Track/DCS Signal Lost at Switch

George S,

Sorry, I should've moved the star, it is actually the outside common rail where the plastic is.  Yes, the anti-derailing feature is working (this is where the switch corrects itself if in the wrong position, correct?)

It is possible, I have two switches that I bought on ebay coming today, so I will give one of them a shot and maybe change out the curve and piece that leads out from the switch.

I think you are talking about the plastic frog between the two switch legs. You can have plastic there, since the engine will get common from the metal rail on the opposite side. It is more likely that there is a short to the isolated section of the center rail inside the switch. It must be relatively minor, because it is stalling the engine, but not causing the power supply breaker to pop. However, this can cause overheating inside the switch. I have read two other threads where this was a problem. If the problem follows the switch, then you would need to open the bad switch to fix it, and there are a lot of wires inside, believe it or not.  You might be able to get a repair tech on the forum to fix it for you as an option.

George

George S posted:

You can have plastic there, since the engine will get common from the metal rail on the opposite side.

George

Sometimes your not getting common though, due to a rubber traction tire.

mjrodg3n88 posted:

BobbyD posted:

Do they do it facing in both directions? If you can get a mini jumper cable with one end on common and the other touching a metal engine piece see if they go thru then. Maybe a picture of an engine stopped. Still guessing they are loosing common there. Check to see that all the outer rails other than the no-derailing ones have constant common. IIRC the MTH lock-ons do not connect both outer rails.

No, its only when leaving the yard heading out onto the inner loop.  I've checked the common rail on the loop and it seems to be all connected.  I say "seems" because I've noticed a lot of the track's connections are bent up a little and I've had to fix quite a few

Worst case, you can even lightly drag just the engine along by hand and see if the issue occurs.

I push it after it shuts off and it turns back on after passing the one spot.  I'll post a picture at the bottom here of where it shuts off (forgot to take one last night.)

 The white star is where the metal rail stops and plastic rail starts, this seems to be when engine stops.  I dont know if this clears anything up though?

I would try adding jumper wires to the tracks attached to the switches. (MTH Realtrax does not connect the outer rails correct?) As the engines run ok in one direction and not the other I'm still leaning towards the rubber tires and no contact with common being your issue.

George S posted:

I think you are talking about the plastic frog between the two switch legs. You can have plastic there, since the engine will get common from the metal rail on the opposite side. It is more likely that there is a short to the isolated section of the center rail inside the switch. It must be relatively minor, because it is stalling the engine, but not causing the power supply breaker to pop. However, this can cause overheating inside the switch. I have read two other threads where this was a problem. If the problem follows the switch, then you would need to open the bad switch to fix it, and there are a lot of wires inside, believe it or not.  You might be able to get a repair tech on the forum to fix it for you as an option.

 I took one apart the other night just to see what was in there.  If something were to need fixed, I think I'd be able to do it.  However, I now have more issues, ugh.

BOBBYD posted:

I would try adding jumper wires to the tracks attached to the switches. (MTH Realtrax does not connect the outer rails correct?) As the engines run ok in one direction and not the other I'm still leaning towards the rubber tires and no contact with common being your issue.

So I was going to try this if the new switch fixed the issue, but now I have so many more problems...

 

 I replaced the switch in question with one I received yesterday, pulled the Dash - 8 out of the yard and went through the new switch with no problem (I also switched the first curve right after the switch.  Problem solved, right?  Not so fast, the new switch would not swing the other way, it would go half one and lose all power.  I did some trial-and-error and figured out that when any switch that comes after this one (in the yard), it will have this issue.  UNLESS.... I isolate the outer common rail between this switch and any other.

Okay, so there's my new issue, but the old one in the red circles, the crossover from inner to outer loop is back.  When I thought I "fixed" it, my fix was to no isolate the inner and outer loop (I didn't remember doing this.)  So, I isolated the two switches from one another and the problem is back, but not only that, I'm having a really weird issue.  If I used a lighted lockon and touch any rail on the outer loop to any rail on the inner loop, the lockon does not light up (for any combination.)  If I connect it to the ground (either outside rail) on the inner loop and hot on the inner loop - light up and the same when I repeat the process on the outer loop, but nothing when doing it from loop to loop.  

