Track pliers... which work best?

quote:

Hi Charles, There you have it... What kind of answer is that?

IMHO its a reasonable answer.
I'd expect that most of the folks participating on this board would have absolutely no problem using a pair of track pliers to reform track ends. But one does have to know enough to put a pin (or something similar) in the end of the track, and use a little finesse to get the shape right.

And if someone knows how to use track pliers to easily reshape the track ends for "O" and "027" switches, and/or UCS uncoupling tracks, I'd appreciate reading about it.

If they claimed that the pliers would reshape the rails, there would surely be complaints from folks expecting magic.

Hi CW, Respectfully, you are not correct. If the track pliers are correct for the track you do not need to have a pin in the track at all. The pliers simply reshape the tin to round rail head & flat web. If the foot is distorted, you need to straighten that seperately with the smooth end of track pliers as you would with regular pliers.
It takes no skill at all to reshape the rail. Simply start back near the tie tie crimp & work towards end. Usally 2 squeezes is all it takes. Often only 1. Most often the foot comes back into place also. It is most easy to reform with no pin.
The user must have enough grip to squeeze hard enough. Doesn't take much to reform the rail. I know the average train person can do it with one hand. However... In place rail takes a harder squeeze. Probably 2 hands in worst case. If a person is feeble they would need to get help.
CW, if you used the pliers you'd understand how they work & form. The folks at the hobby shop would also.
From what I can see in the photos the pliers shown would reform rail nicely without a pin. I would need to see them gripped tight on the rail to know for sure though. The hole size & how far the hole is from the end determines what track they will work on. Again from the photo the construction looks good.
Very best, Don Johnson
Very

quote:

CW, if you used the pliers you'd understand how they work & form. The folks at the hobby shop would also.

I've only been using track pliers for the past twenty five years.
When the ends are significantly distorted, the pin acts as an anvil and the techniques I mentioned are required.

I put a pin in if the ends are really bent up as well, it does make it a lot easier to get the track right.

What stops the track from "relexing back" some after squeezing it tight? "Reflexing" is probably a poor word choice but I can't think of a better word.

Answering that question in my own mind is THE main reason that I never bought a pair of the pliers.

It's also why, when a tubular rail opening gets "too big" and I want to resize it, I do it without a pin. I use needle nose BTW. I make the hole smaller than the pin and then tap the pin in. If I leave the pin in and try squeezing the rail under the pin, the rail opens back up some.

thanks - walt

The pin in the hole is only when the end is sufficiently malformed that the pliers won't do a decent job, if I'm just closing up the end a bit, I don't put a pin in. As C.W. mentioned, it serves as a shaping anvil and allows you to form the track without screwing the end up further.

Hi CW, Please accept my appologies. I didn't mean to sound rude or harsh. It seems we have a differece in how we use the tools. That is fine.
I'm glad you mentioned your pliers again. I went back & reread the posts.
What size rail did you modify your pliers for? What size did you enlarge your hole to? Do you feel the ridge in the hole that crimps the pin is useful? What has your experiance been with tightening pins on installed track.
All my holes are smooth inside. I'm thinking the #29 hole I did would be more versatile if it was a bit smaller. Not sure how much smaller yet.
I don't seem to need a pin in the hole yet for resizing. Even the really bad ones come back nicely.
Very best, Don Johnson

Hi CW, So, you have the whole set. That is fantastic! If you were going to do a detailed review of them all what would you say? Would be great to know how they all work on different rails, with/without pins etc.
What size is the hole in the Lionel-Krauter ones? I've never seen a genuine pair in my life. From the photos on ebay it looked like the latest pairs were very different from the old post war ones. Or.. was the ends broken/damaged??
Very best, Don Johnson

Hi Walt, Just as you think the rail does spring back. However, the strech/compression of the tin is greater than the spring back, so the pin is tightened. A pin that can be wiggled with a finger will feel tight after squeezing. I find I have to squeeze hard. I find the much smaller hole pliers works better for installed track.
On the pliers I made, the hole is a bit smaller than the rail head to compensate for that when resizing rail pin out.
I will say it plainly, I haven't been able to make an in place pin as tight as it would be if the rail is resized pin out. I bought some new Lionel O track to use as a control. The resized track is still not quite as tight as new track. However if resized with pin out, rail fits quite tight. Would not need to be tighter. Very hard to push together by hand.
Very best, Don Johnson

Hi CW, Wow! That is exactly what I needed to know. Thank you, thank you, thank you! Very interesting the hole sizes. It seems with the 384 Lionel was trying to split the difference so to speak. I guess to get by with only 1 size for both rails.
I'll do a little more work tomorrow night & see what I can come up with.
Interesting observation of rail construction I noticed today. Looking at the bottom of the rail foot, on O track some straight rail the web has a gap wide enough to put a buisness card in. Others have no gap. New (China) straights have very wide gap. Curves have practically no gap at all. 027 is mostly no gap straight or curve. I have no idea why the variation. I have noticed on the no gap track, it's harder to tighten installed pins.
Very best, Don Johnson

quote:

Hi Walt, Just as you think the rail does spring back. However, the strech/compression of the tin is greater than the spring back, so the pin is tightened. A pin that can be wiggled with a finger will feel tight after squeezing. I find I have to squeeze hard. I find the much smaller hole pliers works better for installed track.
On the pliers I made, the hole is a bit smaller than the rail head to compensate for that when resizing rail pin out.
I will say it plainly, I haven't been able to make an in place pin as tight as it would be if the rail is resized pin out. I bought some new Lionel O track to use as a control. The resized track is still not quite as tight as new track. However if resized with pin out, rail fits quite tight. Would not need to be tighter. Very hard to push together by hand.

