What Happened To U34ch 4176?

I videoed these wonderful beasts up until their last day of service. The #4176 by all accounts of the time was to be set aside for preservation along with #4172. Not long after I learned the #4176 was sold to an equipment dealer and subsequently sold to Mexico with the remaining  NJT U34CH fleet. I was very disappointed to say the least. 

I never understood why NJT, or NJDOT ordered such a powerful locomotive for only 4-7 car passenger trains. And the Comet coaches were lighter than standard passenger equipment. 

The shots of the "Dead Line" were the saddest parts of the video. In second place, the scene where two geeps are shoving 4178, with the engine compartment doors ajar, onto the Dead Line.

Railfan Brody posted:

I never understood why NJT, or NJDOT ordered such a powerful locomotive for only 4-7 car passenger trains. And the Comet coaches were lighter than standard passenger equipment. 

You obviously are NOT experienced with commuter service with very tight timetable schedules and close together station stops.

Hot Water posted:

Railfan Brody posted:

I never understood why NJT, or NJDOT ordered such a powerful locomotive for only 4-7 car passenger trains. And the Comet coaches were lighter than standard passenger equipment. 

You obviously are NOT experienced with commuter service with very tight timetable schedules and close together station stops.

Exactly. Get to track speed as quick as possible.

Makes sense.

In some of the night shots, the locomotives were spitting flames from the stack. Is that a normal thing?

Railfan Brody posted:

Makes sense.

In some of the night shots, the locomotives were spitting flames from the stack. Is that a normal thing?

Not unusual on GE units.

645 posted:

Had five coaches and a power pack (MP15AC in this case which provided electricity for lights/AC so it was dead weight along for the ride other than serving as a control cab for the westbound run). 

Are you referring to the Alco PA's the LIRR used as cab cars, similar to Amtrak's Cabbages?

Hot Water posted:

Railfan Brody posted:

Makes sense.

In some of the night shots, the locomotives were spitting flames from the stack. Is that a normal thing?

Not unusual on GE units.

I figured. Just like Alco smoke!

Railfan Brody posted:

645 posted:

Had five coaches and a power pack (MP15AC in this case which provided electricity for lights/AC so it was dead weight along for the ride other than serving as a control cab for the westbound run). 

Are you referring to the Alco PA's the LIRR used as cab cars, similar to Amtrak's Cabbages?

Those were NOT "Also PA's (sic)", as the Long Island never had any Alcohol PA passenger units.

My Alco terminology isn't very accurate. My apologies.

Back in the 50s, Southern Pacific used Fairbanks Morse Train Masters (H24-66 models) on commuter trains. At the time - circa 1955 - these big, 6-axle, 2,400 HP diesels were the most powerful diesels on the market!

The railroad used them precisely because they had the horsepower to accelerate a train FAST. Getting back up to speed after a station stop was critical to maintaining a tight commuter schedule.

How that could be accomplished with notoriously slow-loading GE's is beyond me, but they must have worked OK for NJ Transit!

Railfan Brody posted:

My Alco terminology isn't very accurate. My apologies.

Among other postings!

OGR Webmaster posted:

Back in the 50s, Southern Pacific used Fairbanks Morse Train Masters (H24-66 models) on commuter trains. At the time - circa 1955 - these big, 6-axle, 2,400 HP diesels were the most powerful diesels on the market!

The railroad used them precisely because they had the horsepower to accelerate a train FAST. Getting back up to speed after a station stop was critical to maintaining a tight commuter schedule.

How that could be accomplished with notoriously slow-loading GE's is beyond me, but they must have worked OK for NJ Transit!

For Mr. Brown, this would be like driving a car and waiting 5 seconds for the car to accelerate after pressing on the gas.

Lehigh Valley Railroad posted:

OGR Webmaster posted:

Back in the 50s, Southern Pacific used Fairbanks Morse Train Masters (H24-66 models) on commuter trains. At the time - circa 1955 - these big, 6-axle, 2,400 HP diesels were the most powerful diesels on the market!

The railroad used them precisely because they had the horsepower to accelerate a train FAST. Getting back up to speed after a station stop was critical to maintaining a tight commuter schedule.

How that could be accomplished with notoriously slow-loading GE's is beyond me, but they must have worked OK for NJ Transit!

For Mr. Brown, this would be like driving a car and waiting 5 seconds for the car to accelerate after pressing on the gas.

When did you drive my '97 Blazer?

I wish I still had this record album, note band "D" on side 2. This actually consisted of several separate recordings of the U34CH, on the move with train, arriving and departing a station, and then 2 trains passing.
This engine was every bit as loud as people remember, the loudest GE I've ever heard.

Borden Tunnel posted:

I wish I still had this record album, note band "D" on side 2. This actually consisted of several separate recordings of the U34CH, on the move with train, arriving and departing a station, and then 2 trains passing.
This engine was every bit as loud as people remember, the loudest GE I've ever heard.

 

 

The NJT U34CHs came through my town on the Old Erie Main Line and the Bergen County Cutoff at all hours of the day and night. I could hear them chugging miles away before they arrived or blasted through town. Awesome engines!

