TCA Sets Minimum Age Requirement

I would bet a dollar to doughnut that the 'root' cause can be tracked back to money - somehow, someway. Legally, it sounds like they have 'had' to go this route- it's either protection or prevention.

Still, lemons can be lemonade. Why not create a secondary sub-club for junior members - with their own board, committees, etc? Heck - maybe they could even have their own "York" where the emphasis is not about buying / selling but about building and operating.  Seems this would promote better participation for the future leadership of TCA. They need to figure out how to accommodate rather than shut them out.

I wonder how many teenagers are likely to want to belong to the TCA.

Like it or not, "O" gauge trains are expensive, and consume a great deal of space.

Just a guess, but I expect that most interested teenagers have a close relative that is also involved in the hobby.

Setting up and overseeing a sub-organization for teens would be a significant body of work that probably would be of small benefit.

Who would do the work?

If the teens run their organization, then they need to understand that part of that is also doing the work.  Sure, adults need to be involved to give guidance as to the things that need to be done to accomplish their goals but the teens are capable of doing the work themselves.  What a great lesson!  If they do the work, they reap the rewards, including the sense of accomplishment.  If they don't, they reap the consequences of an organization that doesn't do anything and falls apart.

I've had the opportunity to see scout troops where the adults did everything and ones where they taught the boys how to do things and then stepped back and let them do it.  Both troops had successful programs but the ones where the boys had the adults that were less "hands on" really developed a lot more self-confidence and self-sufficiency.

I see no reason why a "Youth TCA" couldn't be just as successful.

quote:

I see no reason why a "Youth TCA" couldn't be just as successful.

I can think of a couple

The Boy Scouts is a youth centric organization with deep resources focused on supporting youth activities. The TCA does not have the experience or resources.

Regardless of the level of participation by the teens, adult oversight is required, which goes back to the question: "Who is going to do the work?"

My guess is there are not nearly enough of them out there to get such an effort off the ground, with the number likely to decrease further now that relevant teens have been assigned to a "kids" category.  When I reached my teen years, I no longer wanted to be considered a "kid."  Didn't want to again achieve that distinction until I turned 60.

#1 Yes, the BSA has deep resources today but what they teach about leadership can be applied in any youth group situation.  They have the belief that once you teach a person how and then let them do it (succeed or fail) that they learn valuable lessons about life.  You don't need deep pockets to teach young people these principles.

#2 Oversight is one thing, doing all the work is another.  I'm not saying oversight isn't work, but there is no reason young people can't organize an event or activity and do the necessary work to pull it off.  They do it all the time.

I think that a teenager (especially an older one) is going to respond better to being given increasing levels of responsibility as they demonstrate the ability to handle it.

I'm with Allan.  No teen wants to be thought of as a "kid".

I'm not sure that 12 teenagers in the TCA out there probably care about any of this.

Back when member table space was at a premium, the primary reason for enrolling wife and kids as TCA members was that each was then eligible to rent a table for Dad to hawk his wares. In fact, a few bad apples were known to "invent" a few offspring to get more table space.

As has been said, it's rare that a teen is able to maintain his or her interest in trains through the years of high school, college, first love, last love, and first auto.

TCA efforts and resources might better be spent on attracting the 20 - 40 year olds once families are established and things "settle down" a little (if they ever do!).

Jim

quote:

"#1 Yes, the BSA has deep resources today but what they teach about leadership can be applied in any youth group situation.  They have the belief that once you teach a person how and then let them do it (succeed or fail) that they learn valuable lessons about life.  You don't need deep pockets to teach young people these principles"

I wasn't refering to money.