Thank you for the added review comments Don!

- walt

Hi Guys, Sorry I didn't post any photos or progress. Kind of got side tracked by car problems. (automobile, not train cars). Will have another go at it next week.
Very best, Don Johnson

Ok. Finally I was able to photo my track piler project. Here is links to the photos. I think this will clearify how they work. All the track was just regular track from train shows. No tricks or games. This is the real deal.




If these don't print, can somebody help & post them here. Thanks.
Very best, Don Johnson

Sorry, photos didn't transfer. Help! Here are the 3 files. I couldn't get them to take in just 1 file.
http://ogaugerr.infopop.cc/eve...3102703/m/7852944327
http://ogaugerr.infopop.cc/eve...3102703/m/4762944327
http://ogaugerr.infopop.cc/eve...3102703/m/4762944327
Thanks, Don Johnson

A pair of original 027 Track Pliers are on Ebay this week. The two large notches in the cutting section, towards the hinge are not original. The small notch in the cutting section towards the end is original. They aren't mine.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/320833...eName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT

Hi again, Sorry, I didn't post the 3rd photo set correctly. Here is the 3rd set of straightening a bent rail end.
http://ogaugerr.infopop.cc/eve...3102703/m/4772944327
Very best, Don Johnson

Hi CW, Thanks for the link. You have a set like those. How well do they work on 027? Can they tighten a loose pin on installed track?
Very best, Don Johnson

Hi All, Did you see the photos? What do you think? I guess I expected some feed back on your thoughts about how the pilers work. How does this compare with needle nose?
Very best, Don Johnson

I'm still on the fence on how "reflex" reaction doesn;t come into play!

One thing that I apprectiated about the photos, because I wanted to ask a question about it, is how the pair with the hole near the tip of the pliers functioned on the center rail with the insulation piece. Seems that it does.

Thanks for posting

- walt

Hi Walt, Of course reflex comes into play. I drilled my hole #29 drill (.134"). Now, that is a bit smaller than O rail head (aprox. .140"). At the same time the jaws have some clearance ground top & end. More clearance at end for rail web clearance. When looking close at my pliers the hole becomes slightly oval after grinding. So all told, the over squeeze, reflexes back to a good fit & shape. I know you can understand that.
Now, with installed track you have the pin that stops the squeeze short. That is very true. However, a good hard squeeze still gives some shape to a tighter fitting pin than it was. I can't really say for sure, but my feeling is the compression & stretch of the tin around the installed pin is enough to compensate for reflex. Keeping in mind the rail tin is quite soft, it doesn't have a dramatic amout of reflex. As I said before the pin is not nearly as tight as if no pin in while reforming. Not even close. However, it's tight enough to make good electrical contact.
Now curves are different. Installed pins tighten quite well. I feel this is due to the straight fit of pliers on curved rail tends to straigten the rail ever so slightly, resulting in a nice tight fit. I full well realize pins are all straight, but the rail still curves at the ends.
Very best, Don Johnson

Thanks Don.

- walt

Hi Walt, I'm going to train show Sunday & think I'll get a different pair of pliers. We'll see how they turn out.
Later next week I hope to move onto the 027 pliers. Olsens is suppose to be sending me another pair drilled correctly. I got an email from Sharon the other day, so I expect them here mid next week.
I know you intrest was 027.
Very best, Don Johnson

I have a totally different approach to keeping the pins tight. Holding a track section with the pins pointing away from me, I bend the left rail where the pin is installed to the left and the center rail to the right. I bend the rails to offset the end of the pin about half of its diameter. I don't have to reform the open end of the rails and only have to do this operation once. Once the rails are bent, I can disassemble and reassemble the track sections as many times as I want to without using any pliers. This is a permanent fix. I wish I had thought of it 50 years ago. This not only makes a tight fit of the pin into the open of the mating track section, but makes the pin fit tight in the rail where it is installed. It is important for a good connection that there be some pressure on the pin and socket. The inside of the rails where the pins make contact must be clean and free of rust in any event.

Needless to say, I don't have any track pliers. If I want to crimp a rail to hold a pin, I use a pair of ordinary crimping pliers normally used for wire terminals. I come under the pin with the pliers almost parallel to the track section. The track pliers would work better, but I don't do this very often.

Hi CW, Way off subject of track pliers, but do have a genuine Lionel press clincher tool ST350-11?
If so I need to see a photo of the clincher end of it. If possible.
Anybody else that may have one, feel free to post photo also in case CW doesn't have one.
Thanks much.
Very best, Don Johnson