Why no Lionel passenger figures?

It would be a lot cheaper for Lionel to get the passenger figures wholesale in China and put them in the cars during production than it is for us to buy packs of passengers at retail and install them ourselves. 

David/Rocky Mountaineer, why to do you choose to use such pejorative phrasing as "swallow the Lionel Kool-aid" and "clamoring for more Kool-aid"?  IMO, there is no reason to use such denigrating phrasing on this forum.  Surely someone with your gift for words can express deep disagreement without them.

Hear Hear!!  Post of the week in my opinion...

some people just have a miserable outlook and find happiness in bringing that misery along with them wherever they go...even to a hobby board.

Well, we don't know that. A lot depends on what the additional labor and production time costs are to have workers handle, hand-place and glue each individual figure onto the individual seats in the car interiors. That is probably a fairly significant cost item. And as has been well publicized, Chinese labor costs have increased substantially over the past few years.

C'mon.. lets not confuse David with FACTS.. you'll wreck his perfectly good rant and we'll just have to listen to more of his  BS about drinking whatever... 

We all know that David will compare apples to raisins if he thinks it will help him in his ridiculous musings....

It might make the most sense to package a decent number of people of suitable  quality  and inn sufficient  numbers with each passenger  set so the buyer can choose to populate the cars as they see fit, or not to at all.

You could just model the Penn Central...then you don't need to worry about passengers...

You guys make it sound as though opening up these cars to populate them with figures is a walk in the park. It can be a real PIA. And you have to worry about scratched paint etc. So much easier when they are already there and number about 10/car. The aluminum recent Lionel and older K Line cars are not easy to disassemble and put back together without something going haywire.

Come to think about it, but $600 list ($525-$550 retail?) isn't premium pricing for four 21 inch cars.  I'd think $800 list/$725+ retail would be the lower end of premium.

I think it would be a nice option when ordering a set of cars to also order some optional passengers. There could even be an option to have some bloodied passengers in case of a train wreck, just to keep everything real.  

How about a "Murder on the Super Chief/El Captan," Bob?  Have some fun with it--populating O scale cars--with a mystery to be solved.

Carl:  Lionel could do a whole Agatha Christie thing, complete with villains, detectives.  Then Lee would buy them up and do a Veranda Turbine sequel, Murder On The Train of the Future.  I can hardly wait.  Bob

Hey breezy, just to clarify... I wasn't in any way comparing Lionel PRODUCTS to 3rd Rail PRODUCTS... rather I was comparing the METHOD in which the different products are marketed, and thereby pointing out the difference in the two thread discussions as a result. 

 

The 3rd Rail thread carries a tone of excitement and positive attitudes -- regardless of the fact folks are opening their wallets to pay for those excellent features (aluminum, LED lighting, detailed interiors w/people, etc...).  And the excitement and enthusiasm is warranted, since Scott is giving folks what they want and even giving them some options (i.e., more people, Kadee couplers, etc...) if they want/need them.

 

Lionel, OTOH, continues to make mis-steps while trying to balance the fine line between internal profit margins, consumer price, and product features.

 

I referred to Lionel items as premium-priced products -- not because they're premium priced ala 3rd Rail... but rather because they are premium priced over MTH's offerings which I view as closer to being in the same league.  Although truthfully, we just won't know until we see Lionel's first 21" ABS offering later this year. 

 

If you need an actual product comparison though ... I was thinking more along the lines of Lionel offering 21" ABS at $600 MSRP for 4 cars, whereas MTH offers a similar-styled ABS car (albeit 18") at $450 MSRP for FIVE passenger cars.

 

I'm not gonna get into personal attacks with the other posters who want to try and spin my comments to be controversial when they are not.  I'm simply pointing out that Lionel has a recent history of scaling back on features, and often does so with the explanation that they're always being good corporate citizens by trying to keep product costs down.

 

Really?  That doesn't seem to be a problem over in the 3rd Rail / GGD camp.  In fact, the way folks have jumped on Scott's "second" El Capitan production run, I'm wondering if he might even do a third!!! 

 

With Lionel, they've back-paddled on whistle-steam, roadname/roadnumber-specific Crewtalk/Towercom dialogues, aluminum vs. plastic cars, and now people-less passenger cars.  Thankfully, they listened to the consumer push-back on whistle-steam, and that's now back part of regular and V/L steam products.  And Roadnumber-specific Crewtalk seems reserved for V/L locomotives right now.  So it's doable... we just need to pay for it.

