The dreaded GROUND PLANE issue - new (interim) findings

Where is the command base power supply plugged in?  An AC strip or directly to a properly grounded outlet?  

MartyE posted:

Where is the command base power supply plugged in?  An AC strip or directly to a properly grounded outlet?  

Thanks - I've tried plugging it directly into the wall outlet, which I believe must be properly grounded; same problem in terms of lack of response from the Legacy equipped cars/engine. But in the past I have used this same power source with no issue. 

Is the crane car the only thing having the issue?  Could it be the crane car?

Hancock52 posted:

 Also a Legacy engine I put on the track shows a tell-tale flickering headlight every 3-4 feet along the track unless I put my hand over it. We haven't changed anything in our electrical system but this is a condo and there has been structural work on either side of us recently.

Marty, see above, more than just the crane.

Ok missed that even though I re-read it. Must be getting old. I'd at least check the outlets for proper grounding just on a whim. 

Thanks to you both for looking at this. In case it matters, I should mention that the CAB2 and base have only just been upgraded to v. 1.60 from 1.40. Not sure how that could relate to signal problems though.

I've had no issues after upgrading to 1.6 on a number of Legacy systems, and I can't imagine why there would be.  I agree with Marty, start with the basics.

One thing you might consider is to float the ground pin from the Legacy power brick deliberately and connect a wire from pin 5 of the serial port connector.  Run that insulated wire around by the tracks, but not connected to ANYTHING but pin 5 of the serial connector.  That should tell you if it's some sort of house wiring issue or even a possibly bad power brick.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

One thing you might consider is to float the ground pin from the Legacy power brick deliberately and connect a wire from pin 5 of the serial port connector.  Run that insulated wire around by the tracks, but not connected to ANYTHING but pin 5 of the serial connector.  That should tell you if it's some sort of house wiring issue or even a possibly bad power brick.

OK, I'll check the wall outlets I've been using and try this too. I did wonder about the Legacy base power brick as it's fairly old now. Thanks again.

Hancock52 posted:

MartyE posted:

Where is the command base power supply plugged in?  An AC strip or directly to a properly grounded outlet?  

Thanks - I've tried plugging it directly into the wall outlet, which I believe must be properly grounded; same problem in terms of lack of response from the Legacy equipped cars/engine. But in the past I have used this same power source with no issue. 

A 3-wire receptacle tester at Home Depot is around$6.00. Plug it in and you know if the receptacle is properly wired/grounded. if you don't have this, you could be chasing your tail. it's good to have one around the house anyway.

Are you using a 3-wire terminal strip for the bricks? test that with the receptacle tester also.

Are you connecting the Legacy base wire to the A channel  - U terminal on the ZW-C ?

Moonman posted:

A 3-wire receptacle tester at Home Depot is around$6.00. Plug it in and you know if the receptacle is properly wired/grounded. if you don't have this, you could be chasing your tail. it's good to have one around the house anyway.

Are you using a 3-wire terminal strip for the bricks? test that with the receptacle tester also.

Are you connecting the Legacy base wire to the A channel  - U terminal on the ZW-C ?

Thanks, I think it's a good idea to get a tester. But I'll look at the outlets in question later today in case I can tell anything from that. 

Yes, I remembered to connect the Legacy base to the A channel.

Yes also that the transformer bricks are connected to a terminal strip (which I'll also test) but not the wall wart for the Legacy base, which is plugged directly into the wall. Would it make a difference that the other bricks are powered in this way? I thought it was the base connection that was meant to send the signal though the house wiring. 

Sounds good! You only need to confirm that  you have a good earth ground at the wall and on the power strip.

If you actually do need a ground plane, they are not difficult to make.  A length of wire, a 3 pronged plug that can be disassembled, and some cable ties to hold the wire in place are all you really need.  My ground plane uses white 14 gauge wire, but just about anything will do.

My ground plane is positioned above my Hidden Storage Yard and below my layout's main level.  Here's that plug (orange).  The wire is connected to the ground pin;  the other two prongs are removed.

Here's the ground plane itself.  Kinda looks like a catenary.  Control problems on lower level went away immediately.

Best of luck,

George

OK, I have something to add based on everyone's helpful suggestions.

1.  I did what GRJ suggested, that is, float the Legacy base wall wart by attaching it to the wall outlet through a two-prong adapter so that the ground prong wasn't attached. Then I ran a wire (twisted core wire was all I had on hand, not solid core copper although that may make no difference) from pin 5 on the Legacy base serial connection alongside the track. I do know not to connect earth ground to anything else. Presto, the boom car and crane respond exactly as they should.

2.  On the other hand, if I connect the base wall wart as normal direct to the wall outlet and also run the wire from pin 5 there's still something wrong with the signal. The boom car won't actually pick up the command signal on start up unless the wire is directly above the internal antenna. The crane itself only works in a jerky fashion unless the pin 5 wire is looped directly over its antenna.

