Vanderbilt Tender?

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December 25, 2011 8:42 AM

I'm planning on building a Vanderbilt tender, one that Seaboard used behind their 2-8-2 Q-3 Mikados.

Other than a couple of blurry and small photos, I have nothing much to go by other than a dimensional drawing in the Seaboard book done by Richard Prince. The dimensions are fine, but the drawing isn't scale and really doesn't look much like the tender in question.

I did find this link:

VANDERBILT TENDER

This tender is very close to the SAL tender.

While the water tank and coal bunker are fairly easy to model, almost nothing can be found on what the front of the tender or the underframe looked like. The link I posted does have a photo of the front end, but it's missing parts and I'm not sure what I'm even looking at or what purpose some of the things I can identify are for.

I'd really like to get the underframe as close as possible. If someone has info they'd like to share I'd be grateful.
 

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December 25, 2011 10:51 AM

The iunderframe of a Vanderbilt tender is fairly staight forward, being much like that of a tank car with a heavy centersill. However the front end sill is heavier that the rear end sill, as it containing the drawbar to the loco as well as the deck for the cab floor apron.

I think I have a photo or two of a B&O Vanderbilt front end and maybe one of the tail too. Let me know by direct email if you're intersted and I could scan them for you.

Ed Bommer
 
 
 
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December 25, 2011 11:19 AM

Thanks Ed, will do!

I noticed on one of the photos in the link, as well as a photo of a Seaboard tender, that there appears to be a part of the underframe that comes off at an angle from the center sill and connects to the rear sill (box-like piece on the end). It looks like it attaches to the center sill where the bolster is located.

Anything you can provide will be of great help!
 

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December 25, 2011 11:54 AM

Bob,

there might have been an article on building a Vandy tender a few years ago in OSN.....
 

No, no, no....  You obviously have not been paying attention to what I'm about to tell you...

 
 
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December 25, 2011 3:40 PM

Martin,
Thanks! I'll take another look when I get a chance. Right now we're all pitching in getting food ready for the "gang" when they come over tonight.

Merry Christmas!
 

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December 25, 2011 10:14 PM

Yeah, there might have been . . .

The level of detail you are looking for is probably lost, or in some museum somewhere. You probably will have to fake it, like I did. My Seaboard Mountain has the same tender, but all I wanted was to make sure it sort of looked like the photo in Trains Magazine in the 1950s.

If you loosen up a bit and do not have to have an exact copy, the 48/ft article will make tender building easy for you.
 
 
 
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December 25, 2011 10:29 PM

Thanks Bob.

All you guys are great! Thanks for the help so far, I hope to have something to show soon, but first I need to dig out that magazine article.
 

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December 26, 2011 9:56 AM

Bob,

Have you contacted these folks? http://www.aclsal.org/

For the underside, you would probably want to look for equipment erection drawings. "Mainline Modeler" was a good source for drawings and plans. And of course there is always the Net.

Simon

From the ACLSAL Hist Society website: http://s-clmodeler.aclsal.org/index.htm
 
 
 
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December 26, 2011 10:02 AM

Simon,

I have a post there now (actually a post on the yahoo forum, the historical society's forum is almost dead). I need to peruse my Lines South and MM mags to see if I can find anything, thanks for reminding me!
 

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December 26, 2011 10:06 AM

Bob,

See the little addition to my original post! Good Luck!

Simon
 
 
 
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December 26, 2011 11:20 AM

Simon,

Got all of those too Wink Maybe I can convince those guys to run an article on the Vanderbilt tenders.

Thing is, Seaboard use Vandy tenders on a number of engines and it looks like for each class they were just a bit different.

I keep finding better photos so maybe I'll gather enough data in the next few months to give it a go.

Here's one I just found:

 

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December 26, 2011 11:26 AM

I'm really curious about the underframe.

It looks like the tank is sitting on another thickness of sheet metal that is shaped to the tank and is where the underframe beams are attached (welded or riveted). The "beams" look like channels, but I'm not sure how the bolster area is built.

