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A lot of cool things in the new Lionel Catalog, but I can't decide what I want, I am sort of happy they brought back a SP/UP Consolidation but yet I  won't be able to buy that and replace my older unit. The Heislers came back, so that might be an interesting sale. But why would someone by 3 versions of 844/8444? I think the selection of the UP FEF-3s are great, nice Catalog, the last couple ones were questionable in my opinion. Good job for Lionel. So what do you hope to buy from the new catalog?

Last edited by SDIV Tim
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Originally Posted by Tim Lewis:

A lot of cool things in the new Lionel Catalog, but I can't decide what I want, I am sort of happy they brought back a SP/UP Consolidation but yet I  won't be able to buy that and replace my older unit. The Heislers came back, so that might be an interesting sale. But why would someone by 3 versions of 844/8444? I think the selection of the UP FEF-3s are great, nice Catalog, the last couple ones were questionable in my opinion. Good job for Lionel. So what do you hope to buy from the new catalog?

Me personally I'm going to get the new Lionel Norfolk Southern SD60E's. I'm getting the Veterans unit number 6920 and I'll also be getting the First Responders unit number 911. 
As for the 844. The reason they are offering so many different versions is because the 844/8444 has been in several different variations of the UP paint scheme depending on the year it was running. 
In the 60's and 70's it was black with white trim on the walkways and had white wall tires.

Then in the late 70's and early 80's it was painted in the UP greyhound paint scheme with the yellow strips (some greyhounds were white and others were yellow). Then when the 90's rolled around (and when it was renumbered back to the 844) it got a solid black scheme with white UP letters on the tender. A scheme which it's in to this day. 
The way Lionel is doing them will allow for someone who wants to model any time period the engine was in. 

Originally Posted by Stirling R. Callahan:
Originally Posted by Tim Lewis:

A lot of cool things in the new Lionel Catalog, but I can't decide what I want, I am sort of happy they brought back a SP/UP Consolidation but yet I  won't be able to buy that and replace my older unit. The Heislers came back, so that might be an interesting sale. But why would someone by 3 versions of 844/8444? I think the selection of the UP FEF-3s are great, nice Catalog, the last couple ones were questionable in my opinion. Good job for Lionel. So what do you hope to buy from the new catalog?

Me personally I'm going to get the new Lionel Norfolk Southern SD60E's. I'm getting the Veterans unit number 6920 and I'll also be getting the First Responders unit number 911. 
As for the 844. The reason they are offering so many different versions is because the 844/8444 has been in several different variations of the UP paint scheme depending on the year it was running. 
In the 60's and 70's it was black with white trim on the walkways and had white wall tires.

Then in the late 70's and early 80's it was painted in the UP greyhound paint scheme with the yellow strips (some greyhounds were white and others were yellow). Then when the 90's rolled around (and when it was renumbered back to the 844) it got a solid black scheme with white UP letters on the tender.

 

NOT "white letters on the tender". UP always used what they referred to as "bright aluminum" lettering & numerals, which looks sort of like silver. Should also have the "bright aluminum" roller bearing journal box covers too.
 

A scheme which it's in to this day. 
The way Lionel is doing them will allow for someone who wants to model any time period the engine was in. 

 

Last edited by Hot Water

I'm wondering if the SD60Es will be a new tooling all together for Lionel?

 

I'll probably order the three NS units, have a feeling they will be quite desirable.  

 

Would love to get a black FEF, I have the grey version from a while back, but will probably hold off to see what the next VL locomotive is....price is steep on the FEF...but I suppose in-line with their recent pricing. 

 

Best,

Michael

Originally Posted by F30MSport:

...

Would love to get a black FEF, ...price is steep on the FEF...but I suppose in-line with their recent pricing. 

...

That's what's so puzzling about the FEF's pricing.  It's WAY out of line with recent pricing. I guess the party line from Lionel will be that the Chinese guy doing their whistle-steam retrofits held out for a huge raise.    Some huge raise indeed.  With a $1700 MSRP, the typical street-price will likely be $1400-$1425.  We just paid that price a couple of months ago for an articulated Y6b for gosh sakes!  

 

More "in-line" pricing for the FEF-3 would have been $1500 MSRP with street-pricing closer to $1125-$1150, like the recent Pennsy M1A.  Heck, the entire M1A freight set with 4 GLa hoppers and a caboose can be had for $1300.  So why would we spend $1400+ for what amounts to a basic, non-articulated steam locomotive?    There's an extra $250+ that just evaporated into not-so-thin air.   

