Vanderbilt Tender?

I'm planning on building a Vanderbilt tender, one that Seaboard used behind their 2-8-2 Q-3 Mikados.

Other than a couple of blurry and small photos, I have nothing much to go by other than a dimensional drawing in the Seaboard book done by Richard Prince. The dimensions are fine, but the drawing isn't scale and really doesn't look much like the tender in question.

I did find this link:

VANDERBILT TENDER

This tender is very close to the SAL tender.

While the water tank and coal bunker are fairly easy to model, almost nothing can be found on what the front of the tender or the underframe looked like. The link I posted does have a photo of the front end, but it's missing parts and I'm not sure what I'm even looking at or what purpose some of the things I can identify are for.

I'd really like to get the underframe as close as possible. If someone has info they'd like to share I'd be grateful.

MODELING SOUTHEAST VIRGINIA

Having A Blast Running BPRC

Original Post
The iunderframe of a Vanderbilt tender is fairly staight forward, being much like that of a tank car with a heavy centersill. However the front end sill is heavier that the rear end sill, as it containing the drawbar to the loco as well as the deck for the cab floor apron.

I think I have a photo or two of a B&O Vanderbilt front end and maybe one of the tail too. Let me know by direct email if you're intersted and I could scan them for you.

Ed Bommer
Thanks Ed, will do!

I noticed on one of the photos in the link, as well as a photo of a Seaboard tender, that there appears to be a part of the underframe that comes off at an angle from the center sill and connects to the rear sill (box-like piece on the end). It looks like it attaches to the center sill where the bolster is located.

Anything you can provide will be of great help!

MODELING SOUTHEAST VIRGINIA

Having A Blast Running BPRC

Bob,

there might have been an article on building a Vandy tender a few years ago in OSN.....

A Pessimist sees a dark tunnel

An Optimist sees light at the end of the tunnel

A Realist sees a freight train

The Train engineer sees 3 idiots standing on the rails

 

Yeah, there might have been . . .

The level of detail you are looking for is probably lost, or in some museum somewhere. You probably will have to fake it, like I did. My Seaboard Mountain has the same tender, but all I wanted was to make sure it sort of looked like the photo in Trains Magazine in the 1950s.

If you loosen up a bit and do not have to have an exact copy, the 48/ft article will make tender building easy for you.
Simon,

I have a post there now (actually a post on the yahoo forum, the historical society's forum is almost dead). I need to peruse my Lines South and MM mags to see if I can find anything, thanks for reminding me!

MODELING SOUTHEAST VIRGINIA

Having A Blast Running BPRC

Simon,

Got all of those too Wink Maybe I can convince those guys to run an article on the Vanderbilt tenders.

Thing is, Seaboard use Vandy tenders on a number of engines and it looks like for each class they were just a bit different.

I keep finding better photos so maybe I'll gather enough data in the next few months to give it a go.

Here's one I just found:

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I'm really curious about the underframe.

It looks like the tank is sitting on another thickness of sheet metal that is shaped to the tank and is where the underframe beams are attached (welded or riveted). The "beams" look like channels, but I'm not sure how the bolster area is built.

I have an HO Mountain with a Vanderbilt tender, I'll pull that out and take a look at what detail they had.

MODELING SOUTHEAST VIRGINIA

Having A Blast Running BPRC

quote:
Originally posted by Bob Delbridge:
Thanks Bob.

All you guys are great! Thanks for the help so far, I hope to have something to show soon, but first I need to dig out that magazine article.


OSN

1993 December Scratch Building a Venderbuilt Tender - Part 1 Turner, Bob
1994 February Scratch Building a Vanderbuilt Tender - Part 2 Turner, Bob

If you can't find a copy, contact me directly.

A Pessimist sees a dark tunnel

An Optimist sees light at the end of the tunnel

A Realist sees a freight train

The Train engineer sees 3 idiots standing on the rails

 

quote:
Originally posted by ChipR:
Rich yoder has Vulcan trucks in stock. PSC makes leaf springs.

A little work to marry the two...

ChipR


I now pronounce you sideframes and springs - you may now mount the trucks, Wink

A Pessimist sees a dark tunnel

An Optimist sees light at the end of the tunnel

A Realist sees a freight train

The Train engineer sees 3 idiots standing on the rails

 

quote:
Good luck with those 70-ton Vulcan Leaf Spring tender trucks . . .