I have an HO Mountain with a Vanderbilt tender, I'll pull that out and take a look at what detail they had.
 

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December 26, 2011 11:50 AM

Here's some dimensional data I found on the Seaboard tender:



It's a start, more coming.
 

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December 26, 2011 4:05 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Bob Delbridge:
Thanks Bob.

All you guys are great! Thanks for the help so far, I hope to have something to show soon, but first I need to dig out that magazine article.


OSN

1993 December Scratch Building a Venderbuilt Tender - Part 1 Turner, Bob
1994 February Scratch Building a Vanderbuilt Tender - Part 2 Turner, Bob

If you can't find a copy, contact me directly.
 

No, no, no....  You obviously have not been paying attention to what I'm about to tell you...

 
 
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December 26, 2011 4:42 PM

Martin, email sent. Thanks
 

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December 26, 2011 4:58 PM

Good luck with those 70-ton Vulcan Leaf Spring tender trucks . . .

EdKing
 
 
 
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December 26, 2011 5:51 PM

Ed your killing me Eek

I figured they might be something not usually found, but hopefully something will pop up. I've never made any trucks before, but I'm willing to give it a try.
 

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December 26, 2011 6:39 PM

Rich yoder has Vulcan trucks in stock. PSC makes leaf springs.

A little work to marry the two...

ChipR
 
 
 
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December 26, 2011 7:01 PM

quote:
Originally posted by ChipR:
Rich yoder has Vulcan trucks in stock. PSC makes leaf springs.

A little work to marry the two...

ChipR


I now pronounce you sideframes and springs - you may now mount the trucks, Wink
 

No, no, no....  You obviously have not been paying attention to what I'm about to tell you...

 
 
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December 26, 2011 8:19 PM

Good deal, for less than $50 I can get a pair of trucks! One problem solved.
 

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December 26, 2011 9:37 PM

quote:
Good luck with those 70-ton Vulcan Leaf Spring tender trucks . . .


Interesting. That was going to be my comment, but if Rich has brought in trucks with these contours in the last year, you are surely in luck.

But I wonder - Vulcan made several different kinds.

Make a master - make it exactly what you want, but make it about 5% larger. Then we will steer you toward a foundry that may be able to help.

Another big problem will be those rivet plates that attach underframe to tank. PSC has some fairly rough ones for the SP 12,000 gal tank, but they do not look like the ones in the photo.
 
 
 
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December 28, 2011 7:08 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Bob Delbridge:
I'm planning on building a Vanderbilt tender, one that Seaboard used behind their 2-8-2 Q-3 Mikados.

Other than a couple of blurry and small photos, I have nothing much to go by other than a dimensional drawing in the Seaboard book done by Richard Prince. The dimensions are fine, but the drawing isn't scale and really doesn't look much like the tender in question.

I did find this link:

VANDERBILT TENDER

This tender is very close to the SAL tender.

While the water tank and coal bunker are fairly easy to model, almost nothing can be found on what the front of the tender or the underframe looked like. The link I posted does have a photo of the front end, but it's missing parts and I'm not sure what I'm even looking at or what purpose some of the things I can identify are for.

I'd really like to get the underframe as close as possible. If someone has info they'd like to share I'd be grateful.


Bob - you need to put it behind one of their M2 Mountains that had the Dekle Valve Gear.

That way it'd be unique for a couple of reasons. Wink

EdKing
 
 
 
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December 28, 2011 8:17 AM

Ed,

Now you're talkin!

The HO Mountain I had wasn't exactly like the Seaboard engines, but I did move things around a bit to make them look similar. I forget which company made it, the motor was in the tender so it pushed the engine around. It seemed to work fine, but I never could get used to the idea.

Sounds like I need to learn how to use a resistance soldering unit!
 