You don't have to refer to money. You can go to any town and find a Boy Scout troop.
I'm a TCA member and the closest clubs or events are over 150 miles away. Kids need involvement to hold their interest and who's going to do that? If the kid isn't 16 yet he's not going to be able to drive and who's going to do that?
All this and coordinating the events takes money and time.
It will undoubtedly involve a parent that's already into trains and is already a TCA member . The kid isn't going to get any of the parents benefits in his own membership so why bother?
The average age of O scale railroaders is 50 years old and now your going to make an attempt to attract the far left of that spectrum?
I think your much better off at least using your ever declining and valuable resources
to try to attract the 30 to 50 year olds who maybe had a train set when they were kids.
My kids were always around the trains and 4 out of 4 don't care to be in the hobby.
Kids like Max and Jake(Santa Fe 158) aren't a rarity these days because they're into O scale trains, They're a rarity because they're into trains at all.

David

 

Many kids even in the pre-teen years don't like being called "kids."  The TCA could resolve that issue by re-designating the TCA Kids Club into something a little more appealing to teenagers, like TCA Youth, TCA Youth Axillary, Junior TCA, etc.  to make it sound more "official."

Andy

This is an excellent point.  I've heard kids under 10 insist that they are no longer a "kid".

@David & C. W.

Yes, you need adults for certain tasks.  In some cases, in order to drive scouts on an "official" function, you need to be at least 25.  This is for liability reasons.  But I've seen the kids: plan where they were going, plan the menus, buy the food, collect and manage the money, cook the food, clean up, arrange transportation, plan and run the activities, etc.  You may need someone old enough to drive to the store but even the younger boys learn about what to buy because the older boys tell them.  Mistakes made were not often repeated either.

I have been taking notes on the discussion and plan to take my suggestion and your comments to my Division President to bring up at the National Convention. To those of you with children enrolled in Kids Club, hooray for you! When they turn 18 they can become members of TCA WITHOUT and application fee and pay 1/2 of normal dues until they turn 24! (TCA Rules and Regs Page 13)

But the original question is, should there be an age restriction to membership? LCCA doesn't have it, nor do any of the non-profit museums in and around the TCA Headquarters. In fact the Pennsylvania Railroad Museum just a 1/2 mile away has 2 Junior membership levels available to folks under the age of 18.

I hate unnecessary rules and laws and this is one of them! Like so many of you have said, this isn't the age group to focus on, it is the 30 something's. I help to keep the spark alive in my family  by using gift subscriptions to my favorite train publications along with Christmas and Birthday gifts to the kids to add to their pike. Sure it is just some fast track laid on the floor and a accessory or two, but it is a start. But after all, it's all that I started out with....

Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if the average age of the O scale community is even older than 50 nowadays.

And even though I think it's great to try to get kids involved in the hobby, there's no doubt that times are not even close to being what they once were (in regard to toy trains and the hobby as a whole).  The real effort should be, as you suggest, in attracting somewhat older and more settled participants by showing, whenever, wherever, and however possible, the creative aspects of this great and diverse hobby.  Both the hobby organizations and the manufacturers really need to do much more in that regard.

One example:  During a visit to forum member Dave Minarik's Mercer Junction train shop yesterday, I met a 40s-something fellow who is a devoted and longtime HO modeler.  Having been exposed to modern O gauge via the layout in Dave's store, he's now considering getting his feet wet in O gauge, even though he has a roster of more than 100 HO locomotives.  He has also started reading O Gauge Railroading magazine.  When I asked him what attracted him to the magazine, he replied that there's always something to learn in every publication devoted to our hobby, regardless of scale or gauge.  Will he turn into a future participant in O?  Appears to be a definite possibility.

Like I said The "youth" TCA should be trying to attract is the 30 to 50 crowd. These are people with an income level high enough to sustain themselves in the hobby.
A kid can get very discouraged if they can't have the vision line loco's why? because they just don't have that kind of money.They'll easily gravitate to something less expensive but just as satisfying

There's no where near the disposable income there used to be. Is there anything in the Lionel or MTH line that you could have afforded when you were a Kid?????
For most  that answer would be no and for most kids today that answer would also be no.

Your much better off doing away with the sign up fee that expires in June altogether.
and involving your divisions in your financial bottom line. When you sequester the public from the only venue that they would have contact with your organization who are you hurting? By waiving the 2 signature rule you admit that the once selectivity that was part of TCA is no longer considered an issue.

