Track cleaning method that I never heard of before

I think no other subject on this forum cause folks to get their panties all bunched up. 

Back when I started using denatured alcohol...it was touted as the end-all-and-be-all because the "denatured" aspect of it was that the water had been removed...whereas "isopropyl" alcohol had water in and was going most assuredly cause disaster by rusting away the track.

Do any of you think that...maybe sometimes...O gauge railroad enthusiasts just try to make things more complicated and difficult than they really need to be?

Of course, just think how boring we would be if we agreed with everything!

I don't want to add fuel to the fire, but I think you guys are in some cases putting the cart in front of the horse. I understand if you are trying to clean track that is laid down is one thing, but if it is not it is another. While we have no magic answers yet, we have found because of the wide variety of issues the solution is sometimes a 2 step process. the 2nd step may very well remove the adverse chemicals needed in the 1st step to remove the majority of the staining. Anyway, that's what we figured out, and we learn new things every day. I am very interested in the simple green product though, as part of a multi step process. Will need to experiment with it.

There is no residue left on the track after it evaporates, in fact the 3% solution commonly available in a drug store will break down into water and O2.

THE DECOMPOSITION OF HYDROGEN PEROXIDE LAB 12
From Advanced Chemistry with Vernier, Vernier Software and Technology
Westminster College
INTRODUCTION
The decomposition of hydrogen peroxide in aqueous solution proceeds very slowly. A bottle of 3% hydrogen peroxide sitting on a grocery store shelf is stable for a long period
of time. The decomposition takes place according to the reaction below.
2 H2O2(aq)→2 H2O + O2(g)

I'd be more concerned about the 97% water on my track especially if it was tubular, and there isn't enough oxygen present in the solution to cause a violent reaction with the alcohol. It's actually a waste of hydrogen peroxide to use it this way. Now if someone were to endorse using a mixture of bleach and an ammonia solution I'd be concerned but the method in question is a non-issue as to safety concerns.

Tinman don't even try the Simple Green! there are a number of threads about track cleaning and we all know of the issues it caused Lee Willis. It gets into all the tracks cracks and crevices and isn't easily removed leading to corrosion.

Jerry

Frankly I prefer this method since it is very effective at leaving nothing behind:

Love it that will do it!

This is all way to scary, complicated and I'm sure there must be something else wrong with it all that hasn't been mentioned yet...I think I will just stop cleaning my track. I never much liked doing that anyway.

Found some who mixed this on you tube. If you note. The mixture immediately reacts. If that was in a closed container that would have exploded due to sudden increase of pressure.  Add a spark to that. It doesn't have to be a flame. 

ISOPROPYL RUBBING ALCOHOL 70% sold in stores has water in it. So the reaction would be less but still flammable. In the video the Hydrogen peroxide is the store bought 3%. Would I mix it no. The only thing I can figure is Walt's friend is wiping the track down first with Hydrogen peroxide then again with the Alcohol. That would be over kill.  Enjoy the video.  The track cleaning issue has been beaten to death. 

I use whatever paint solvents I've got around with a 220 grit sanding foam. then wipe it down. Works pretty well.

I read the whole thread and have no idea of how to clean my track.

I clean my track with grease; elbow grease that is. A dry Scotch Brite sponge followed up with a vacuum cleaner. Rarely do I use any solvent as it just seems to make it easier for the dirt to permeate into the area between the rails and along the sides of the roadbed. Best way to keep track clean is to run your trains and run them often.

It took me a while to figure this out and I can determine the age of my fastrack by how dirty the roadbed is.

quote:

 I am very interested in the simple green product though, as part of a multi step process. Will need to experiment with it.

I use Simple Green to clean various parts quite frequently. The parts are always well rinsed afterwards, and dried as quickly as possible. The biggest problem for me is flash rust, because the Simple Green seems to take off any oily metal protectant.

I'd guess that Lee had those severe problems with his track after using it because he was not able to effectively rinse the Simple Green away afterwards.

I have not used it to clean regular straights and curves. I have cleaned 022 switch bases after removing the switch motor, bottom cover, and insulating sheet.

Again, I think rinsing is key.