One thing I am noticing though (this is still in the red circle cross over) is this:

I'm starting to get discouraged with this.

mjrodg3n88 posted:

George S posted:

I think you are talking about the plastic frog between the two switch legs. You can have plastic there, since the engine will get common from the metal rail on the opposite side. It is more likely that there is a short to the isolated section of the center rail inside the switch. It must be relatively minor, because it is stalling the engine, but not causing the power supply breaker to pop. However, this can cause overheating inside the switch. I have read two other threads where this was a problem. If the problem follows the switch, then you would need to open the bad switch to fix it, and there are a lot of wires inside, believe it or not.  You might be able to get a repair tech on the forum to fix it for you as an option.

 I took one apart the other night just to see what was in there.  If something were to need fixed, I think I'd be able to do it.  However, I now have more issues, ugh.

BOBBYD posted:

I would try adding jumper wires to the tracks attached to the switches. (MTH Realtrax does not connect the outer rails correct?) As the engines run ok in one direction and not the other I'm still leaning towards the rubber tires and no contact with common being your issue.

So I was going to try this if the new switch fixed the issue, but now I have so many more problems...

 

 I replaced the switch in question with one I received yesterday, pulled the Dash - 8 out of the yard and went through the new switch with no problem (I also switched the first curve right after the switch.  Problem solved, right?  Not so fast, the new switch would not swing the other way, it would go half one and lose all power.  I did some trial-and-error and figured out that when any switch that comes after this one (in the yard), it will have this issue.  UNLESS.... I isolate the outer common rail between this switch and any other.

Okay, so there's my new issue, but the old one in the red circles, the crossover from inner to outer loop is back.  When I thought I "fixed" it, my fix was to no isolate the inner and outer loop (I didn't remember doing this.)  So, I isolated the two switches from one another and the problem is back, but not only that, I'm having a really weird issue.  If I used a lighted lockon and touch any rail on the outer loop to any rail on the inner loop, the lockon does not light up (for any combination.)  If I connect it to the ground (either outside rail) on the inner loop and hot on the inner loop - light up and the same when I repeat the process on the outer loop, but nothing when doing it from loop to loop.  

One thing I am noticing though (this is still in the red circle cross over) is this:

 

 

I'm starting to get discouraged with this.

Isn't the short (blue here) outer rail the one which on being connected to common via the wheel sets activates the non derailing feature from that leg? If so it needs to be connected to common, it is not normally common.

Without being there I'd say all your issues are loss of common by the engine either from the rubber tires, the non derailing rails on the switch legs, or both.

I like to use a Light bulb ( auto type tester) and touch the center rail with one lead and leave it there. ....Now  touch  all the  outside rails  with the other lead to make sure the bulbs lights up .  (except the short non derailing section)

ALL   -Yep both sides on   all track you can reach,

You can also reverse the process.... Clamp on the outside rail and check out the center rail for power.

Forgot to mention.... No engines or rolling stock on the track when testing.  

Bobby, 

Is that how the non-derailing feature works?  Honestly, I do not understand how it works.  

Gregg,

I do have a 12V tester I could use, I was just using the lock on the same way, have two leads coming off of it and touching the rails.  So are you saying the short section should be working as I described?

Also, I was wondering about stuff on the track if that would affect anything, because thats the only thing different now, I have about 6 cars on the outside loop and the Dash-8 on a yard track.  I'm assuming that will make a difference?

mjrodg3n88 posted:

Bobby, 

Is that how the non-derailing feature works?  Honestly, I do not understand how it works.   

Yes, it completes the circuit via the wheel sets and the other outer rail and throws the switch for that path. The two short rails do not have the springy connecter underneath correct? They may even be a little shorter than the adjacent rails to guarantee not touching the rails on the connecting track. You have a nice layout of two "concentric ovals" connected with a crossover that has a small yard off the center loop, it will work!

