Train Control

If you want to run the TMCC locomotives in command mode, which would certainly be my choice, you'll need a TMCC command base at a minimum.  If you already have TMCC, either a BASE1/CAB1 or one of the Legacy systems, you just need the Lionel 6-37146 Legacy Powermaster, that allows you to run the PS/1 and conventional locomotives from the TMCC/Legacy remote.

You can also do the job with just a TMCC Command base and the MTH 50-1001 DCS System.  In that case, you connect the TMCC command base to the serial port of the DCS system using the TIU/TMCC-Legacy 6' Connector Cable.  If you're happy running the TMCC stuff in conventional mode, you can just use the MTH DCS system with no additional stuff.

GRJ's suggestions are right on the mark. An alternative, especially if you already have a TMCC Command Base and Cab1, is simply to convert all your non-TMCC locos to TMCC using ERR components. Depending on the number of locomotives you have, this could be done one or two at a time as funds permitted. This would then permit operation of all of them under one simplified command system (TMCC).

jackson

I understand your confusion.  Just made the leap myself (to interest succeeding generations in taking some cherished trains off my hands) and bought the following to accomplish exactly what you want to do:

• 6-14295 #990 Legacy Command Set
• 6-37146 Legacy PowerMaster
• 6-22983 180-Watt PowerHouse

A PowerMaster and PowerHouse are required for each loop or block of track. 

There are other ways to achieve your objective, but all products making up this solution are readily available and the solution is 100% backwards-compatible from Legacy to Postwar.      

Remember that:

- TMCC (or Legacy; they are compatible) is a "command" system - you are addressing the locomotive directly, by "name" (that is, number). Obviously you must have the TMCC or Legacy system on your layout (ridiculously simple installation) and locomotives that can receive the signal - that have the proper equipment inside.

Neither TMCC/Legacy nor your 1975 diesel know each other exists. Your Powermaster will run your conventional/PS1 stuff. 

- operationally, PS1 locos are "pure" conventional, just as much as one built in 1930 with an e-unit. Variable voltage track, not loco, control. PS1 was not and is not a command system

(PS2/3 can be command systems). They cannot be as "independent" as a command loco -

all will respond to variable track voltage inputs - just like 1955.

- You need a new Lionel CAB1L system - just get the set. Then get a new Powermaster.

You can address your TMCC/Legacy locos with an engine number (using "ENG" button).

This is command control.

For your conventional locos (old or new), you can address your Powermaster ("TR" number), which is simply a "remote conventional throttle" - it's like an electronic connection to an old-fashioned transformer knob or lever. FWD-N-REV. 

This is Remote Control of a transformer - not Command Control of a loco.

- You will have to keep your Command and Conventional sessions separate. Actually, you can mix them once you learn how, but, in my opinion, it's dangerous, tedious and, well, stupid.

Anyway: get new "Legacy Lite" system; get new Legacy Powermaster. Follow instructions

for installation and play with it. The light will come on as to how this fits together. You'll smack your forehead and say "Oh! I get it!". No substitute for being there. 

Ok I get it now.  So the way I have this figured a Cab1L set and a powermaster is about $300.

The full Legacy setup is $349.  Plus I would need a Powermaster?  Would I also need a powermaster bridge?

Once we resolve this then I can ask about what cables to order...LOL

If you do not have a TMCC or Legacy system now but have a transformer, I think the best way to start is to buy:

-Lagacy Cab1L system (handheld and base)

-Legacy Power Master (or TMCC Powermaster with the powermaster bridge)

if you have a conventional transformer then you will need the TPC cable set to connect the transformer to the Powermaster.  If you have a Powerhouse transformer, you do not need the cable set.

Since you do not have any Legacy engines, you could get by cheaper by  buying an older TMCC system (Cab1 and base) and an older TMCC Powermaster.  Transformer issues are the same.  However, should you buy a Legacy engine in the future, the TMCC Cab1 will not operate some of the Legacy only features of the engine.

You can get a #990 Legacy Command Set at forum sponsor, Mario's Trains, for $299 plus free shipping.  You won't need a PowerMaster bridge or any extra cables (just wire to connect the command base and PowerMaster to the track). 