Interesting. That was going to be my comment, but if Rich has brought in trucks with these contours in the last year, you are surely in luck.

But I wonder - Vulcan made several different kinds.

Make a master - make it exactly what you want, but make it about 5% larger. Then we will steer you toward a foundry that may be able to help.

Another big problem will be those rivet plates that attach underframe to tank. PSC has some fairly rough ones for the SP 12,000 gal tank, but they do not look like the ones in the photo.
quote:
Originally posted by Bob Delbridge:
I'm planning on building a Vanderbilt tender, one that Seaboard used behind their 2-8-2 Q-3 Mikados.

Other than a couple of blurry and small photos, I have nothing much to go by other than a dimensional drawing in the Seaboard book done by Richard Prince. The dimensions are fine, but the drawing isn't scale and really doesn't look much like the tender in question.

I did find this link:

VANDERBILT TENDER

This tender is very close to the SAL tender.

While the water tank and coal bunker are fairly easy to model, almost nothing can be found on what the front of the tender or the underframe looked like. The link I posted does have a photo of the front end, but it's missing parts and I'm not sure what I'm even looking at or what purpose some of the things I can identify are for.

I'd really like to get the underframe as close as possible. If someone has info they'd like to share I'd be grateful.


Bob - you need to put it behind one of their M2 Mountains that had the Dekle Valve Gear.

That way it'd be unique for a couple of reasons. Wink

EdKing
A little bit pricey unless you are building a Lobaugh switcher tender. Use raw brass, and build yourself a rivet embosser. See Martin's post for dates and photos of rivet tools.

My Seaboard Mountain had Walschaerts, but I would change it in a heartbeat if I knew what was proper.
Bob,
I was going to "cheap out" and try using some of those rivet decals made by Archer, but I haven't read too many posts to get an idea if they're worth the effort.

Mike, I doubt that kit has any trucks in it and the rest of it would probably be easy/cheaper to build from scratch.

I hope to get going on this next month, right now I'm trying to gather as much data as I can and locate as many parts as I can (I think I need to get another PSC catalog, all I have is Cat #5).

MODELING SOUTHEAST VIRGINIA

Having A Blast Running BPRC

I have heard good things about the Archer rivets. If you go that route, consider a 2" bar rail and an auto freeze plug for the main part - makes life a lot easier.

Also I was just looking at my Walthers Andrews leaf spring tender trucks - they appear to be very close. I had them re-done in silicon bronze, and use them under SP Haystack tenders.

Good call on that kit. There is nothing in there that will work for your tank.

Last sentence was opinion.
quote:
Originally posted by bob2:
A little bit pricey unless you are building a Lobaugh switcher tender. Use raw brass, and build yourself a rivet embosser. See Martin's post for dates and photos of rivet tools.

My Seaboard Mountain had Walschaerts, but I would change it in a heartbeat if I knew what was proper.


bob2 - According to Richard E. Prince's SAL book, the first fifteen (200-214) were class M; they had Walschaerts. When they were delivered (the first ten from Richmond in 1914 and the last five from Schenectady in 1917) the valve gear was arranged as indirect. They were all changed to direct, but I don't know when.

Ten M1s were delivered by Schenectady in 1922 and were like the M1s except they had Baker Valve Gear.

36 M2s (235-270 - they skipped ten numbers) were delivered by Baldwin 1924-1926; they had higher drivers than the Ms and M1s and all had Baker Valve Gear.

The 267 received a valve gear invented by SAL Master Mechanic S. D. Dekle; it was also applied to ten-wheelers and Pacifics and at least one 2-10-2. It was never adopted as a Standard and was never, AFAIK, used on any other railroad. It amounted to a Southern valve gear that was turned around with the bell crank aft of the radius hanger, but it had a cast frame that the Southern didn't have; like the Southern, it required no crosshead connection with its combination lever and union link. Its application to the 267 is illustrated on page 199 of Prince's book; it also appears on B1 USRA 2-10-2 2495 on page 180.

