How has this topic turned into an Asian manufacturing bashing thread? We are talking about 1 model that is indeed defective and the manufacturer is doing what they can to address the issue. That's the topic. Quality control issues happen with every manufactured product regardless of origin. How a manufacturer responds to the issue is more important to me. There will always be a lemon now and then.
RonH posted:Imagine if China uses the same process / Quality control with their nuclear devices, aircraft, subs, and all of their military items.
Kind of make me worried?
I'm quite sure they don't, any more than we do.
Asian manufacturing deserves some criticism. While some products have great quality control many have QC issues. Asia has a history of manufacturing tainted products, and products that fail to meet spec. And formerly well-respected American brand names often sell out to mass production over maintaining a quality product. Here I'm thinking of companies like Snapper Mowers, now aimed and marketed at a mass market but of much lower quality. Cashing in on a brand name. Hoping, I guess, that the public never catches on, or is very slow to do so. Most of the once great American power tool companies, like Milwaukee, are going this same route. Lower quality, mass market. Trade on the name. It's a trend that's been going on for a number of years now. I think it is affecting our hobby to an extent. Couplers disintegrating is rather commonplace, and I've noticed screws and nuts that are either quite soft or very brittle. The zinc add-on trim parts are the same way. Some are very malleable and can take some bending, while others are brittle and snap right off with very little pressure. All zinc parts vary greatly in quality. So, yes I know that Asian manufacturing offers some advantages, like keeping heavy polluting industries like metal casting off shore, but it comes at a cost of being able to control quality.
Is it possible the casting was still too warm when it was painted, causing the paint to dry too rapidly, causing the cracking?
If one model is exhibiting this zinc pest problem it is probably going to show up in many others. there may have been many castings shot from the same tainted metal.
Ha this is a funny thread. Has anyone thought the real root cause is the design of the tool and its gates? Also have the runners been tuned in to shoot such a turbulent material that likes to play with oxygen? Zinc and Aluminum alloys love to create impurities as they are shot into any die. Tuning in a die take some time, sometimes the runners and gates have to be tweaked so the material does not create a cold shot. Or vice versa, to fast and it will start eroding the die while collecting impurities in the parts and decreasing tool life. Cooling lines may be necessarily, and the location of these are critical. Shot times need to be looked at too. Having a good mold flow analysis is critical too. This does not even get into finessing the parting lines, degating process, shot pressure, and cooling times...
This is where a GOOD tool engineer is worth his weight in gold. This is where American manufacturing has lost its way. Because, these guys are gone!
Also tools wear after so many shots... these parts may have been on the wrong end of that curve...
Material does play a key roll, and usually only 20 percent of re-shot material is used into the ingot. but when its reheated and reprocessed most all the impurities are burned away.
The good news is ; sounds like MTH will be replacing these shells.
David Eisinger posted:If one model is exhibiting this zinc pest problem it is probably going to show up in many others. there may have been many castings shot from the same tainted metal.
Many others of the same model, not different models. Every production involves a new batch of molten metal. It doesn't sit in a vat waiting for the next set of tools and dies to be set up. I certainly wouldn't trust the subcontractor who supplied the impure material ever again.
I'm sure MTH will take this up with its manufacturing partners. Just don't expect the discussion to be made public.
Dave Zucal posted:Is it possible the casting was still too warm when it was painted, causing the paint to dry too rapidly, causing the cracking?
The OP explained that the sides are bowing out. It's zinc pest.
I thought this thread would have ended when MTH said they would resolve the customers issue with a new shell when they can supply one. Sounds good to me, but the rant goes on! Why?
Because people have other things to say related to the topic. Zinc pest does make people nervous. Overly, in my opinion.
Keith, nobody is attacking MTH; they seem willing to do the right thing. My own experiences with them have been generally positive. But the topic does invite a wider discussion, and I have found it kind of interesting. Especially the post by J DADDY; I never thought of the casting process itself being so technical. I learned something today. Always a good thing.
Dave Funk posted:Has anyone noticed that the zinc pest shows up more frequently on later Chinese production and is less prevalent on older Korean production pieces? Manufacturer doesn't seem to matter as much as country of origin.
I had a frame on an 8-10 yr old Chinese made atlas o hopper go bad, and to Atlas's credit they replaced the whole car.
Plastics fail due to cost cutting and leaving out chemicals which keep the plastic pliable less prone to stress fracturing around screw holes . Bachmann had a rash of plastic failures in its large scale products.... again made in China.
I believe Chinese quality control in the basic materials used to make our RR items is at best poor and time alone will prove this out.
Dave
What you say reminds me of an article I read recently. As a physician I pay attention to pharmaceutical news. The article is about the inferior quality of chemicals from China used to make brand name drugs. The quality of the product can be degraded by the use of these chemicals during the production process.
I am not bashing the Chinese. It's just a reality statement about what we can expect from this country.
As a physician I specialize in addictionology. So I have a professional beef about chemicals coming out of China. The government has allowed mass production of Fentanyl and carfentanyl. These are like hamburger helper to heroin. They dump it in Mexico where it is then cut with heroin. Problem being the Fentanyl products are at least 50 times more powerful (but at a much lower cost) than heroin. The end product is an increased over dose death rate here.