Yes, I agree, I am going to order some of this online. You guys have me inspired. We have a super-secret process of cleaning track that leaves a black residue on the track, and we are constantly looking for ways to remove it. Got my fingers crossed. I like your expression of flash rust. In Wisconsin where we tried a lot of processes, we run into flash rust all the time, but not in Arizona.  If you don't mind I would like to coin it into TinMan stuff.  It is one of the reasons we are so happy with the TinMan's favorite track.

Matthew, is the Fastrack any more or less amune to rust and staining then the old tubular? Buy the way, if you still have your old tinplate, we are very interested in buying.

For those of you who actually kept on topic, thank you!!!!!

This was not intended in any way to a "how should I clean my track?" thread.  I'm sorry that it somehow turned into that.  I follow the forum closely so I know it's been discussed a lot.

Apparently no one, at least no one on this forum that read my opening question, has ever done what my friend does.  haven't seen him yet but can't wait to.

- walt

Walt

I pointed out the hazard with his mixture. It would be a good guess nobody has used that combination. It did get people thinking.

Hi Walt,

    I look forward to learning exactly what your friend does. Thanks for sharing!  I am always interested in what works and new ideas.  BTW, that video shows chlorine bleach and alcohol.  I didn't see where the peroxide came in -- I looked at it 3 times. 

   Take care, Joe.

Hey I just thought of something to try!

Vinegar has good cleaning properties on hard surfaces such as glass and stove tops.

Baking soda has a mild grittiness to it that helps in cleaning too.

I wonder how clean I could get my tracks if I used these together?   LOL

Andy, what I can tell you is from our experience of reconditioning thousands of pieces of track, we have not discovered any one single answer. Chemicals are funny things I guess, they react with some compounds and are totally ignored by others. If I had to choose one chemical right now? It would be dawn dish soap. Abrasive medias are very  delicate. Too much and you have no plating left, too little and they do nothing. Wheels are great, but only if they are brass at very low rpms,  and then how do you clean them.   I have heard of examples of get it down to bare metal, then you have a great conductor. Absolutely true, just hope you don't mind dealing with flash rust (my new techy term thanks to one of you guys). Another was the heck with it, I run wires under the tracks and tie in at every other track.

We have visited and had extensive conversations with some of the finest metal finishers in the country, and still are looking. One guy we visited with a couple of sample pieces of track, said, no problem, put them in his blast cabinet, with 200 lbs of air pressure, 15 seconds later handed me the 2 tracks that were amazingly clean, onlyh problem, they had no plating left, no paint on the ties, and the exposed parts of the insulators were gone. The issue always comes down to the plating and tie paints. Too little, nothing is accomplished, too much...well you get the px.

 The only thing we have discovered that I have confidence is that the process that works is often a 2 or in some cases 3 step deal. We are still looking for that "magic simple solution" The closest we have come is taking advantage of the Arizona sun and lack of humidity, which enables us to wash off residues, without fear of rust. Even then if the humidity is over 20%, sorry Charlie! Actually got that idea from one of you guys, don't remember when, who talked about putting his track in an oven. Someone else used a dishwasher and  an old forced air furnace.  I promised OGR that I would publish a magazine article as to "how we do it" one day. We will do that, if we can ever come to an agreement on a single solution that seems to work. A fun example. We have had discussions regarding the "Korean war era track" that was galvanized. How many folks out there scrubbed and scrubbed to try to get that track to look like normal tinplate? (myself included) Try doing that with a chain link fence.

I've been using a small brass brush to clean my tubular and it's been doing a pretty good job. For inside the rail I have a small diameter tube brush. It takes a bit of elbow grease but it seems to work even on stubborn rust and doesn't seem to scratch the plating as badly as a steel one would. Afterwards I wipe it down with isopropyl alcohol and then a rag slightly dampened with WD40 and it looks pretty good.

Jerry

that round brush looks very much like a .177 air gun brush which would be just about right.

Ya know, in all fairness, I hope every one realizes that when we talk about cleaning track, the track is not installed on a layout. This offers us a lot more flexibility, then if the track has already been tied down. Some of the chemicals suggested, I am not sure if you would want to be using on a layout that is down. Especially if work has been done for roadbeds etc. Just a thought, it might be good when making suggestions if we noted whether or not we were talking about track that is already laid down.