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December 28, 2011 11:45 AM

If you are building one from scratch this might be a good source of raw materials.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/LOBAUG...&hash=item2318018c16
 

O&WMac

 
 
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December 28, 2011 2:05 PM

A little bit pricey unless you are building a Lobaugh switcher tender. Use raw brass, and build yourself a rivet embosser. See Martin's post for dates and photos of rivet tools.

My Seaboard Mountain had Walschaerts, but I would change it in a heartbeat if I knew what was proper.
 
 
 
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December 28, 2011 6:46 PM

Bob,
I was going to "cheap out" and try using some of those rivet decals made by Archer, but I haven't read too many posts to get an idea if they're worth the effort.

Mike, I doubt that kit has any trucks in it and the rest of it would probably be easy/cheaper to build from scratch.

I hope to get going on this next month, right now I'm trying to gather as much data as I can and locate as many parts as I can (I think I need to get another PSC catalog, all I have is Cat #5).
 

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December 28, 2011 8:11 PM

I've used the archer rivets. They worked great on the two tank cars I made. Infinitely easier than embossing.
 

O&WMac

 
 
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December 28, 2011 8:29 PM

Thanks Mike, I recall you posting pix of your work Big Grin

Do you recommend any item number?
 

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December 28, 2011 9:40 PM

Fyi on the rivets. Seal them on with primer, paint or flat coat as soon as they are in place and dried on. They actually have a sheet designed for O Scale Tank Cars that I used that had offset double rows.
http://www.archertransfers.com/AR88035.html
 

O&WMac

 
 
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December 28, 2011 11:04 PM

I have heard good things about the Archer rivets. If you go that route, consider a 2" bar rail and an auto freeze plug for the main part - makes life a lot easier.

Also I was just looking at my Walthers Andrews leaf spring tender trucks - they appear to be very close. I had them re-done in silicon bronze, and use them under SP Haystack tenders.

Good call on that kit. There is nothing in there that will work for your tank.

Last sentence was opinion.
 
 
 
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December 28, 2011 11:18 PM

quote:
Originally posted by bob2:
A little bit pricey unless you are building a Lobaugh switcher tender. Use raw brass, and build yourself a rivet embosser. See Martin's post for dates and photos of rivet tools.

My Seaboard Mountain had Walschaerts, but I would change it in a heartbeat if I knew what was proper.


bob2 - According to Richard E. Prince's SAL book, the first fifteen (200-214) were class M; they had Walschaerts. When they were delivered (the first ten from Richmond in 1914 and the last five from Schenectady in 1917) the valve gear was arranged as indirect. They were all changed to direct, but I don't know when.

Ten M1s were delivered by Schenectady in 1922 and were like the M1s except they had Baker Valve Gear.

36 M2s (235-270 - they skipped ten numbers) were delivered by Baldwin 1924-1926; they had higher drivers than the Ms and M1s and all had Baker Valve Gear.

The 267 received a valve gear invented by SAL Master Mechanic S. D. Dekle; it was also applied to ten-wheelers and Pacifics and at least one 2-10-2. It was never adopted as a Standard and was never, AFAIK, used on any other railroad. It amounted to a Southern valve gear that was turned around with the bell crank aft of the radius hanger, but it had a cast frame that the Southern didn't have; like the Southern, it required no crosshead connection with its combination lever and union link. Its application to the 267 is illustrated on page 199 of Prince's book; it also appears on B1 USRA 2-10-2 2495 on page 180.

BTW - SAL had fifteen B1 USRA 2-10-2s and they had four different types of outside valve gear: Baker, Walschaerts, Southern and Dekle. Anyone know of a class of 15 engines or fewer that can make that claim (it would probably be Baker, Walschaerts, Southern and Young, if there was such a class)?

EdKing
 
 
 
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December 29, 2011 7:13 AM

Seaboard seemed to make a habit out of using just about anything out there, from all the valve gear to oddball freight cars and appliances.

