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Timken 4 Aces

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June 11, 2013 8:59 PM

Somehow I missed this announcement  by 3rd Rail.  The 3 rail version is almost sold out.  What a beauty in Timken Green.  Check it out on the 3rd Rail site.

 

Norm

 
 
 
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June 11, 2013 9:06 PM

Remember, the pictures are of brass HO models. Otherwise yes, will likely be a great locomotive by 3rd Rail.

 

----Nick----

"All that I am or ever hope to be, I owe to my angel Mother."

 

 
 
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June 11, 2013 9:13 PM

Nick,

Thanks for your post.  I have purchased enough from Third Rail to know exactly what I will be getting,HO photo notwithstanding.

 

Norm

 
 
 
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June 11, 2013 10:33 PM

When is the delivery date? Anyone know? 

 
______________________________________________ A slobbering Milwaukee Road freak who misses Wisconsin!!
 
 
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June 11, 2013 10:41 PM

Here you go. Don


Timken 4 Aces - 4-8-4 #1111 - Northern Pacific #2626 A-1


Timken 1111, also called the Timken Four Aces, was a 4-8-4 steam locomotive built in 1930 by American Locomotive Company (Alco) to serve as a demonstration unit for new roller bearings produced by the Timken Roller Bearing Company. It was the first locomotive built with all sealed roller bearings rather than the friction bearings or a mix of the two types.

The locomotive's first demonstration runs were hauling freight on the New York Central Railroad. After those demonstrations, it was used on thirteen other major railroads, including the Chesapeake and Ohio Railroad, New Haven Railroad and Pennsylvania Railroad (PRR), in both freight and passenger service. The PRR used the locomotive on a passenger train where it hauled twelve passenger cars through the Allegheny Mountains so well that the train did not require the use of helpers and arrived at its destination three minutes early. (Wikipedia)

By August 1931, the locomotive had been used for over 90,000 miles (145,000 km) when it was delivered to the Northern Pacific Railroad, the fifteenth railroad to demonstrate the locomotive. With a dynamometer car in tow, the Northern Pacific was able to drive the locomotive as fast as a sustained 88 mph (142 km/h) while pulling the North Coast Limited passenger train past Willow Creek, Montana. However, while in service for the Northern Pacific 1111 suffered severe crown sheet damage. Timken demanded that Northern Pacific repair it, while Northern Pacific refused to repair a locomotive they did not own. The resulting agreement led to the sale of 1111 to Northern Pacific.

Sunset Models is proud to announce a special run of the 4-Aces in Timken Green #1111, NP A-1 Grey #2626 and NP A-1 Black Livery

 

RESERVE NOW


timken4a1

Photographs are Courtesy of BRASSTRAINS.COM and are of an

HO W&R Brass Locomotive.

 
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June 12, 2013 12:08 AM

The above write up misses a few important points.  The Timken bearing was a tapered roller bearing.  This means that both the radial and lateral loads were taken by the rollers. This allows the radial clearance to be adjusted by shimming the lateral clearance.  This results in very smooth and quite operation when the locomotive is in service If the bearings are properly adjusted.  The man behind Timken's success in the railway field was Dr. Oscar Horger. PhD from University of Michigan in Mechanical Engineering.  He was maybe the top mechanical engineer in the railway field in the mid 20th century. Some of his other accomplishments were the AP roller bearing for freight cars and the raised wheel seat axle.  He left Timken as the Vice President of railway engineering and started his own competing bearing company, known as Brenco.

 
 
 
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June 12, 2013 9:39 AM

Here's a little story about Timken roller bearings and steam locomotives...

 

Back in the early 90's, the 765's running gear was pretty tired. There was a lot of "slop" in the rod brasses and the driving boxes were no longer tight in the frame. This resulted in a lot of pounding as the locomotive ran, as the stresses on the pistons moved everything back and forth in step with the engine.

 

We were concerned that the pounding and the impact loads they represented were damaging the Timken roller bearings on the driving axles. We contacted Timken and discussed this with a senior design engineer there. He was well aware of the type of bearings we had and we soon realized that this guy really knew his bearings! He asked a few key questions and ultimately agreed to meet us at a service stop in Pittsburgh to inspect our running gear. This was back in 1993.

 

During the service stop we "bumped" the engine back and forth so he could see how much lost motion there was in the running gear. "Bumping" a steam engine consists of spotting the engine to place the crankpins on one side at the top of the wheel. Then the brakes are set, the throttle is opened slightly and the power reverse is run back and forth between forward and reverse several times. The engine does not move, but by moving the reverse gear back and forth, the entire running gear is stressed back and forth in each direction. All the looseness in the running gear can be seen while doing this, as the rods and driving boxes are pushed first forward and then backwards in step with the reverse gear.