What is the item number of the finicky engine? Even a 6 axle diesel which has a blind axle is like a 4 axle locomotive where only 2 wheels on each truck make contact with out rubber interference

mjrodg3n88 posted:

Gregg,

Also, I was wondering about stuff on the track if that would affect anything, because thats the only thing different now, I have about 6 cars on the outside loop and the Dash-8 on a yard track.  I'm assuming that will make a difference?

Yes, as Gregg said if you test with rolling stock on the track it messes up your results.

Mike,

   Having two inner circles of RealTrax one on my 1st level and one on the top level, I have  had signal loss on both those circles at different times, and never did figure out just why it happened and I even removed the RT switches in those RT loops.  My RT loops are the 1st generation track (solid).  Mike this may have more to due with your choice of Track/Switches than you know.  I hate to tell you this, because you have already invested heavily in the RT, I use FasTrack because I have had so many problems with the RT Switches and especially the hollow individual track sections, I actually gave most of it away.  I kept the solid RT inner loops because 031 FT will not work inside 036 FT, you might want to consider switching over to FasTrack, you will have a lot less problems and the FTCC switches are great.

Sorry I missed which track you were using, or I would have posted this in my very 1st answer to your problem, missed the lock on's completely and the track in the picture looks light gray to me.  Color blind I definitely am.

PCRR/Dave

If your power supplies are now truly in phase, you should not be isolating the outside rails between loops. Recheck your power supply phasing. Try using this procedure from Lionel 

https://lionelllc.wordpress.co...hasing-transformers/

Then, as others have said, you need to make sure you have common feeds to both outside rails at various points on the layout. MTH Realtrax does not do this for you and neither will putting all lock-ons on the same side of the track. You  can either flip some of your lock-ons to the other side of the track (at least one per loop and in the yard), or you can connect the rails with a feed wire under the track. BTW, Lionel Fastrack does not have this need, because all standard track sections come with the outside rails connected by design.

Then, I would inspect the new switch. I suspect something is electrically connecting the isolated section of the center rail and triggering the anti-derailing feature full time.  This could be that the rail moved and is no longer isolated (you need to push the rail back to create the isolated spacing) or something metallic got caught between the isolated sections.

Lastly, before you run things again, clean your track and switches. You said some of the was used. Use some alcohol on a cloth, then wipe it dry with a clean cloth. For really dirty areas, where you can see or feel the dirt, use a Scotch-brite pad.

Don't get discouraged. This is a great layout, that will be lots of fun. 

George

George,

   What you say is true however RT switches have lots of problems with many different engine, and some of the individual newer track is a night mare.  I wish him good luck if he was out of phase, unfortunately that will probably not be his only problem.

I agree great layout however wrong track & Switches.

PCRR/Dave 

Pine Creek Railroad posted:

George,

   What you say is true however RT switches have lots of problems with many different engine, and some of the individual newer track is a night mare.  I wish him good luck if he was out of phase, unfortunately that will probably not be his only problem.

PCRR/Dave 

Your right Dave. These switches are not great, but I think that ship has sailed. I think each one can be made to work, but as you note, there can be multiple problems to troubleshoot with these. When buying these switches used, you may be buying someone else's problems. If they are new, you can make it the dealer's problem and return bad ones for one that works.

There are several posts on the forum where folks have successfully fixed these. However, you could always run into one that is a lost cause.

George

Also, I was wondering about stuff on the track if that would affect anything, because thats the only thing different now, I have about 6 cars on the outside loop and the Dash-8 on a yard track.  I'm assuming that will make a difference?

Yes the  wheels act like a piece of wire joining  the outside rail together. You need to determine if the outside rail are all connected  together   by themselves.... Then add jumpers or another lock on  if needed. Yep A volt meter will also work.