Sounds like they were the "Non-Standard Railroad Of The World"...just the opposite of PRR Eek

Thanks Mike for the rivet part numbers!
 

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December 29, 2011 2:35 PM

Bob,
Bob Stevenson has a brass Vandy kit available.
www.stevensonpreservationlines.com
Give him a shout,
Regards, Ben Brown
 
 
 
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December 29, 2011 2:56 PM

Southern Pacific used Vanderbilt Tenders extensively.
Lots of examples here.
They varied quite a bit in size. The ones used on other 2-8-2s would probably be similar in size if not detail to SAL's. Bob's Stevenson's kit is for an 0-6-0 and likely smaller than what SAL used on a 2-8-2.



Pete
 
 
 
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December 29, 2011 3:23 PM

I really like that photo.

The article Martin speaks of is for a 12,000 gallon tank,which is one size larger than this one. Stevenson has kits for that. In another article, how to build a Harriman Pacific, this exact tender is discussed, less the doghouse.

The postwar Lobaugh Vanderbilt tender supplied with their Pacific is this one, although the oil bunker is not shaped correctly and the underframe is from the prewar 12,000 gal tank. Bob will be better off with a 2" tube and some sheet and bar brass. Total cost under $20.
 
 
 
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December 29, 2011 5:10 PM

I started a preliminary drawing today using the photos and the one drawing I have.

The main reason I wanted to make a drawing is because, if you look at the ones I posted, the photos and drawing don't quite match.

In the drawing the bottom of the coal bunker is lower than the walkway on the side of the water tank, in the photo it's higher.

Question, how does a tender really attach to the engine? I'm not confident of the accuracy of the drawbars on our models. What does the front end look like with a duplex stoker?
 

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December 29, 2011 5:26 PM

Here's a drawing of a duple stoker I found online:



Now what I have seen in the photos of the front of the tender is starting to make sense.
 

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December 29, 2011 8:08 PM

A word of unsolicited advice: If this is your first scratchbuilt locomotive, do keep it simple. If you start obsessing over drawbars, you will never get #1 finished.

Later on you can build better models as your skills progress, but #1 should be as simple as it can be and still look like a credible model. I am up to #40, and am just now considering boiler tubes and flues on an O Scale model. My drawbars still require only one hand to connect or disconnect, and the real ones require major heavy duty activity. I have been widely criticized for making solid frames, but I am not ready for prototypical main frames yet.
 
 
 
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December 29, 2011 9:19 PM

Bob,
It's not my first scratchbuild, but it is my first tender in O-scale.

Unless I stumble across some old Seaboard drawings on the actual thing, I realize what I do at best will not have a load of detail on it.

But I would like to at least make it look better than a plain piece of brass or styrene.

The front end of the tender has me stumped, I was looking at the stokers to see just how they "fit" into the front of the tender, I don't plan on actually putting one in, maybe just something jutting out in front.

Looking at the photo of the front of the tender on the 1st link I posted (and other photos of tenders) I see doors. I guess there's 2 large doors for access to the coal bunker, those can be represented with thin brass or even styrene. But then there appears to be small doors on each side of the coal bunker doors, any idea what these are? Are they for access to the water tank or are they storage areas for tools, etc?

I think the biggest hurdle is getting started. Once I get going it shouldn't be that hard to at least make the tender shell.

I haven't been to any local hardware stores to look for brass tubing yet, but I did find this place online:

ONLINE METALS

A foot long piece of 2" brass is $19.42 plus shipping. 1 foot would do it, but I feel I should get 2 feet just in case. I'll check around town, maybe I can find something cheaper.
 

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December 30, 2011 9:10 AM

quote:
A foot long piece of 2" brass is $19.42 plus shipping. 1 foot would do it, but I feel I should get 2 feet just in case. I'll check around town, maybe I can find something cheaper.


Got any friends that are plumbers?
 

No, no, no....  You obviously have not been paying attention to what I'm about to tell you...

 
 
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