 

As we cycled the reverse gear, we could see the rods move on the pins, (some of them had 3/16" of slop) and we could see the driving boxes move slightly in the frame. With each cycle, there was an audible thump as the driving boxes moved. After cycling the reverse gear 15-20 times under the close scrutiny of the Timken engineer, we moved the engine a quarter turn on the drivers so he could observe the action on the opposite side.

 

At the conclusion of our bumping session, the Timken engineer told us that in his opinion the roller bearings were fine. He based his opinion on the fact that it was very unlikely that we could damage the bearings in this LIGHT-DUTY APPLICATION! Timken actually considered the roller bearings on the driving axles of a steam locomotive to be a light-duty application. The engineer also told us that the roller bearings used on steam locomotives were so over-built that it was unlikely they would ever pose a problem. Obviously Timken did not want any of these bearings to fail in the field, thus the over-engineering.

 

His opinion was later confirmed when the driving boxes were split and the roller bearings disassembled during the 765's recent overhaul. Other than a little water damage to the rollers on the #1 axle, the bearings were just fine.

 

Today the 765's running gear is back to blueprint specs everywhere. There is no pounding, the rod brasses are fitted to a few thousandths of an inch and some of the crew think the locomotive now rides better than the tool car!

 

Rich Melvin, Publisher & CEO

O Gauge Railroading magazine

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June 12, 2013 10:39 AM

Neat story Rich! THX

 

____________________________

6000 miles on Amtrak in words and pics www.currtail.com

 
 
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June 12, 2013 10:53 AM

Yes Rich, interesting story. I still prefer the one about pulling out of "The Hole" with no diesel assist.

 

Russell, Msgt, USAF, Ret. http://roguespace.com/Trainpg.html

Maine 3 Railers

 
 
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June 12, 2013 1:02 PM

Beautiful locomotive but at $1500 it exceeded our "purchase price ceiling ..."

 
 
 
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June 12, 2013 2:08 PM

As beautiful as the Timken is the cost is just not in the cards for me. Wish it was but maybe MTH will make one at a more reasonable cost. 

 
 
 
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June 12, 2013 4:11 PM

What MTH will do is paint a (insert name of MTH scale 4-8-4 here) in Timken Green (who knew that there was such a thing?).

 

Not a dis of MTH; they offer lots of good stuff, but almost certainly if you want a 1111 you'll have to buy this one. I'm tempted. Not enough, but tempted.

 

Wait'll they go on "blow-out". And wait. And wait.

 

--------------

Ya know:

 

Had such a thing been constructed, that green makes me see, with very little squinting, a Southern Railway 4-8-4 (NOT called a "Northern", I'll warrant; "Dixies", perchance, as the NC&StL named theirs).

 
 
 
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June 12, 2013 4:50 PM

For those of us who don't want or have $1500 to spare or who may not live long enough for the 3rd rail item, how about kit bashing using a Williams Berkshire?

What MTH 4-8-4 Southern locomotive is available?

 

Al W.

 

 

 

R. Alfred Whiting

 
 
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June 12, 2013 5:13 PM

Originally Posted by The GN Man: 

Sunset/3rdRail did the NP A-3 class several years ago (as well as SP&S 700) and I'm sorry I missed it because they were stunning.

Sunset/3rd Rail also produced the NP A-4 AND A-5 classes, in different road numbers too.

 
 
 
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June 12, 2013 5:14 PM

Originally Posted by Al W.:

What MTH 4-8-4 Southern locomotive is available?

 

Al W.

Luckily, there is no such thing as a "Southern Railway 4-8-4"! 

 
 
 
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June 12, 2013 5:46 PM

we had purchased an o scale 2 rail estate and 1 of the items was a scratchbuilt 4Aces built by Bob Love.  I repainted and did minor work to restore this engine.  all decals I made in my shop.  I worked closely with a fellow in the Timken museum to get it right.  We sold this to Timken for $5K...they were thrilled and so were we.  it was to be used in their traveling display and displayed around the world.  enjoy the attached

100_0911

100_0912

100_0913

100_0914

100_0915

100_0916

100_0920

100_0926

100_0927

100_0932

 
 
 
 
 
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June 12, 2013 6:16 PM

A beatiful restoration.

 

My inquiry about MTh 4-8-4 is really "is there a 4-8-4 that can be repainted like

Four Aces or is there a 2-8-4 that can be converted" ?

