I've passed this set up a couple times in past train shows but really looking to get one now. My question is what was pulled behind them? I'm guessing passenger cars but I don't see any matching sets out there and clueless as to what road name it would have been.
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Sparky74 posted:I've passed this set up a couple times in past train shows but really looking to get one now. My question is what was pulled behind them? I'm guessing passenger cars but I don't see any matching sets out there and clueless as to what road name it would have been.
This was the EMD demonstrator. There would be NO matching sets of prototypical passenger cars painted for the Electro-Motive Division of General Motors Corporation. The car behind the 952 in the photo is the EMD Engineering Test Car, which nobody has made any models of, to my knowledge. Also, that photo was taken by the EMD Company Photographer, just outside of the Engineering Department Test Building, at the McCook plant.
If the E-8 was wearing a demonstrator paint job, more than likely they would have loaned it to a particular road and they would have pulled their own cars, like UP or ATSF behind them. GM did make a special Train of Tomorrow in the 30's that had a similar locomotive in a paint scheme that resembles this and all of the cars matched the locomotive paint job. The really important, scientific thing about this engine is to pull whatever you want and have fun doing it.
What cars did E8's pull? Passenger cars. I'm not being a wise guy . . . that's the real answer.
The locomotives were designed for passenger service, not dual service, and so they were almost always at the head of a passenger train. Premier trains like the Broadway Limited, Twentieth Century Limited, Broadway Limited, Twentieth Century Limited, City of Los Angeles, Crescent Limited, and Panama Limited were often pulled by E8's. Maids of all work, like mail trains and secondary passenger trains like Burlington's Hawkeye, often had them at the head end of a string of heavyweight cars.
They were not suitable for drag freight service. However, Erie-Lackawanna and Rock Island did use them for a few years on flat territory with moderate tonnage freight trains, after their passenger trains were terminated, only because the units were still roadworthy and paid for. That allowed these two railroads to wait a bit longer before taking delivery of new road diesels.
E8's did not pull trains on Northern Pacific, Western Pacific, or Denver& Rio Grande Western. They used F and FP units on their passenger trains (and 6 Alcos on D&RGW). Ditto with Santa Fe transcontinental trains and Great Northern (GN had a few E7's, no E8's).
Do not forget mail and express cars. These could also include express boxcars and flatcars to carry M&E trailers and containers. However, All E units were built for passenger train
The specific demonstrators would have probably toured the country on various railroads to demonstrate the product. So they would do a few runs or so in service on the host road. They would probably be assigned to a regular run and pull the cars used on the regular run.
So they would pull passenger cars on whatever host road they were visiting at the time. That would mean they might be pulling any RRs passenger cars for a few weeks and then move on.
I've seen photos of E-8's in Rock Island paint in there last days pulling freight......but the norm is passenger cars...yes, The good part is a GM DEMO E-8 can pull anything!!
I have photos of Santa Fe PAs pulling freight
IMO, the OP was asking specifically about the types of cars pulled by EMD Demonstrator E8's (and only the Demonstrators). As EMD travelled around the USA from one railroad to another, it only makes sense that they pulled at least one car to carry a small staff touting the benefits of their new diesel.
TM Terry posted:IMO, the OP was asking specifically about the types of cars pulled by EMD Demonstrator E8's (and only the Demonstrators). As EMD travelled around the USA from one railroad to another, it only makes sense that they pulled at least one car to carry a small staff touting the benefits of their new diesel.
You're right. I should have read the text more carefully and not answered the question in the Subject of the thread.
Okay . . . EMD 952 was the first E8, built in 1949, and later sold to Rock Island. It was the only E8 in existence for several weeks (perhaps 2 or 3 months), and, seeing it coupled to the EMD Test Car in the photo indicates that it was being tested in service by EMD, and the data developed was used to make any production changes warranted on E8's built thereafter. As a single unit, it would have had to pull passenger trains of not more than ten cars, probably secondary trains. Or, it could have been m-ued in a consist with other E-units of a railroad, though I have never seen any photos of such a thing. It could have happened, though.
Personally, I would love to see the records of this unit's testing and promotional miles, where it ran, what trains, etc.
But you were no doubt referring to MTH A-B-A E8's produced in the past. There never really was a 3-unit demonstrator in this paint scheme, but you can run it on any kind of passenger train and tell experts who want to "correct" you that (1.) it's your train, (2.) it looks good, and (3.) you like it. 
And an A-B-A consist would indeed look good.
The B unit was available from Weaver also, Pennsy did not have the B's
Top shelf.
The GM Train of Tomorrow was not built in the 1930s, but rather the late 1940s. Here is a photo I took of it at the Chicago Railroad Fair in 1949. Enjoy.
Lew Schneider
Tinplate Tom posted:GM did make a special Train of Tomorrow in the 30's that had a similar locomotive in a paint scheme that resembles this and all of the cars matched the locomotive paint job.