645 posted:

Lehigh Valley Railroad posted:

Exactly. Get to track speed as quick as possible.

I rode an off-peak Long Island Rail Road train from Jamaica to Montauk and back some years ago in the cab with permission . . . Normally such a consist would have a single GP38-2 for power but we had a pair. Made for much faster acceleration from stops / speed restrictions. Do the math - that train had eight traction motors so was two more than what a single U34CH has so the two GP38-2's probably would be pulling away bit by bit if you could have them side by side from a stop if the consists being pulled were identical.

You are correct about the results of the race, but I believe you are giving too much weight to tractive effort and not enough to horsepower.

Tractive Effort is necessary to move tonnage without slipping or stalling.  Horsepower is necessary for speed.  I'll agree that the pair of GP38-2's would probably accelerate faster than the single U34CH, but it's because they have 4,000 horsepower and the GE only has 3,400 available for traction.  Now, as to tractive effort, the GP38-2's had EMD's then-current wheel slip control, based on individual traction motor current, whereas the U34CH had GE axle alternator wheel slip which reacted if the speed of one axle increased significantly over the other axles.  The EMD wheel slip system of that era was definitely superior to GE's, as it reacted much more quickly.  And the GP38-2's would have had full field loading within seconds of advancing the throttle to Run-8 (maximum), whereas the GE's would have been regulating amperage to avoid black exhaust due to turbo lag (even though the diesel engine did not go to idle RPM's when the throttle was placed in Idle).  In commuter service, the Engineer gets the train moving and then goes either straight to Run-8 or goes to Run 4 or 5 and then to Run-8.  In any case the engine is fully wound up by the time the train is going 10 MPH (or 15 MPH with a single unit and a long train).

So. the pair of GP38-2's would have accelerated like a muscle car, while the GE would have mimicked a 1950 Dyna-Flow Buick.  Race goes to EMD.  Case closed.

OGR Webmaster posted:

Back in the 50s, Southern Pacific used Fairbanks Morse Train Masters (H24-66 models) on commuter trains. At the time - circa 1955 - these big, 6-axle, 2,400 HP diesels were the most powerful diesels on the market!

The railroad used them precisely because they had the horsepower to accelerate a train FAST. Getting back up to speed after a station stop was critical to maintaining a tight commuter schedule.

How that could be accomplished with notoriously slow-loading GE's is beyond me, but they must have worked OK for NJ Transit!

You're not kidding, Rich.  Those F-M Train Masters out-ran anything else on the roster.  Not only did they have full-field loading, but the Fairbanks-Morse opposed-piston diesel engine could rev up from Idle to Run-8 in about 3 seconds, so the generator was able to put out  all the amperage the traction motors could take.  

There were not enough of these wonderful locomotives to handle all of the Peninsula trains, and the others used mostly GP9's.  There were also a pair of SD9's in Peninsula service.  As fine an engine as the GP9 was, a pair of them at 3500 horsepower were no match for a 2400 horsepower Train Master.  And let me say that the SD9's were wonderful mountain freight engines, but acceleration and speed were not their strong points.  Of course, we have to note that the Train Masters were captive locomotives, serviced and repaired by the same shopmen at Bayshore or Lenzen Avenue (San Jose) roundhouses, and that was a part of the success of these particular Train Masters.  The shopmen knew every one of the F-M's very well.  They were used on freight on weekends, but -- once they found a home on Peninsula commuter trains -- that was where they worked Monday through Friday.

Southern Pacific was a railroad and NJT is a publicly-owned heavy rail transit agency.  SP commuter trains served some old-money high rollers, many of whom were top executives of the railroad and of other corporations headquartered in San Francisco.  The president of the Southern Pacific was quite likely to meet some of his well-heeled passengers at the Pacific Union Club, and I can guarantee that nobody involved in providing Peninsula passenger service wanted either Donald Russell or Benjamin Biaggini to hear any negative comments about service on his Peninsula commuter trains.  Both Espee Presidents had notorious tempers.  At NJ Transit, politics is a driving force, as it is on virtually all public transportation.  Hardly anybody there has any idea of how to benchmark the skills required to get the performance and results that Southern Pacific did.

and that Black Widow FM is one fine looking machine.

SP did not, at first, place the big FM's in commute service.  They were first sent to New Mexico.  For some reason, they did not work out there.  But they had steam generators, so they were sent to work in the SFO commute service.  (SP did not use the "r".)  Worked well.  No SP engine could touch them until the SDP45's, and even they had to have some sort of electrical mod.

Now CNJ did buy the same engine, and they were used in passenger service from the start.  But were they used in commuter service?

Now that engine in BW and TTG Harriman or bi-level coaches would make a great model!

Whenever I go to Boonton 3372 is just sitting in their yard. I wonder what they have planned for it. I remember watching Morristown & Erie drag it out of a siding. It was street running all the way to the M&E line.

645, I don't have any knowledge about the SDP45's in Peninsula service.  I was only familiar with them as road passenger locomotives on the Coast Daylight and the San Joaquin Daylight.  I never heard any complaints about them from Espee Engineers.  I rode behind them a couple of times, and it seemed that they were doing the job.