So why not one day open to the public at large events? Why is that such a milestone hurdle????? How much do divisions contribute to the national organization????
Since the Eastern division obviously takes in the most money does it contribute accordingly???

So why not last day open to the public with proceeds going to national and an aggressive membership drive on that day???Then you go to Lionel and MTH and say were aggressively trying to increase our membership and we want a significant discount for our young members(Under 18)
MTH's See it,Feel it, Run it isn't worth a dam if you can't afford it.
That's when you'll get kids in your organization and not until. It'll just be an old farts club like it is now.

David 

quote:

A kid can get very discouraged if they can't have the vision line loco's why? because they just don't have that kind of money.They'll easily gravitate to something less expensive but just as satisfying

Adults too.

And I think the best way to do it is in Oct. with advertising showing the joys of a train running under the Christmas tree. I had a Christmas layout for 19 years before I built a year-'round one. However, I think Lionel and MTH should be doing this, not TCA.

Since the 2-signature rule is dead, Lionel and MTH could put a TCA application in train boxes.

Joe putting the member application in trains sets would be good but I think the spring meet would be better for the one day open to the public member drive.
We all know the nostalgia of toy trains and Christmas . Young adults and young parents are usually on a Christmas budget . The spring meet would be more attractive because by that time they usually have their tax return money and have a little disposable cash to burn but either way spring or fall will be a lot better than doing nothing.

David

I hate to think of folks getting sizable tax refunds--especially younger adults--because they are just giving Uncle Sam an interest-free loan for the year.  FAR better to have placed that money into some kind of interest-bearing account throughout the year and beyond, even if the interest rate is meager.

I trust that those in the 25-60 age group realize that they need to be putting aside every penny they possibly can.  The "live for today" deal might work okay for us oldsters who aren't going to be around for another 30 years or so, but you somewhat younger folks really need to wake up and smell the roses!  And if you have kids, you better be planting a VERY LARGE rose garden!

I agree Allan,
But your parents probably told you the same thing . I know mine did. I don't think it really hits home till we're 30 and realize we're not going to live forever and we don't want to have a job in our retirement.
My daughter is 21 she has a sizable trust from her grand father. She's used some of it for college tuition and will be using some of it for her move for her first away from home job.
I've talked to her about and IRA for the other major portion and did so till I was pretty much blue but I wanted it to be her decision. I finally got her to contact my financial adviser and let him show her the numbers and the huge advantages of doing this now. She should be very well off by the time she's 60

But you have to realize Morgan is a rarity these days. Very few 21 year olds have this opportunity. Most especially those on their own live paycheck to paycheck this goes double for young couples with children. Their 401K is there only salvation that they'll have any retirement savings at all. They don't know that with just an outlay of 2500 dollars now before they're 25 and with an aggressively managed plan, they could be sitting pretty good in their retirement years because there's no one to tell them this.

So they contribute to their stagnate miss managed 401K if they're lucky enough to have one and figure that's as good as it get's.
Wake up and smell the roses? Well they're being fertilized these days with manure.

Kinda like saying "Okay we're making it a law. Everyone has to have health care now"
Well that really solved something didn't it?
This isn't a rant towards you Allan but young folks are up against it these days and no ones telling them what they need to know because everyone wants their money.
That why I said TCA really shouldn't expect much from those in that age bracket.
They just don't have the cash to be in O scale.

David

The point is, it's important to start somewhere while you're younger, even if it yields a modest return on investment.  The problem with so many in our society these days is that so much attention is placed on the material things of life.  It has been that way for a long time, with the sole exception perhaps being those who lived through the Great Depression (and with very few of those folks still with us today).

People need to assume more individual responsibility for their own well being.  It's a tragic mistake to believe that government will be the be-all and end-all in that regard.  I don't think anyone here needs a lesson in why that most definitely is not and will not be the case.