While off topic, here is some more info on the ToT since it was mentioned. It ran from May 1947 through 1949 and was pulled by an E7A.
I do like the E8 Demonstrator's paint scheme, but I cannot find anything that says the Pennsy used it. Also, its a little past my layout's era.
Big thanks to everyone for the abundance of information and history provided. This place never ceases to amaze me in how many people have so much information and knowledge to share is so many varied areas.
While certainly past the era of this demonstrator paint scheme, PRR and later PC used E8s and E7s in TOFC service. The history of E units in freight service is generally a sad one. All of Burlington's beautiful stainless E5's spent their final days of service pulling coal drags on the C&S out of Pueblo, CO. RI used them as they were a dying road in the 70's based on the consolidation around them so any equipment that could run got the call. PC is better left alone with the atrocities they committed against motive power, both passenger and freight. EL's had larger wheels and were used pull fast freight, but it wasn't ideal.
The demo version would look good pulling any 50's streamlined passenger train. No one can claim it's not prototypical!
The MTH set looks great pulling any of the named passenger cars, as others have noted, and as they would have done in real time for limited periods.
Good luck, and post photos when it's on your layout.
CincinnatiWestern posted:The MTH set looks great pulling any of the named passenger cars, as others have noted, and as they would have done in real time for limited periods.
Except EMD made ONLY one E8A demonstrator, and NOT a "set".
Hot Water posted:CincinnatiWestern posted:The MTH set looks great pulling any of the named passenger cars, as others have noted, and as they would have done in real time for limited periods.
Except EMD made ONLY one E8A demonstrator, and NOT a "set".
That makes it simple: MU the Demonstrator to a couple of EMD F3's pulling your favorite road's streamlines and call it a day. (F7's would be a stretch though)
TM Terry posted:Hot Water posted:CincinnatiWestern posted:The MTH set looks great pulling any of the named passenger cars, as others have noted, and as they would have done in real time for limited periods.
Except EMD made ONLY one E8A demonstrator, and NOT a "set".
That makes it simple: MU the Demonstrator to couple EMD F3's pulling your favorite road's streamlines and call it a day.
Nope! Except for the Santa Fe "F Units", most "F Units" were NOT geared for passenger service, thus they would have been limited to about 65 MPH, which would NOT have been acceptable for maintaining passenger train schedules.
A better pairing for the demonstrator E8 would likely be some E7s or earlier as EMD used their demonstrators to sell new product.
On the fantasy side of things, MTH did make an entire set of locomotives and cars in the demonstrator scheme for the E8 if I recall. Not my thing, but someone at my club has one I think.
Hot Water posted:TM Terry posted:Hot Water posted:CincinnatiWestern posted:The MTH set looks great pulling any of the named passenger cars, as others have noted, and as they would have done in real time for limited periods.
Except EMD made ONLY one E8A demonstrator, and NOT a "set".
That makes it simple: MU the Demonstrator to couple EMD F3's pulling your favorite road's streamlines and call it a day.
Nope! Except for the Santa Fe "F Units", most "F Units" were NOT geared for passenger service, thus they would have been limited to about 65 MPH, which would NOT have been acceptable for maintaining passenger train schedules.
Your comment begs the question: "Can locomotives with different gearing be MU'd together and work effectively?" (sorry for the side bar) Clearly a lower geared diesel would not be capable of demonstrating the top speed of a taller geared diesel when Mu'd. (no pun intended)
TM Terry posted:Your comment begs the question: "Can locomotives with different gearing be MU'd together and work effectively?" (sorry for the side bar) Clearly a lower geared diesel would not be capable of demonstrating the top speed of a taller geared diesel when Mu'd. (no pun intended)
Yes, of course, BUT then the entire consist is limited to the maximum speed of the lowest geared unit in the MU consist. If the goal is to operate at speeds to, say 90 MPH, then it would be silly to MU the "passenger unit" with a 65 MPH Max freight unit. On the reverse, do NOT MU a "passenger unit" with high speed gearing and a minimum continuous speed of about 20 MPH, with a "freight unit" having a minimum continuous speed of about 10 MPH, otherwise the main generators in the "passenger unit" will be destroyed, when the speed drags down to about 11 MPH.
Adding to GG1 4877 above, MTH's 1999, Vol 3 catalog, listed the following;
EMD Demonstrator E8s ABA #20-2206-1,
Matching 5 car Passenger set #20-6534,
Matching 2 car Sleeper/Diner set #20-6634,
And in 2000, Vol 1 catalog,
Matching Vista Dome car #20-6734.
It makes for a beautiful passenger train set!
Based on photos I've seen the E8's pulled all combinations of freight during their time. Also I believe they were originally designed to pull freight.
Scott T Johnson posted:Based on photos I've seen the E8's pulled all combinations of freight during their time.