3.  I guess that this means there's some anomaly in the house wiring or maybe the command base power brick. I won't have a chance to get the receptacle tester mentioned above until tomorrow. Looking behind the receptacle plate I can't tell anything about its ground wiring so a tester seems necessary.

4.  I'd also guess from the fact that the boom car won't pick up the command signal as I have described above that something is really degrading the signal when the wall wart is connected.

I thought I'd post this now in case it means more to someone else than I can figure out myself. Thanks for all your responses.

PLCProf posted:

I went through about the same thing with a small layout and it turns out the command base was bad. The bad base "sorta worked," if you coaxed and cajoled it, but after repair it is bullet proof. I can see the need to fuss and fiddle on large layouts, but I am of the impression that yours is not massive.

I find it highly unlikely that your house wiring is the issue.

Just my $.02 worth.

Thanks. I've read your other posts about electrical issues and to me your opinion's worth a lot more than 2¢!

I fear that you are right about this base or its power supply rather than the house wiring. It's the second Legacy base I got and is now some years old. Still, I'd like to understand what the issue is before I put it down to obsolescence.

More than once the power brick has been the issue.  One thing you can try now that you have gotten it working with my kludge.  Use an ohmmeter and check continuity between the wall plug round pin (earth ground) and the outside barrel of the power plug to the Legacy base.  If that is not connected, that is the likely problem.  You can also plug the Legacy base connector in and try continuity between the wall outlet round pin and pin 5 on the serial port.

I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the house wiring, it's pretty common to find issues with wiring in many houses.

Looks like you are on the right path. 

Since it worked with the ground to the serial connector, it's now a matter of isolating which part is broken.  It could be the base, the power brick, or the house power wiring. 

Well, I can't vouch for my skills with a multimeter (in this case an Extech EX330) but it shows that there is continuity between the outside of the power brick barrel plug and the ground prong and between the receptacle ground round pin and the serial port pin 5 when the power brick is plugged in.

I should say that as I cannot get the test lead to touch the ground pin on the brick when it's plugged in I have touched it to the other ground ground pin opening on the twin receptacle on the amateur basis that they must be connected.

This multimeter's instructions say that "if the resistance is less than 35 ohm an audible signal will sound," which it does whereas "if the circuit is open (bad) the display will indicate 'OL'," which it does not.

The question here is if the ground pin on that outlet is connected to the house wiring.  The two pins would be connected together, the duplex outlet has a big copper strap between them.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

The question here is if the ground pin on that outlet is connected to the house wiring.  The two pins would be connected together, the duplex outlet has a big copper strap between them.

I get it - I'll see what the tester tells me when I get one tomorrow.

I suppose there is no way of "broadcasting" the signal from the pin 5 output? I have not yet tried seeing if the wire connection actually cures signal problems over a very wide area.

Well, you can't "broadcast" it, but you can run an insululated wire all around the layout and connect it to pin 5.

Since the ground wire carries the airborne signal, and the antennas are usually in the top of the train engines, etc., then it works well being above the track that the engine is on.

I have an answer now, of sorts.

The receptacle tester I got showed good ground connections on all of the wall outlets and power strips I have been using.

So I set everything up again and went through all the options of floating the wall wart, running a wire from pin 5, not running the wire and connecting the wall wart to a grounded outlet and so forth. This time all options worked in terms of Legacy operating cars and a single Legacy loco on the track - with the exception of what I note below about the Legacy crane. In particular there was no tell-tale headlight flickering on the engine when it moved over any part of the track. 

However, while I habitually set up my ZW-C with two power bricks attached this time, in an unscientific/trial and error effort to eliminate another possible cause, I only attached a brick to the A channel. With the other brick attached to the D channel the problem recurred in that the crane and boom car would not respond to Legacy commands. This was so even if that second brick was attached to the transformer and just turned on with no power being fed from channel D to the track. 

Go figure. My ZW-C is of course pretty old as are the bricks but I have never noticed this issue before. At the moment I don't have time to review the old ZW-C manual to see if I might find a reason and fix for this there.

The only other thing to add is that I think that there must be some other signal problem somewhere. If I just plug in the wall wart as usual and don't have a wire from pin 5 the crane doesn't respond smoothly to the command to rotate the boom. The motion is jerky which suggests to me that there's still some signal interference. It works OK with the wall wart floated and the wire connected to pin 5 placed alongside the track.

P.S. I have the materials to construct a ground plane as G3750 suggested above, which I'll try when I next have time to set everything up.

Thanks again all who have responded for looking at this issue. 

Switch the A brick and D brick with one only being used on A to determine if the brick is the cause.

Edit: Also, post the codes from the bottom of the bricks, just for ha-ha's. There's an old weirdness on an old production run of the bricks. Hot and common were reversed.

Good to hear all of the electrical supply is good along with the legacy equipment and the crane car.