 

No thanks... I think I'll pass on that one.

 

David

Last edited by Rocky Mountaineer

It is no surprise to me that the #844's will have an MSRP of $1700+ . . . .

If ALL of the BTO steamers have sold out, Lionel has every reason to believe these will, too. I agree with that logic. Unfortunately, Lionel needs the price increases to accurately determine where the market "top" is. Keeping the prices in line with locomotives that are already "selling out" does not reveal to Lionel where the mountain will crest. In economic terms, the marginal revenue of the items will eventually reveal the "topping out" price and the ideal number of locomotives to produce. Of course, since they are all BTO, Lionel has few worries about production numbers. Their concern is best profit level.

 

Will I buy a black UP FEF with whistle steam?

 

Sigh . . . . . 

Can you smell the creosote in the ties  ?

 

Originally Posted by Scrapiron Scher:

       

It is no surprise to me that the #844's will have an MSRP of $1700+ . . . .

If ALL of the BTO steamers have sold out, Lionel has every reason to believe these will, too. I agree with that logic. Unfortunately, Lionel needs the price increases to accurately determine where the market "top" is. Keeping the prices in line with locomotives that are already "selling out" does not reveal to Lionel where the mountain will crest. In economic terms, the marginal revenue of the items will eventually reveal the "topping out" price and the ideal number of locomotives to produce. Of course, since they are all BTO, Lionel has few worries about production numbers. Their concern is best profit level.

 

Will I buy a black UP FEF with whistle steam?

 

Sigh . . . . . 

Can you smell the creosote in the ties  ?

 


       




No way I am paying 1500ish on street price on the Union Pacific efe .
Originally Posted by Scrapiron Scher:

...

If ALL of the BTO steamers have sold out, Lionel has every reason to believe these will, too. ...

Eliot, your point is well-taken.  HOWEVER, by design -- and from Lionel's perspective -- all the BTO items are sell-outs, as Lionel no longer holds any inventory, per se. 

 

I suppose the real question is, "Are these BTO products selling out at dealers who ordered "extra's" beyond their real customer pre-orders?".  At this point, all we have to go on are a couple of catalogs... but I have noticed more "SOLD OUT" banners on certain SKU's when Charlie Ro publishes his email featuring new products received from Lionel.  So some SKU's are sold-out already when stuff hits the streets, and other SKU's may sell out soon thereafter.  That's the real trend worth observing.

 

All that notwithstanding, I think Lionel is approaching the point at which some folks are gonna say, "No thanks."  Will some folks order the FEF-3 at a $1425+ street-price?  Absolutely, yes.  No question about it.  The better question would be, "Can Lionel maximize its profits for a given production run, when they start pushing the price envelope beyond what's "reasonable"?"   It's not win-win scenario if the answer is "no".

 

Then again... we've heard rumors that "300" is the magic, minimum production run number.  So perhaps Lionel is more than happy if they get 300 dealer orders on a given model class.  Their costs are covered, and they make some profit too.  All I'm saying is... are they leaving (profit) money on the table, when they could have sold 500 or 750 if they weren't so greedy on the price-point?  And only they know the answer to that question.

 

 

David

 

Last edited by Rocky Mountaineer

On some items, the "no thanks" price has been reached. $649 for a diesel? Ok, for all new tooling and roadname specific details, maybe. Thats basically 3rd rail's price, so if they're going to offer road specific details and a legacy system, then maybe, since its basically on par with what 3rd rail offers you. BUT, it still makes you think twice about how badly you gotta have it, and whether you need more than one. 

Then you have the ES44s... they were $529 and $440 on the street, then they were $529 and $395 on the street, and now they're $649 for 550ish on the street (in 15V1). FOR WHAT? It sure made me balk at it, considering I bought the heritage units for 440 a piece. Whats my added value for the same model a year later at $110 more on the street? Zero.

Most of the diesels have hit their limit and jumped the shark. They're 30% more than the comparable MTH diesel for really nothing additional (unless you must have it in an orange box and run it with a knob rather than a thumbwheel). We havent seen any of these new SD40s with all the special details, so no one can say yet whether they're worth it. 

I could spring for an SD60E, but only if I see a preproduction model at York and its actually all new like they say. The rendering in the catalog already has differences from the real thing. BTO doesnt work if the catalog disagrees from the final product. We bash Atlas all the time about taking too long... they've been waiting to put out the final info on the maxi 3s until they had an actual shot model to show. That's how to do BTO.... Here it is, do you want one?

 

Last edited by Boilermaker1

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