One last tip. We have found that by removing the pins, cleaning and polishing, we use a small rock polisher, but watch the time carefully, and then using a track tool to squish the ends of the tubes, (both ends if you please) when reinstalling the pins they are a really tight fit. Using the track jigs previously discussed helps, but the friction of tapping the pins in with the rubber mallet seems to clean the inside of the tubes to the point, where we do not need to do anything additional.

We will be doing a lot more experimenting this summer with some new techniques, and promise to report to all the results.

When I restore old track, I make a measurement of the resistance between the pin and the rail using a Kelvin connection.  This allows me to measure accurately down to 0.0001 ohms.  I use a constant current source at 0.1 amps and a voltmeter that will measure to 0.00001 volts (10 micro volts).  0.00001 volts / 0.1 amps = 0.0001 ohms.  I set the limit of the resistance between the pin and rail at 0.007 ohms.  You cannot make this measurement using a VOM because the contact resistance of the probes onto the rail or pin and the resistance of the leads is much greater than 0.007 ohms. 

I had a floor layout recently that was 11 by 19 feet with 8 072 switches, 55 072 curves, 9 10" straights, 10 14" straights, and 3 40" straights.  It had only one feed from the transformer, and that was all it needed.  There was no observable slow down of the train anywhere on the layout.  

I use a small rat tail file in a drill to clean out the ends of the rails.  I tried wire brushes that I bought from McMaster, but they were a little expensive and didn't last very long.  When I installed the pins, I pinched the rail about 1/8" from the end of the rail and tapped the pin in with a pair of needle nose pliers.  The pins has to be quite tight to make a good low resistance connection.  

I splay two of the pins of each section (bend the rails where the pins are installed to spread the ends of the pins apart) so that there is good contact pressure.  Furthermore, if you splay the pins, you can take the track apart and put it back together and the contact resistance will be low, and you will not have to do anything to the track to connect it together again.  I use a flat blade screwdriver to take the sections apart so I don's flare the open ends of the rails.

hi servoguy, were at it again....I actually don't have one of those meters, saw one once, but got sticker shock!  But I do have a cool toy I use. Especially on the tin man  favorites, we set up lengths of 10 pieces and then hook up a 5oo watt ohmite variable resistor, I think it is 50 ohms but not sure. It came from a church that used it to dim the sanctuary lights before the days of solid state control. Originally I used it in our shop to check out DC low voltage power supplies.  Anyway we set it for a 3 amp draw with 15 volts at a transformer and premeasure the volts at the point of the load which is moved now to the end of the string. Over 11v we consider a pass.

Thought of you the other day, about done with the switch inventory now, went thru about 300. I ended up with about 10 or so that I just did not want to spend any more time with. Got a reverse senior moment and ordered some 14mm 1 amp reed switches. I want to try to hot glue them next to the slide switch, wire them across the switch, hot glue a magnet on the slide, one for red one for green. Seems logical, and will be a fun experiment. Total cost maybe a buck and 1/2 a switch. Will let you know how I come out. If it turns out to be a slam bam thank you sam fix, we might just incorporate it as a regular feature included in the recon process. I am thinking of just removing the slide contacts all together if it works, but I don't know. I can of course set it up for continuous draw, because some of the coils do draw over the ratings of the switch, but I figure for only the 1/2 second or so we should be ok.

 I did find a reasonable source for LED bayonet bulbs that work ok and are the right height, with all the electronics built in, but getting complaints that the color is not very nice. Thinking maybe of painting orange? Neat stuff. Shame you and I aren't neighbors, we could have a lot of fun with this stuff. Most folks as I am sure you are aware of think I'm a little weird getting a high over these kinds of things.

With a 4 volt drop and 3 amp current, the total resistance from the power source to the load resister is 4 volts / 3 amps or 1.33 ohms which is quite high.  If you measure the voltage across each of the track section connections, you can calculate the resistance.  

I'm more than perplexed by what was in that video - chlorine bleach and alcohol results in a haloform reaction producing chloroform - not flammable at all.  That visible foaming may just be the trapping of alcohol vapor that he's then initiating a fire with using that open flame. 