So, I don't have any of these MTH Realtrax switches. I had the MTH Standard gauge switches, but the anti-derail feature works a little different. On the Std gauge switch and the Fastrack switches, the center rail of each switch leg has a built-in, insulated break filled with plastic. I inspected a Realtrax switch at the store the other day, and they do not have this. The entire center rail of the switch leg is meant to be insulated. So, if the center rail of a switch leg is too long from the factory or has moved and is contacting the adjacent track, it is no longer insulated and will trigger anti-derailing permanently for that leg. The solution is to push the rail back to create a gap or to file/grind the rail back. This may help the problem with the switch that refuses to throw.

George

Okay, so its been a few days but this is what I have found and also what I have done/changed.  I swapped the O42 LH switch with one that was in the yard and I'm no longer having the issue I was talking about.  Engines do hesitate and sometimes spark in the middle of the switches in the yard though (over top of the one previously giving me issues.)  

Also, the problem at the switches between the inner and outer loop that was giving me problems... After I got it working before, I insulated the center pin before the two switches (I thought this needed to be done to keep the loops separate, not true.)  I removed the electrical tape that was insulating the loops and voila, a smooth transition with all engines that I've tried.  Two PS2 engines (the Dash 8 included) and a conventional.  It seems like I fixed most issues.  I definitely have a few dead spots that the conventional engines find, but not the command engines.

Thanks for the update and glad things are working!  Again, great layout!

Sounds like there is a problem with that sparking O 42 switch you put in the yard.

George

MJ,

   I have been waiting for your update, glad you got the problems worked out, nice going especially with RealTrax switches.  Congrats on a great effort & success!

PCRR/Dave

mjrodg3n88 posted:

Also, the problem at the switches between the inner and outer loop that was giving me problems... After I got it working before,I insulated the center pin before the two switches (I thought this needed to be done to keep the loops separate, not true.)  I removed the electrical tape that was insulating the loops and voila, a smooth transition with all engines that I've tried.  Two PS2 engines (the Dash 8 included) and a conventional.  It seems like I fixed most issues.  I definitely have a few dead spots that the conventional engines find, but not the command engines.

Not sure I understand this. In the original post the outer and inner loops were on Variable 1 and Variable 2. Electrical tape between the center rails of the two switches center rails should not have any affect on how the engines operate over the joint as you powered each loop individually. If those two short curved center rails have track power they must be insulated from each other including the brass wiper underneath or they connect the two power sources at the joint correct?

BobbyD posted:

Not sure I understand this. In the original post the outer and inner loops were on Variable 1 and Variable 2. Electrical tape between the center rails of the two switches center rails should not have any affect on how the engines operate over the joint as you powered each loop individually.

 The outer is on Var 1 and inner on Var 2.  I thought the same thing about insulating the center rails at the crossover, that it shouldn't have any affect on the engine, but for some reason it did.  

If those two short curved center rails have track power they must be insulated from each other including the brass wiper underneath or they connect the two power sources at the joint correct?

That was my thinking also.  Something weird was going on when they were insulated from one another though.  If I had them insulated, then tested a lock-on between the two, it would not light up.  I would have a positive wire coming from a lockon (the lockon was just handheld) to the center rail on the curve of one of the switches and a common going to the other switch or loop's outer rails.  It would not light up, I tried every combination of the two and it did not light.  Both loops were getting 18v and the lockon would light up if I tested on only one of the loops and didnt cross them.  At the same time, the lockon would not light up when crossing channels at the tiu outputs.  The TIU also has a solid red light on (is this normal?)  

mjrodg3n88 posted:

BobbyD posted:

Not sure I understand this. In the original post the outer and inner loops were on Variable 1 and Variable 2. Electrical tape between the center rails of the two switches center rails should not have any affect on how the engines operate over the joint as you powered each loop individually.

 The outer is on Var 1 and inner on Var 2.  I thought the same thing about insulating the center rails at the crossover, that it shouldn't have any affect on the engine, but for some reason it did.  

 

Mike, something is not quite right then as all the Gargraves/Ross layouts using "Star/Home Run" wiring have the open center rail (missing pins) between the blocks which in practice is the same as your tape.