Yes, your daughter is the very rare exception among young people today.  As a former university faculty and staff member, and having been acquainted with many hundreds of young people during those years, I can only tell you that I harbor a significant concern for the future of these young folks unless there is some change of direction--soon--in our national thinking and priorities. 

Allan I couldn't agree more with everything you've said. Morgans older sister has a masters and 6 years of student loan debt . She received an equal share of money from her grand father and decided to pay down the student loans from earnings from her job.All $70,000 of it. The majority of her trust is in retirement funds. I think it's like financial experts used to say "You'll always have a car and a house payment"
And now they'll have to add student loan payment to that.

I think you'll see a significant lowering in our standard of living in the next 20 years if things don't change.
Sorry to get off topic. TCA is notorious for foot dragging . But sooner or later their going to have to make a change to try to attract more folks to the hobby.

David

Yes, we did stray a bit, but I suppose the point of this is that the TCA probably needs to take a 21st Century look at things and recognize that this is not the 70s and 80s anymore.  Attracting new people to the hobby, or even exposing more people to it, is going to involve some forward-looking initiatives that meet the challenges of a changed time in a changed society.

quote:

Attracting new people to the hobby, or even exposing more people to it, is going to involve some forward-looking initiatives that meet the challenges of a changed time in a changed society.

 

Uhh...you're coming through a bit garbled, C.W.  I have no idea how that happened.

The auto-advance on his typewriter is not working

Okay C.W. hit the side of that casio your using and get back on track .

I stood back and gave this some thought. Looking at it from another perspective .
The officers of TCA are charged with making rules that will continue to benefit the TCA
Some of the radical changes I've come up with here I think would strengthen their financial bottom line as well as bring in new members but like any untried system it could backfire. As a TCA officer would I want to be the one that killed the organization? NO so you always vote on the side of caution.
We're calling it getting into the 21st century but right now at this time the things they're doing are keeping them a float- just barley but they are keeping them a float.

David

Allan and David,

 While I am new to the TCA and 'The Forum', I am learning a lot quickly. There are many ideas here and in the other 'threads' regarding things to improve the TCA and the hobby. Is it difficult to get the TCA to 'pole' it's members about these ideas then make the 'logical' fix? This isn't to say they do not make good decisions, but knowing what the members think and how it will effect them, might just make that process a little easier for them. Or, am I out in left field at the warning track? 

 Moving ahead will always have bumps in the road. But, part of what we do should smooth the bumps out for those who follow us.

Henry J

Is it difficult to get the TCA to 'pole' it's members about these ideas then make the 'logical' fix? This isn't to say they do not make good decisions, but knowing what the members think and how it will effect them, might just make that process a little easier for them. Or, am I out in left field at the warning track?

A better idea is for those members that feel strongly about this or any action that TCA leadership does is to contact your Division President and send a note via email to the National President, and President-elect. These are the individuals who need to know your feeling on a subject such as this. Some TCA leaders do read this forum, but your message might be only reaching a few of them. Since you pay your dues and vote, let your voices be heard. As we all know most action in this world is reaction. In an Association that looks backwards at preserving history, forward thinking is a rare commodity.

The TCA is registered as a PA non-profit and has to abide by PA rules. Divisions are part of that PA non-profit corporation.  A child under 18 in PA can't enter into a contract. Now if a TCA member sells his mint 765 to a child TCA member and then the child decides that the 765 isn't what he wanted his parents can take you to court to undo the deal. If he is over 18 he could try to file a complaint with the TCA but you could too. Kids club members are sponsored by a TCA member who agrees to supervise them and be responsible for their actions.

It appears that some folks posting here don't like the power exercised by the executive committee. The executive committee are the following elected officials:

TCA President, TCA President-Elect, TCA Treasurer, Immediate Past TCA President. The national TCA secretary is a non voting member of the executive committee.

These are all TCA members elected by a majority of all TCA members voting in a national TCA election. They have been elected to govern by a majority of members nationally. Seems pretty democratic to me.