Peroxide and alcohol just produces oxygen.  3% peroxide is about as tame as it gets for a peroxide.  30% is routine stuff, and I've used both 70% and 90%.  That latter stuff was something funky to use, pipette into reactions, etc.  Been a few decades - seem to recall I was decomposing some sort of Pd catalyst for disposal..... 

Good times.

He had stated at the beginning that the peroxide and alcohol was already mixed. What you saw is exactly how a spontaneous combustion will happen. In this case he used a flame, but a spark will work just as quick. The peroxide will react with what ever matter that it hits( in this case bleach ). ISOPROPYL RUBBING ALCOHOL 70% sold in stores has water in it. So the reaction would be less but still flammable. In the video the Hydrogen peroxide is the store bought 3%.the Now if he used Denatured Alcohol the reaction would have been more violent. If you noticed it was the foam that caught fire.  (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txm7eu8KxVI&nbsp.  The by product of the Alcohol/Hydrogen Peroxide, is a form of ketone.  Chloroform is non flammable which is why the liquid did not catch fire. If you watch the link you will they put a stabilizer in it to prevent the mixture from producing Phosgene, which is a Toxic Industrial Hazard and Legacy Chemical weapon used in the WWI which is now banned under the CWC as a weapon.  Now understand I am trying to keep this simple.  Generally a mixture of less than 3% hydrogen Peroxide would have very little reaction but still would be flammable.  Obviously the higher the concentration the more volatile it becomes and I am not even talking about a mix with Denatured Alcohol which has no water in it. According to my ear doctor not recommended for use in your ear.  (Can cause temporary deafness) As a matter of record my 25yr in the army was spent in the force protection and remediation of WMD/Toxic Industrial Hazards on the battlefield. My last 5 yrs was still operations but  I also was operational part of CWMD. planning. Hence my background in HAZMAT

I too am interested to hear what he has to be say..  To me there seams so many different ways to clean track what's one more method.  So lets talk trains. I am done working as of 2013. 

To Servoguy, good idea, I suspect by doing that you would probably discover a suspicious culprit. I wonder if we could engineer some kind of inexpensive load to use for that purpose to find bad joints on an installed layout. Just break the joint near the lock on or primary power connection. You could then walk around the layout with a dvm until you hit the bingo joint. hmmmmm. You are better at the math then me, what about some sand hp resistors in parallel with a couple hd gators. This sounds like a great tech tip for our site. I have gotten several questions from guys about this issue, but I don't think they really knew what the actual issue was. In most cases they were looking for ghosts.

There was no spontaneous combustion present; the mixture was deliberately ignited!  The OP said nothing about chlorine being in the mixture.  Only Suzukovich introduced chlorine into the discussion. 

I haven't bumped into my buddy yet.  Still trying to though - i've been changing up the time that I go hoping to someday match to when he's there.

Can't wait to talk with him about this!

- walt

Joe

Yes bad choice of words. Yes it was deliberately ignited.  Although The title states hydrogen peroxide and alcohol on You tube.   This was his comment.

Hydrogen peroxide mixed with 70% rubbing alchohol in a 1:2 ratio then mixed with bleach makes alcohol vapor and pure oxygen bubble up and then I burn it. 

All it would take is a spark ( track cleaning car derails or using a powered track cleaning car).. Since you are removing carbon build up caused by oil, dust and other foreign partials, there would still be some reaction and foaming. It just depends on how much he is mixing and that even if he is mixing the two. It also depends on how he is applying it.. Its still a flammable liquid, and when using any flammable liquid around electricity care should be taken. 

That video has no place in this discussion.  I don't see your point at all.  In fact, given your military experience, why would you post that vid?  It only gives malicious ideas to troubled individuals or people wishing to do harm.

I was trying to make a point about the reaction of the mix. But what really scary is the fact that you can find a you tube video just about anything and there not even made by the bad guys. Just made by normal people. It was a real eye opener and there is no way to control it..

 How about just going back to train issues. Tinman although he cleans in bulk had talked about pulling the pins on the track and cleaning buildup inside the openings.  Something to think about since we generally just clean the tops.