Moonman posted:

Switch the A brick and D brick with one only being used on A to determine if the brick is the cause.

Edit: Also, post the codes from the bottom of the bricks, just for ha-ha's. There's an old weirdness on an old production run of the bricks. Hot and common were reversed.

Good to hear all of the electrical supply is good along with the legacy equipment and the crane car.

The markings on the bricks are the same, P/N 6-02-2983-000 and engraved (or branded) on the casing is "2003 038." 

If the wiring had been reversed I think I might have noticed the effect before. I have used these bricks interchangeably over the years; I think that the problem is specific to the D channel or maybe the way I used to have it set up, which was controlled by a CAB1.  I reverted to manual control some years back when I went over to Legacy.

As the main part of ZW-C is an electronic controller (or so I understand) I am wondering if something has gone awry inside of it.

Hmmn...see attached, so the brick phase is not the problem. perhaps just a brick or breaker wearing out.

Moonman posted:

Hmmn...see attached, so the brick phase is not the problem. perhaps just a brick or breaker wearing out.

 

Well, learn something new every day. I had no idea that there was such a product. I had wondered about the two bricks not being in phase - but I'm not sure why the product information sheet means that isn't an issue in my case.

Hancock52 posted:

Moonman posted:

Hmmn...see attached, so the brick phase is not the problem. perhaps just a brick or breaker wearing out.

 

Well, learn something new every day. I had no idea that there was such a product. I had wondered about the two bricks not being in phase - but I'm not sure why the product information sheet means that isn't an issue in my case.

The number on the casing is greater than 2000 48 - hence not in the affected production run.

I've been wondering all along if the base output is low, say a volt pp or so. That would result in lots of variations depending on what was or was not connected. Not uncommon a couple of years ago.

cjack posted:

I've been wondering all along if the base output is low, say a volt pp or so. That would result in lots of variations depending on what was or was not connected. Not uncommon a couple of years ago.

That did not occur to me but having hunted around and found the threads about amplifying the Legacy base signal (but not it seems for the rolling stock control issue I have), I do understand that the Legacy signal output is materially weaker than it was with TMCC bases. So another thing learned in the space of a day.

Still, as far as I can trace my issue it relates to the transformer set-up. I'll be looking to test that again when I next get the chance.

I think it would be sufficient to measure the signal strength to see what you get.  Check out this thread.

Measuring the TMCC/Legacy track signal strength

My Legacy base, when working correctly, puts out about 6 V peak to peak from the U terminal compared to the third pin ground wire of the base ac wall power supply.

There are some pretty inexpensive oscilloscopes now, almost the price of an inexpensive multimeter.

Here's one with a bandwidth sufficient to measure the track signal.

http://www.nkcelectronics.com/...loscopedso-nano.html

I recently put together a JYE DSO 068 kit which cost about $60 and works well. The kit is not for the novice, but if you have the diligence and some experience, it's a great bargain.

https://www.amazon.com/06804K-...oscilloscope+diy+kit

Having a 'scope opens up a whole vista of capability, some thing that are very difficult to diagnose are easy when you can see what's going on in the circuit.

Have you used a portable AM radio to "sniff" for static interference from nearby devices such as CFL/LED lights or bad wall warts?  Easy to do.  See www.trainfacts.com for this and more suggestions.

I have seen several Legacy Bases that have clipped or distorted output signals.  The simple measuring device for TMCC signal strength will tell you if you are playing with only half a deck signal-wise.  (If you don't want to build your own diode circuit, I have them available, including the meter.)

Dale Manquen posted:

Have you used a portable AM radio to "sniff" for static interference from nearby devices such as CFL/LED lights or bad wall warts?  Easy to do.  See www.trainfacts.com for this and more suggestions.

I have seen several Legacy Bases that have clipped or distorted output signals.  The simple measuring device for TMCC signal strength will tell you if you are playing with only half a deck signal-wise.  (If you don't want to build your own diode circuit, I have them available, including the meter.)

I haven't checked for static interference although I suspected it. A couple of months back, we had porch lighting directly adjacent to what masquerades as my "train room" (the living room floor) replaced with LEDs.  My signal issues post-date that replacement. (There's also a lot of other LED lighting elsewhere in the area but that was there before this signal problem manifested itself.)

However, as noted above, the issue is not the same when the second power brick is disconnected from the ZW-C; I am not sure if this might somehow be related to static from other sources.

In any case, and thanks to GRJ's head's up on the base output issue, I now know about and think I understand your measuring device as well as how often Legacy base issues arise. I'll check it out on your website and be in touch.

I've been thinking of building a car with a signal strength meter on it using a radio card as mentioned in the above mentioned thread. Probably an led bar graph for easy observation as it goes around the layout. I think it could be called a TMCC/Legacy car and Lionel could market one, eh? They practically have the hardware already in other smart cars. Might be a good topic for the York breakfast meeting.

Sniff the bricks and ZW-C!