 

Those are the FACTS, if anyone is having trouble discerning the realities of recent product roll-outs.  Let's be very clear about it.  We as toy train enthusiasts have every right to push back occasionally when we see features being withdrawn from the market.  That's typically NOT the way the technology treadmill is supposed to work.  Price/performance should IMPROVE over time -- not decline.

 

I like the stuff Lionel offers, and if I push back on something it's because I think they're making a move that takes away from being the best they could be.  They shouldn't be defending "no people in the passenger cars" because we want to keep the price down.  If MTH is still doing it, then Lionel should be able to offer the feature as well.

 

I have no blind brand loyalty here.  Competition in the marketplace is good, because it allows us to evaluate the best possible price/performance out there... and purchase accordingly.  Not on price alone, but rather price/performance.  There's a not so subtle difference there. 

 

David

 

 

not gonna get into personal attacks with the other posters who want to try and spin my comments to be controversial when they are not. 

 

 

David/Rocky Mountaineer, no one is attacking you.  You chose to use pejorative phrasing and you were called out for doing so.  Use the edit function and clean up your previous posts--simple to do--I've done it myself to correct intemperate comments on this and other forums.

 

 

 

We are serving the ol rocky mountaineer by responding to his diatribe,Do yourselves a favor and do not respond then he will be on his pulpit with no congregation.

Mikey

blah blah ..yada yada..

Yeah, well . . .

 

I came late to this thread because although the subject was a bit of an issue for me when it became clear that the new "highly detailed" interiors of the Lionel 21" ABS cars would not include passengers, it's already been explored fully in another couple of threads, of which this is one:

 

https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/t...cancellations?page=2

 

and there have been numerous threads about the difficulties of trying to find figures that actually fit in O gauge interiors.

 

Moreover, and to get back to the OP's original question of "why" no figures, it might help to mention something I can't see that anyone already has in this thread: in the Notch 6 broadcast (or somewhere else) Mike R. actually explained that Lionel had costed including figures in the new cars and concluded that it would drive the price point up higher than they thought the market would bear. I can see that - the cost of sourcing the right size figures plus having them hand painted and installed when Chinese labor costs are rising would probably add materially to Lionel's costs bearing in mind they are adding close-coupling features and LED lighting.

 

So I'm reconciled to adding passengers if I want them and I can find any that fit. (My concerns about the new cars have shifted to how they are going to be painted, particularly how the metal panels on some streamliners are going to be rendered. Why not use Testors Metalizer or one of the other paint products that resemble shiny metal surfaces? I suspect that the answer once again is cost.)

 

At York there were only drawings of the 21" cars on display on Lionel's stand so I guess that's where they are in the manufacturing process - on the drawing board. Apart from getting the paint finish right I hope that Lionel make it easy to get at the interiors for those who want to add extra detail.

My, my, people! I'm one of those forum members still happy with 15" aluminum cars with the old window strips. So whether or not the newer, longer passenger cars already come with a few painted figures glued inside of them doesn't make a lot of difference to me.

 

However and again, another thread that has become quite amusing and entertaining. I for one, enjoy reading Rocky Mountaineer/David's analytical comments. He is right in that Lionel should not be scaling back features, while at the same time claiming they're doing it to keep costs down, while their prices continue to increase. So the consumer is really paying more for less. 

 

I have more Lionel trains on my layout than any other manufacturer, but am not a die-hard fan of Lionel as many of you seem to be. The "defend Lionel at any cost" mentality that some of you seem to promote here is pointless.

 

So, keep up the good work, David. Your input and analysis is still needed and appreciated here.

1.  Same here but at the risk of beating a dead horse (this subject has been raked over enough already) the reference to increased prices as respects passenger-less passenger cars is wrong.

 

The new 21" ABS cars have a catalog price of $599 for a 4 car set; the street or pre-order price from one of the main dealers is $500 or slightly less. The last set of 18" aluminum cars I got, cataloged in 2010 (the SP Shasta Daylight) had a catalog price of $639 for a four car set and when I bought one in the aftermarket last year it still cost almost that much. (I see Charlie Nassau is offering one of these for $499, which is the best deal I have seen on one of them in a long time.)