 

Al W.

 

 

 

R. Alfred Whiting

 
 
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June 12, 2013 6:26 PM

Originally Posted by Al W.:

A beatiful restoration.

 

My inquiry about MTh 4-8-4 is really "is there a 4-8-4 that can be repainted like

Four Aces or is there a 2-8-4 that can be converted" ?

 

Al W.

Not anything on the market that even remotely would resemble something prototypically correct. But then, you could paint anything you want to Southern Railway, if that is your desire.

 
 
 
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June 12, 2013 8:45 PM

Hot Water:

 

It is not a Southern locomotive that I want but a reasonable facimilen of the

four Aces.

 

As an octogenerian (sp) I might not live long enough for 3rd Rail to come through.

 

Al

 

 

 

R. Alfred Whiting

 
 
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June 12, 2013 9:05 PM

MTH has painted a RailKing Santa Fe 2900 4-8-4 in different schemes, including a Reading T-1. Santa Fe models have long tenders; the others, a short NYC tender with a small water compartment and a big coal bunker. One of those could be a candidate for a facsimile of the Four Aces.

 

Another option is a Lionel Rock Island 4-8-4, made in several versions. Some of them need a bearing fix, but one could be painted to resemble the Four Aces.

 

Still another option is a MTH PS-1 4-8-4. They turn up now and then. Their electronics can be troublesome. Still, it could be better than nothing.

 

Good luck!

 
 
 
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June 12, 2013 9:12 PM

I thought THAT was a neat story above about Timken getting a model of a locomotive

that was part of their history.  Uh...where is the 4 Aces now, the prototype?...I assume

it was scrapped or maybe Timken would have glommed that....

 
 
 
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June 12, 2013 9:28 PM

Ahh. Timken roller bearings. Was buying OEM Covington England versions when I was rebuilding 60's Triumph motorcycles. Expensive as most parts were. Till I figured out that the corporate headquarters was in Connecticut and they would send me free samples of anything I wanted. Great bearings but in MHOP, while it may be worth it to some, no model is worth $1,500. of my dollars.
 
 
 
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June 12, 2013 9:41 PM

A fairly close approximation might be the Weaver 4-8-4 Pocono. Based on the pictures, the headlight would need to be lowered, and some other details given attention, but it would not be bad. Just check it out and make sure it runs and pulls before you start modifying it. (Mine runs very well.)

 

Chris

LVHR

 
 
 
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June 12, 2013 9:48 PM

Originally Posted by coloradohirailer:

  Uh...where is the 4 Aces now, the prototype?...I assume

it was scrapped or maybe Timken would have glommed that....

After her lengthy demonstration tour, Timken sold 1111 to the Northern Pacific RR, and she then became NP#2626. The NP eventually scrapped #2626 in the late 1950s, as I recall, when a young rail enthusiast tried to purchaser it. The NP worked with the young man, but eventually couldn't any longer, and 2626/1111 eventually was sold for scrap.

 
 
 
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June 13, 2013 2:30 AM

I hate to throw tepid water on the great news from Sunset but there are a few facts that should be set straight before some bad info gets perpetuated.

 

The "young man" working to preserve the Timken Locomotive was NP dispatcher, photographer and historian Ron Nixon.  He would have in his late 40s at the time.  Timken wanted to put the locomotive on display at their headquarters in Ohio.  The NP scrapped the locomotive themselves in September 1958 at the South Tacoma shops before arrangements could be made between the NP and Timken for the return of the locomotive.

 

While the damaged crown sheet story has been widely circulated the correspondence between Timken and the NP negotiating the sale of Four Aces exists and makes no mention of boiler damage or repairs.  Nor do the repair records of the 1111/2626 note any fire box repairs at the time of the locomotive's sale to the NP.

 

OK, now the fun stuff...

 

I am delighted to see an O scale model of the Timken Locomotive announced.  Four Aces is an incredibly historically significant locomotive.  It was also an exceptionally well designed and built locomotive.  It was built to demonstrate the superiority of Timken tapered roller bearings in both freight and passenger service.  The highlights of the demonstration runs include single-handedly besting the schedule of a Pennsylvania passenger train that would have required two K-4s and attaining 88 miles per hour as measured by the NPs dynamometer car as noted in the Sunset announcement.  The Timken Locomotive also started an 8000 ton coal train on the C&O.  With 73 inch drivers and the ability to shift weight to maximize adhesion it was a very versatile locomotive.

