can't happen here."

It is not that it "can't happen here", it is more about the use of tax dollars spent for public transportation, that the American public really doesn't want. Remember that all those passenger trains, all over the rest of the world, are ALL government owned operations! Not to mention the fact that the United States is SOOOOOOOO much larger that most all of those other countries (look at a map of the European Countries along, and you could fit most of them inside Texas). Lastly, the U.S. is pretty much an economy based around the automobile, and the vast majority of the American Public like to drive their cars.