BTW - SAL had fifteen B1 USRA 2-10-2s and they had four different types of outside valve gear: Baker, Walschaerts, Southern and Dekle. Anyone know of a class of 15 engines or fewer that can make that claim (it would probably be Baker, Walschaerts, Southern and Young, if there was such a class)?

EdKing
Seaboard seemed to make a habit out of using just about anything out there, from all the valve gear to oddball freight cars and appliances.

Sounds like they were the "Non-Standard Railroad Of The World"...just the opposite of PRR Eek

Thanks Mike for the rivet part numbers!

MODELING SOUTHEAST VIRGINIA

Having A Blast Running BPRC

Southern Pacific used Vanderbilt Tenders extensively.
Lots of examples here.
They varied quite a bit in size. The ones used on other 2-8-2s would probably be similar in size if not detail to SAL's. Bob's Stevenson's kit is for an 0-6-0 and likely smaller than what SAL used on a 2-8-2.



Pete
I really like that photo.

The article Martin speaks of is for a 12,000 gallon tank,which is one size larger than this one. Stevenson has kits for that. In another article, how to build a Harriman Pacific, this exact tender is discussed, less the doghouse.

The postwar Lobaugh Vanderbilt tender supplied with their Pacific is this one, although the oil bunker is not shaped correctly and the underframe is from the prewar 12,000 gal tank. Bob will be better off with a 2" tube and some sheet and bar brass. Total cost under $20.
I started a preliminary drawing today using the photos and the one drawing I have.

The main reason I wanted to make a drawing is because, if you look at the ones I posted, the photos and drawing don't quite match.

In the drawing the bottom of the coal bunker is lower than the walkway on the side of the water tank, in the photo it's higher.

Question, how does a tender really attach to the engine? I'm not confident of the accuracy of the drawbars on our models. What does the front end look like with a duplex stoker?

MODELING SOUTHEAST VIRGINIA

Having A Blast Running BPRC

A word of unsolicited advice: If this is your first scratchbuilt locomotive, do keep it simple. If you start obsessing over drawbars, you will never get #1 finished.

Later on you can build better models as your skills progress, but #1 should be as simple as it can be and still look like a credible model. I am up to #40, and am just now considering boiler tubes and flues on an O Scale model. My drawbars still require only one hand to connect or disconnect, and the real ones require major heavy duty activity. I have been widely criticized for making solid frames, but I am not ready for prototypical main frames yet.
Bob,
It's not my first scratchbuild, but it is my first tender in O-scale.

Unless I stumble across some old Seaboard drawings on the actual thing, I realize what I do at best will not have a load of detail on it.

But I would like to at least make it look better than a plain piece of brass or styrene.

The front end of the tender has me stumped, I was looking at the stokers to see just how they "fit" into the front of the tender, I don't plan on actually putting one in, maybe just something jutting out in front.

Looking at the photo of the front of the tender on the 1st link I posted (and other photos of tenders) I see doors. I guess there's 2 large doors for access to the coal bunker, those can be represented with thin brass or even styrene. But then there appears to be small doors on each side of the coal bunker doors, any idea what these are? Are they for access to the water tank or are they storage areas for tools, etc?

I think the biggest hurdle is getting started. Once I get going it shouldn't be that hard to at least make the tender shell.

I haven't been to any local hardware stores to look for brass tubing yet, but I did find this place online:

ONLINE METALS

A foot long piece of 2" brass is $19.42 plus shipping. 1 foot would do it, but I feel I should get 2 feet just in case. I'll check around town, maybe I can find something cheaper.

MODELING SOUTHEAST VIRGINIA

Having A Blast Running BPRC

quote:
A foot long piece of 2" brass is $19.42 plus shipping. 1 foot would do it, but I feel I should get 2 feet just in case. I'll check around town, maybe I can find something cheaper.


Got any friends that are plumbers?

A Pessimist sees a dark tunnel

An Optimist sees light at the end of the tunnel

A Realist sees a freight train

The Train engineer sees 3 idiots standing on the rails

 

quote:
Originally posted by Bob Delbridge:

A foot long piece of 2" brass is $19.42 plus shipping. 1 foot would do it, but I feel I should get 2 feet just in case. I'll check around town, maybe I can find something cheaper.


Bob, If you are going to wrap the tube with .002-003" shim stock so you can emboss rivets then any metal tube should do like copper.

Pete


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