 

The Timken Locomotive was highly regarded by NP engine men and officials and was often selected for important trains including Presidential specials.  It was a favorite of NP photographers Ron Nixon, Warren McGee and Jim Fredrickson.  And it was a fan favorite too making its last run on August 4th, 1957 on a fan special from Seattle to Cle Elum over Stampede Pass. This run was extensively photographed and a sound recording of the trip was included on an LP record opening up the possibility of authentic sound for a model.

 

I will be very pleased to see this model join my Sunset GN O-8! 

 

 

 

 
 
 
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June 13, 2013 10:42 AM

3rd Rail will do this often requested locomotive RIGHT! I also suspect it will be some time before this lco hits the street so many of us can store away some cash. I don't anticipate this loco until sometime in 2014 for delivery.

 

Finally, for all you naysayers, it's far and few between a STEAM LOCO is done up in demonstrator colors, especially one that is painted other than black! I believe this is a "MUST HAVE" for many O guage and O scale Collections.

 

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June 14, 2013 8:22 PM

Hi Guys,

 

Very happy to hear that Sunset is offering this engine!   I have reserved the Timken version.

 

A question regarding the color "Brewster Green".  Does anyone know what exactly is this color.  I have color photos of a model of the Timken engine that someone built in, I believe 1" scale. It now resides in a museum close to the Timken factory in Ohio.  The color on that model is a much darker green, similar to the GN Glacier Green color, if not somewhat darker.

 

The reason I posted this question is that the posted color photos of the model above are of a much lighter green, much like the Southern Apple Green color.

 

Any info would be greatly appreciated,

Steve

 

 
 
 
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June 14, 2013 8:48 PM

Brewster green is a well known color.  It is a dark forest green with a little extra yellow added.  If you google Brewster green paint you will find lots of samples.  Nothing like the picture above.

 
 
 
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June 15, 2013 8:00 AM

Originally Posted by Norm:

Somehow I missed this announcement  by 3rd Rail.  The 3 rail version is almost sold out.  What a beauty in Timken Green.  Check it out on the 3rd Rail site.

 

Norm

Hello Norm, thanx for the update.  Must have missed this on their website.

 

I had their previous NP a-4 with a grey boiler.  This grey boiler engine features a red roof which the A-4 didn't have if I remember correctly.

 

Sunset continues to offer unique engines.

 
 
 
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June 15, 2013 9:47 AM

David Johnston

 

Thanks for this info.  Yes, it is a much darker green that is shown in the photos of the models above.  It appears that it was a popular color years ago on autos after doing a Google search.

 

I do hope Sunset does some research on the paint color and gets it right.

 

Steve

 
 
 
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September 17, 2013 10:43 AM

Regarding the Timken 4 Aces if one looks closely there is a marked resemblance (in my opinion) to what could be called a “stretched” NYC Hudson along with the style of the tender which even had a water scoop for NYC’s track pans as well as similar coal to water ratios.  Being that ALCO built her it is not surprising, in my opinion, that she looked like an NYC locomotive.  It’s a shame that NP could not have come to an agreement with Timken prior to it being scrapped.   I wonder what those 4 air horns she sported sounded like.  I would love to acquire one of the 3rd Rail 3 rail versions in Timken green but it’s a little too pricey for me at this point.  I’m also getting tired of Rail Sounds 4.  Some members have mentioned MTH creating one out of an existing engine which, in my opinion, sounds next to impossible in the Premier lineup.   Didn't MTH market a NP 4-8-4 some years back?  If so then possibly it could be re-engineered into the 4 Aces along with a tender from one of their NYC Hudsons models. Any other thoughts on this? 

 
 
 
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September 17, 2013 11:00 AM

Rich, that was a great story about the real 765. I'll bet you've got a whole bunch of them. I think you need a column somewhere to share them with us.

 

logo-1_5inch-transR     

 

 

 
 
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September 17, 2013 11:22 AM

Originally Posted by Allegheny48:

   Didn't MTH market a NP 4-8-4 some years back?  If so then possibly it could be re-engineered into the 4 Aces along with a tender from one of their NYC Hudsons models. Any other thoughts on this? 

No. MTH never offered a SCALE Northern Pacific A Class 4-8-4. Only Sunset/3rd Rail offered the various NP A Class, and SP&S 700 Class, 4-8-4 models in O Scale (both 2-Rail and 3-Rail). Although Sunset/3rd Rail did NOT offer the NP former Timken 4 Aces, NP #2626, at the same time.

 

This newly announced pair of models (Timken #1111, and NP #2626) should be really something to see.