So I need a 990 and a Powermater...that's it?  Seems I am misinterpreting stuff as I thought you needed that Molex cable.

It depends on what transformer you have how you wire it up.  For the Legacy Powermaster you'll need a cable to connect the transformer.  The PowerMaster is made to connect directly to the PH180 brick which has the mating Molex connector.  If you use a different transformer, you need a cable, or you can make one for a couple bucks.

TurtleLinez,

   I run both Legacy and DCS, with the Legacy 990 Base connected to the DCS TIU out Black terminals along with the Legacy base connected directly to the the opposite outside rail from the TIU channels.  With the DCS & Legacy running together you can run all the different trains using either the DCS had held remote control, or the Legacy Cab2.  The great thing is if you are using FasTrack, you also control 99 of your wireless Command Control FT switches right from your Cab2 remote control.  Way cool stuff.

PCRR/Dave

I also have the same set-up. However, since the original poster inquired about "conventional locomotives" also, with the combined DCS & Legacy/TMCC the conventional models can NOT be operated at the same time.

I have a 1950's Lionel ZW.  Which I plan to use with the above.  Not sure if I need a cable or what for Legacy 990 unit.

I do not want to run Conventional and TMCC at the same time.  I figure I would have to switch from command to conventional somehow.

Trying to figure out if I need a special cable for the powermaster with the Legacy 990 system.

No cable for the 990, all it needs is one wire to the outside rails and it's "installed".  The cable would be for the PowerMaster to it's Molex connector.  The transformer voltage must run through the PowerMaster to control the track voltage.

Based on the replies here I think DCS is out.  Legacy or the Cab 1L would be my next choice.  Seems Legacy is only about $100 more.

Ok so...Legacy 990 set, Powermaster (for conventional) and Powermaster cable?  Then I am good to go?

If so how would you switch between Conventional and TMCC?  Just wire a simple switch to kill the Powermaster when it is not needed?

The PowerMaster has a conventional/command switch on the side.

So I am guessing flipping it to command just turns it off in essence?

RA,

Flipping it to command sets it at 18 volts (or whatever is coming in from the transformer.  I quickly did a diagram that may help (or just confuse things more).  The CB and TVSs are not needed, but do provide added protection.  Click on the picture to get a better view.

thank you for the picture.  It is all clear now.  I am filing it in the Train doc area.  You should sell this to Lionel :-)

CapPilot,

 I am big on the TVS too.  Only thing is it is hard to test them.  As in when are they bad?

RA,

Thanks.  EXCEPT, the drawing should have shown the one wire from the Cab2 going to the U post, not the A post.  Also, this set up is the same for the CAb1L.  Just replace the Cab2 with the 1L and you are good.

Here is the corrected one you can file.

John:

I already have TMCC and I can run my PS (“PS-1") loco with my TMCC CAB-1 hand-held controlling the voltage to the track through an older Powermaster in conventional mode, but it runs without any sounds. 

If I understand your post above, I can buy a Legacy Powermaster and I will then be able to get the sounds when running a PS-1 loco in TMCC?  I’m using post-war ZW’s for power if that matters.

Bill

Wow I knew that but you slipped that by me.  Thanks again I will file this.

We should wait for John to answer but... I am pretty sure a buddy of mine once had the original cab 1 system and an original powermaster.  He had sounds on PS1 locomotives.  I am 98% sure.

Thanks but when I address the track and start to add voltage I do get sounds but they drop out at about 6 volts.  After that the only sound I hear is the smoke fan.  So I run it purely conventional directly from the ZW, instead.  Same thing happens with my PS-1 Railking PCC.

Bill

Seems to me this powermaster cable is just a Molex connector, wire, and an inline fuseholder.  Anyone ever roll their own?  I guess all I would need is a Digikey part number for the Molex, fuse holder and wire gauge size.  Would also need the fuse size.  I bet it could be made for $10

Perhaps even a fast acting breaker could be used instead of the fuse? 

It sure seems like a simple subject can get very complicated fast.