Only in their later years, after passenger service in the U.S. was in serious decline.
Also I believe they were originally designed to pull freight.
No, they were NOT!
Scott T Johnson posted:Based on photos I've seen the E8's pulled all combinations of freight during their time. Also I believe they were originally designed to pull freight.
No. You didn't just say that, did you? Roads that used E-units for freight had to re-gear them for freight.
But it is your railroad. You can pull anything you desire.
TM Terry posted:Scott T Johnson posted:Based on photos I've seen the E8's pulled all combinations of freight during their time. Also I believe they were originally designed to pull freight.
No. You didn't just say that, did you? Roads that used E-units for freight had to re-gear them for freight.
Not in all cases (re-gearing them for freight that is). Quite a few roads simply assigned their "E Units" to non-drag service freights, where the would NOT get down too slow and burn up the main generators.
But it is your railroad. You can pull anything you desire.
All E-units still only had 4 traction motors. The 6 wheel truck was designed for higher speeds and better riding qualities. An E8-A has about 9000lbs less tractive effort than an F7-A or GP9.
Also, don't confuse express cars and mail trains with freight trains. Some trains had many head end cars and it may have looked like a freight train at first.
Outside of the C&S downgrading E5's for freight service in their final days:
the Burlington Northern also tried regeared E7's in freight service. The experiment was less than successful.
Rusty
Hot Water posted:TM Terry posted:Scott T Johnson posted:Based on photos I've seen the E8's pulled all combinations of freight during their time. Also I believe they were originally designed to pull freight.
No. You didn't just say that, did you? Roads that used E-units for freight had to re-gear them for freight.
Not in all cases (re-gearing them for freight that is). Quite a few roads simply assigned their "E Units" to non-drag service freights, where the would NOT get down too slow and burn up the main generators.
But it is your railroad. You can pull anything you desire.
Ok, my bad. Could I be thinking of another covered-wagon style engine that was more freight compatible?
S
Scott T Johnson posted:Hot Water posted:TM Terry posted:Scott T Johnson posted:Based on photos I've seen the E8's pulled all combinations of freight during their time. Also I believe they were originally designed to pull freight.
No. You didn't just say that, did you? Roads that used E-units for freight had to re-gear them for freight.
Not in all cases (re-gearing them for freight that is). Quite a few roads simply assigned their "E Units" to non-drag service freights, where the would NOT get down too slow and burn up the main generators.
But it is your railroad. You can pull anything you desire.
Ok, my bad. Could I be thinking of another covered-wagon style engine that was more freight compatible?
S
That would be the "F" series of Freight units, i.e. FT, F2, F3, F5, F7, and lastly F9. The "FP" series of "covered wagons" were also designed for passenger service, i.e. FP7, FP9, and the FL9.
Frank E. Crawford posted:Adding to GG1 4877 above, MTH's 1999, Vol 3 catalog, listed the following;
EMD Demonstrator E8s ABA #20-2206-1,
Matching 5 car Passenger set #20-6534,
Matching 2 car Sleeper/Diner set #20-6634,
And in 2000, Vol 1 catalog,
Matching Vista Dome car #20-6734.
It makes for a beautiful passenger train set!
There was a member of the Independent Hi-Railers Midwest Division that had the whole MTH set A-B-A and all the passenger cars. It was indeed a very handsome fantasy train.
my 2 cents...........I lived in Naperville, Ill. and the CB & Q used bi-level passenger cars. never saw any E8's pulling freight. loved the occasional ride either into Chi town or Aurora (pre Waynes' World days) riding in the bi-level car(s).
Most work mornings from 1975 through 1984 I boarded a BN center track express at Belmont. Bilevel commuter cars pushed by a green E8 to Chicago Union station. Pulled westbound in the evening. In those years I never saw a freight pulled by an E8 so it was not common to use them in freight service.
lewrail posted:The GM Train of Tomorrow was not built in the 1930s, but rather the late 1940s. Here is a photo I took of it at the Chicago Railroad Fair in 1949. Enjoy.
Lew Schneider
Lew, You took a great photo in 1949!!
Hot Water posted:CincinnatiWestern posted:The MTH set looks great pulling any of the named passenger cars, as others have noted, and as they would have done in real time for limited periods.
Except EMD made ONLY one E8A demonstrator, and NOT a "set".
But MTH did make a set, thus the comment supporting th idea that the model (TOY) train engine set the OP asked about would be best used to pull model (TOY) passenger cars.
The OP states "I have passed this set up a couple of times..." as well has posting in Hi-Rail, 027 and Traditional 3-Rail O Gauge Forum.
From those statements and the forum in which this was posted, I felt it safe to assume the OP was talking about the MTH ABA set, and commented accordingly.
Had the OP asked in the "real trains" fourm, or not mentioned "set" then perhaps I too would have assumed he was asking about the real engine made by EMD.
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