Also on the Executive Committee are 3 Division presidents. The 3 are elected to the Executive Committee by a majority of the TCA Board of Directors. The TCA BOD are the elected TCA officials above plus the Division presidents. This seems pretty fair to me too.

Now it would seem to me that as elected officials given a mandate to govern by a majority of all TCA members the Executive Committee is a pretty good place to make decisions governing the national TCA. If you don't like it then you can either get elected to national TCA office or become an elected President of your division, work hard and then get elected to the Executive committee then convince the TCA BOD that your way is more democratic.

Seems pretty simple to me.

From the initial TCA correspondence (with my highlighting added):

"Please note that all Kids Club members need a TCA member in good standing as a sponsor and Kids Club members are not members of TCA and therefore do not have the benefits of regular TCA membership."    

If I was 12-years-old or older, still under 18 and really interested in toy trains, I would simply say "up yours" and move on to something else, such as the LCCA, LOTS, or one of the others.  At least there I would feel like I was a real part of the group and not just a little kid.

I'm not arguing with the BOD decision..they are duly elected and are doing what they feel is right.  I'm just saying that this kind of thing--a sign of our unfortunate times, I suppose--most definitely will not be of any great help to the TCA when the TCA could use all the help it can get.

Allen, I didn't know you were so bitter about the TCA. As an editor of a train magazine, I don't think you should say things like that.

I guess Allan is entitled to his opinion the same as anyone else.  I think his comments are right on personally.  The last thing you want to do is discourage new members, whatever their age.

As far as sales, you could put a restriction on those if age is a legal factor.

Allan,

I applaud your willingness to speak your mind; I have no dog in the fight---but I like folks who are willing to take a position on an issue.

I'm not bitter about the TCA, Eddie.  I have enjoyed being a TCA member for some 20 years now.  But I am not happy with policies that discourage young people--the future of this hobby--from feeling that they are less important to the organization than the so-called adults.  That probably doesn't matter to the very young, but those in their teen years are aware enough to be cognizant of the discrimination and not likely to be very encouraged by their second-rate status.

And what better way to express my views on such matters than as editor of one of the hobby's major publications?  I would be terribly remiss if I did not speak out on matters that I feel may impact--for better or for worse--the future of a hobby I have been involved with and devoted to for many years.

I don't see this as a TCA problem, per se, rather a sign of our times.  Do we want members to risk being sued by children and yet they have no legal recourse.  So they declare kids cannot be full members.  Sad?  Yes. 

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It appears that some folks posting here don't like the power exercised by the executive committee. The executive committee are the following elected officials:

TCA President, TCA President-Elect, TCA Treasurer, Immediate Past TCA President. The national TCA secretary is a non voting member of the executive committee.

These are all TCA members elected by a majority of all TCA members voting in a national TCA election. They have been elected to govern by a majority of members nationally. Seems pretty democratic to me.

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Kent, in a matter this important the Executive Committee over-stepped their authority.  This matter should have been delayed  - two months - so that the decision and alternate membership options could have been discussed by the entire National Board of Directors. Sadly, the Executive Committee is NOT elected by a majority of all TCA members and they along with all TCA members need to be reminded of this. Do you really know who the President, President-elect, or any National Officer is after reading a few lines in the ballot information TCA provides? In the last election, barely 20% of all TCA members voted and that was after TCA gave them a stamp to do so. Yes, elected by a majority of those who voted, but hardly a majority of members nationally.

Local Division elections have a far better turnout than those held nationally. As a dues paying TCA member, your only real representation is when the full Board of Directors meets either by teleconference or at the National Convention and as such you should be concerned by one simple fact. When the full Board of Directors meets the 20 Divisions outweigh the National Officers 20 to 6. (the second and third Past Presidents do not have a vote) When the Executive Committee meets the National Officers outweigh the Divisions 4 to 3. Those four officers, elected by 20%, make decisions that affect all of us.