Non command engines, old lionel, Williams, RMT, and PS-1 are controlled via track voltage and bell and whistle signals.  Typically run around 10V if DC motors and 12-13 if AC motors.

Command engine are controlled by the command signals and use constant Voltage on the track of about 18V.

So you can see mixing the two has issues, but it can be done.  Command engine will run on lower voltage in the range of 12-14V.

If you want to control a Lionel engine you need a Lionel command set, for MTH you need DCS.

To control conventional engines "remotely".  You need a device the controls track voltage via a remote.  Lionel uses Power Masters, TPC, or newer ZW-C and L transformers.

MTH uses the TIU, which is the same device the controls command engines.

So if you went with a DCS system you can control 4 loops of track.  Two would be command and the other 2 could be conventional or command.  You would have a system to run MTH Command engines, and conventional engines, and with the addition of a CAB-1L base with cable.  Run and Lionel Command engine.

You can either use your transformers or bricks to power the 4 channels of the TIU.

Or you go Lionel with a CAB-1L or Legacy system, and at least one power master for your conventional engines.  IF you add more loops you need more power masters with transformer or brick.  These precludes operating MTH in Command mode.  Just conventional.

Use of Power Master is easy and you don't even have to bother with switch.  Address it and raise voltage to what you want.

Much of how you go is based on engine systems you prefer and size and growth of layout.   G

Hot Water,

    You can run all the different kinds of trains at the same time, even on the same track if you know what you are doing, via DCS you can run Conventional engines & P2/P3 engines at the same time, either on the same track or on different tracks, you can also run Legacy engines in either Conventional or Legacy remote control with the DCS hand held remote.

GGG gives the correct control info in his post, if you have the DCS and Legacy you do not really need the Powermaster unless you want to run conventional engines thru the Legacy Cab2, DCS can control all the different conventional engines via it's hand held remote control, with no need for a Lionel Powermaster.  This is one of the reasons why I run both DCS & Legacy now.  Set up correctly it controls all different kinds of trains at the same time.

PCRR/Dave

If you look at the Legacy PowerMaster, you'll see that it offers many of the features of PS/1 and PS2-3 locomotives in conventional mode through macro operations.

Guns,

   You are absolutely correct and if you are not running DCS & Legacy together then definitely there is a requirement for the Powermaster, if you plan on running older Conventional Engines or in the conventional mode with Legacy or TMCC or MTH engines, using the Legacy Cab2 remote control, which is super cool!

PCRR/Dave

Who's Gus?

John:

Thanks and just to make sure I am interpreting your response correctly, if I replace my older PM-1 PowerMasters with LEGACY PowerMasters, then I can run a PS-1 locomotive or PS-1 trolley and enable their PFA and other sounds using my existing TMCC CAB-1 and TMCC Command Base WITHOUT upgrading to a Full Legacy system or a CAB-2.  Is that correct?

Bill

In order to use those commands, all you need it the old TMCC system, and of course the newer CAB1L/BASE1L or Legacy will work as well.

Guns,

   Corrected the typo Gus, and you are also correct about the TMCC Cab1L being required, of course if he also has DCS it will work that way also.  Remember however with his street Car being P1, it's like running in complete conventional, with the addition of some sound. I do not know if he will be able to fully program the stops or not.  I do believe it is a manual control situation, never owned a P1 Street Car myself.

PCRR/Dave

You can use an old CAB1/BASE1 or the newer CAB1L/BASE1L, either will work fine with the Legacy PowerMaster.

John:

Thank you for clarifying that.  So I will look for LEGACY PowerMasters at York to replace my PM-1 PowerMasters and then I will be able to run my Railking PS-1 Pennsy Torpedo and get the PFA sounds and the bell, whistle and uncoupling function using my CAB-1 and TMCC Command Base which I can’t do with my PM-1’s.

Bill

 Any idea if this formula will work with the ZW-L I'm contemplating Buying? 

The ZW-L was supposed to offer those options as well, though I don't see it in the manual.  I know it was discussed some time back.  I'm not sure if the capability is actually included, don't have one to test.