 
 
 
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September 17, 2013 11:59 AM

And especially cool will be the 2626 in the grey boiler and red roof!

 
 
 
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September 17, 2013 3:44 PM

Not a dis of MTH; they offer lots of good stuff, but almost certainly if you want a 1111 you'll have to buy this one. I'm tempted. Not enough, but tempted.

 

Wait'll they go on "blow-out". And wait. And wait.

I think this is what many said about the weaver models BP20 brass at $1100.00 

I also believe these were the same people who thought the k-line demo berk Lima #1 was to be blown out at $350.00 as well......  never happened!

Do you think those people are still waiting too?

 

IMHO the green demo model will be the tough one to find out of all of the models being made by 3rd rail. Demo steam is hard to come by!

 

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September 17, 2013 4:05 PM

AL W -

 

At the risk of incurring the Wrath of the Resident Experts, and being fully aware of 3rd

Rail's (and others') glacial slowness (I got my reserved-3-or-4-years-ago NYC T-3

just yesterday), may I suggest a Weaver Rio Grande M-64 4-8-4 as a plausible

stand-in? (Some even had a green boiler; shade, I know not.) I have the loco - a black one - and it and the 1111 are not dissimilar in flavor. It, of course, would need paint and

lettering.

 

I got mine off eBay last year; brass; TMCC and sound (the chuffing is once a week, unfortunately), runs well, no cruise, price was pretty good - about 1/3 of what the 1111 will go for.

 

Now, the M-64 is not the 1111, I know that, but there you have it.

 
 
 
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September 17, 2013 4:11 PM

I have never seen a new product from 3rd Rail offered in a "blow out" sale.

Anyway,these "blow outs" are not really "blow outs" as far as I'm concerned.

To me a blow out would be at least a 50% price reduction or more!  These types of inventory reduction do not happen very often.

If anybody wants a green #1111 better reserve one now or wait for one to show up on  the secondary market.

 

Norm

 
 
 
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September 17, 2013 4:21 PM

Originally Posted by prrhorseshoecurve:

Not a dis of MTH; they offer lots of good stuff, but almost certainly if you want a 1111 you'll have to buy this one. I'm tempted. Not enough, but tempted.

 

Wait'll they go on "blow-out". And wait. And wait.

I think this is what many said about the weaver models BP20 brass at $1100.00 

I also believe these were the same people who thought the k-line demo berk Lima #1 was to be blown out at $350.00 as well......  never happened!

Do you think those people are still waiting too?

 

IMHO the green demo model will be the tough one to find out of all of the models being made by 3rd rail. Demo steam is hard to come by!

The former K-Line Lima demo Berkshire was a nice locomotive for the exception of an incorrect tender.  Lionel recently re-released it and, again, it has the wrong tender to be prototypical.  When I wrote to them and called their attention to this I never got a reply back.  For all the money they're asking for this engine one would think they would be a correct as possible.  If MTH did decide to make the 4 Aces I am sure they would do a good job.  I tend to favor their Premier engines over Lionel's. 

 
 
 
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September 17, 2013 5:08 PM

Originally Posted by D500:

AL W -

 

At the risk of incurring the Wrath of the Resident Experts, and being fully aware of 3rd

Rail's (and others') glacial slowness (I got my reserved-3-or-4-years-ago NYC T-3

just yesterday), may I suggest a Weaver Rio Grande M-64 4-8-4 as a plausible

stand-in? (Some even had a green boiler; shade, I know not.) I have the loco - a black one - and it and the 1111 are not dissimilar in flavor. It, of course, would need paint and

lettering.

 

I got mine off eBay last year; brass; TMCC and sound (the chuffing is once a week, unfortunately), runs well, no cruise, price was pretty good - about 1/3 of what the 1111 will go for.

 

Now, the M-64 is not the 1111, I know that, but there you have it.

I think you'll discover, those that want a Four Aces, want a Four Aces and not a stand in.

 

Rusty

 
 
 
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September 17, 2013 5:24 PM

OK, someone has to add: what about Lionel's 18016 (1992?). The grey boiler and red roof. This was the modified Rock Island Northern boiler and pilot. Well, they tried to make it resemble the NP 2626. They also did mark it that way. For the time, it was a good loco. Loco and tender is die cast, magne traction, smoke from stack and cylinders, constant voltage headlight and back up light, firebox glow, and early Railsounds. Also, they fixed the balky motor issues of the first two runs of this Northern. I have been running mine for years and it is a fine piece. Plus....made in the US. One day I will buy a scale unit, I like the 2626.

 
 
 
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