Alan
scott.smith posted:colorado hirailer posted:Zamac on guns? Are we talking barrel, breech, and chamber? I don't wanta be on the range next to that! I have seen an air bubble in a safety that broke off a .22 pistol, and an air bubble in a clutch pivet that broke off on Sat. afternoon on IU game day in Bloomington, lnd. Luckily there was a guy working late in the closed CHRYSLER dealer and had the part so l got passengers home to another state. Anybody found air bubbles in train castings? Neither of these failures looked like zinc pest.
I was thinking the same thing. This appears to be a paint problem to me. The underlying shell is not warped and I don't see any bubbles. I have had the dreaded zinc pest and it didn't look like that. I have had a plastic engine and a passenger car that looks the same with some paint issues that looks like the pictures above. A repaint took care of the issue.
Scott Smith
I was thinking paint issue too. First, I noticed that the crazing went along the model but always stopped at the decal/appliqué. Why would a body issue be subject to appliques or a different color? Also, no one has said that the inside of the shells are also rotting.
Alan
ajzend posted:scott.smith posted:colorado hirailer posted:Zamac on guns? Are we talking barrel, breech, and chamber? I don't wanta be on the range next to that! I have seen an air bubble in a safety that broke off a .22 pistol, and an air bubble in a clutch pivet that broke off on Sat. afternoon on IU game day in Bloomington, lnd. Luckily there was a guy working late in the closed CHRYSLER dealer and had the part so l got passengers home to another state. Anybody found air bubbles in train castings? Neither of these failures looked like zinc pest.
I was thinking the same thing. This appears to be a paint problem to me. The underlying shell is not warped and I don't see any bubbles. I have had the dreaded zinc pest and it didn't look like that. I have had a plastic engine and a passenger car that looks the same with some paint issues that looks like the pictures above. A repaint took care of the issue.
Scott Smith
I was thinking paint issue too. First, I noticed that the crazing went along the model but always stopped at the decal/appliqué. Why would a body issue be subject to appliques or a different color? Also, no one has said that the inside of the shells are also rotting.
Alan
OK, guys, this is getting ridiculous. Read the recent comment (15 hours ago) by the original poster. He even posted pictures showing it. The body is bowing out. The casting is changing shape. MTH isn't denying the claim. This IS a zinc pest issue, not a paint problem. Enough already.
Here's Chug's quote, for those who seem to not read all responses:
"I may of neglected to mention in my original post that in addition to the crazing on the Box Cab body, the sides of the body are starting to bow away from the frame. It is definitely not just paint related. I am including a couple of addition pictures, but it is much more apparent when viewed in person."
I checked mine out and it seems ok for now. Hopefully MTH will offer a replacement for the defective ones at a good discount. People that pay out there hard earned money don't expect zinc pest no matter where it's made.
FYI to MTH and others, my new Railking die-cast GG1, 30-5118-1, purchased new last year and delivered in 2012 is starting to have spider web cracking in the paint and shell - exactly like the original photos. I have an RA in to MTH. and hope this will be addressed quickly and correctly.
GG1 4877 posted:How has this topic turned into an Asian manufacturing bashing thread? We are talking about 1 model that is indeed defective and the manufacturer is doing what they can to address the issue. That's the topic. Quality control issues happen with every manufactured product regardless of origin. How a manufacturer responds to the issue is more important to me. There will always be a lemon now and then.
Thank you! Asia produces a lot of fine products. People are quick to cast a shadow over an entire region's quality based on a few problems. Ignore the fact that you're all lining up to buy fine quality Legacy Lionel locomotives and such that are amazing quality. My recent products from MTH and especially 3rd Rail are stunningly awesome. My collection is large and spans the decades. Zinc pest has appeared in my collection only on the couplers of the early batch of MTH Amfleet cars. And other than my TurboTrain woes, everything else works well and looks great. Now, when a rare problem awakens, the response of the manufacturer is what really matters. Problems happen. It is how a company responds that matters most.
"Problems happen. It is how a company responds that matters most. "
Well said. I agree.
Here is some additional information. I have a friend who is a chemical corrosion analysis expert in a metals lab. One of the tools of his trade is an ICP, which does rapid analysis of multiple metals at once. Depending on how the instrument is operated and how the sample is prepared, one can get results from % all the way down to ppb. I gave him a MTH smoke unit (yes, some of the PS1 units are susceptible) and a Weaver troop car frame, both of which are exhibiting signs of zinc pest. He ran samples through the ICP and gave me the following information: Both pieces are likely ZAMAK 3 alloy, which is the most common of the ZAMAK alloys. The max spec for lead in ZAMAK 3 is 0.005%, or 50ppm. One sample was 40x over the spec, and the other one even higher. Other metals were in spec for the alloy. So lead is definitely a culprit. And since we have 2 different castings, from 2 different companies, both manufactured in China, and both with high lead, the most likely source of the problem is the materials used in the melts, which could have come from the same source. Companies having castings made in China need to be very vigilant spelling out what they want and checking that they are indeed getting what they order. Clearly the quality control game in China needs attention.
Chris
LVHR
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