 

The upshot is that the new cars are not more expensive than the old. They do have a different feature set but what I get from this is that Lionel got out of aluminum cars because of materials expenses and production difficulties and shaved a few expenses to keep the retail price where it was 5 years ago despite rising costs in Chinese manufacturing. I bet they are not seeing any real increase in profit on the new passenger sets.

 

2.  I'm not interested in defending any manufacturer at any cost - they can look out for themselves. I am prepared to take what Lionel says about cost and new product standards at face value because it's consistent with what other manufacturers have done (remind me - how long has MTH been out of the aluminum passenger car market?) However, pre-ordering a 21" ABS set is a leap of faith and if I'm disappointed in the finish and detailing I won't be shy about saying so. I hope to see a production sample at York in October . . .

 

P.S. And here's why (I want to see a production sample):

 

A photo of a Texas Special observation car:

 

 

Never mind the quality or the ride - look at that shine!

 

Here's a nice photo taken by Passenger Train Collector (Brian) of his Lionel 21" observation car (mine looked like this until the windows clouded up thanks to the glue the factory used to apply the windows):

 

 

In in fact the the model is closer to the original than the photo shows. For good measure here's the K-Line precursor of the Lionel cars:

 

 

 

This is the sort of metal finish that was possible in aluminum; are they going to get close with ABS bodies? Hmmmmmm.

 

Incidentally, what or who is that I see adorning the inside of the models - John Q. Passenger??

Bottom line with Lionel is......Lionel is like a box of chocolates.....you never really know what you gonna get...... some items are great.... some are complete duds, some are "almost there"....some aren't even close.

 

Too funny and too true.

""""Rocky Mountaineer/David'sanalytical comments.""""

 

.....my little friends say it all when it comes to THAT comment...

Since I didn't order any of these cars, I don't have a dog in this fight.  However, I think that Lionel should offer separate packages of passengers suitable for their cars.  They would get to control the quality of these passenger figures, and they could price them so they didn't lose money in the production, what's wrong with that?

 

John, I hope it's not a fight; in any case I can give you two reasons why Lionel wouldn't do this-

 

1.  It would encourage do-it-yourself disassembly of the cars, which would likely lead to breakage and returns for non-warranty repairs that Lionel probably needs like a hole in the head and certainly does not want - to say nothing of the grumbling from people who wouldn't understand why figures had not been installed at the factory to start with!

 

2.  What I think is the more substantial problem: finding good passenger figures that fit inside O gauge interiors is practically impossible at any price. Lionel must have had a source for these in years gone by (look at the Acela figures for the prime example) but now I at least can't find any of a similar standard.

I can refute those two reasons.

 

I'm not really buying the warranty issue excuse, the fact that there are no passengers in the cars means people will be opening them up anyway!

 

As far as finding good figures, Lionel has far more resources for that effort than an individual, I doubt that's a serious problem if they wanted to offer the product.  They managed to build the VL-BB, surely they can find a source for quality O-scale seated passengers!

 

 

The passengers figures should be made in the USA based on photos of real people that traveled on passenger cars during 1930 to 1970.

 

Standing, walking, and seated figures at the stations.

 

Seated, standing, and walking figures inside the passenger cars.

 

 

Andrew

Correct me if my memory is wrong, but I seem to recall that K-Line first put figures in their cars and then Lionel.  Wasn't MTH last to this party?  I can't say that not having figures in the cars is a deal breaker for me, but it is a disappointment for sure.  I agree that if we buy future Lionel passenger cars that we will have to open them and add figures.

 

I'm still a Lionel booster, but wish I could understand what direction they are going on some of these things.  They show so much promise for hi-railers on some things and then take steps backwards on others.  Maybe it has always been this way, but it seems more noticeable lately.

 

Art

 

I'll certainly second that but I don't see it happening. I have looked into 3D printing of passenger figures for the eras you mention and the cost is still prohibitive.

 

3D printing isn't going to be cost effective for any volume of parts, including cab and passenger car figures.  Obviously, these have to be molded in quantity to be reasonably priced.

 

You're second point about cutting costs doesn't really resonate, as my suggesting is they simply add to the product line some passenger car figures.  I don't mind if they are reasonably priced, at least they'd be available and sized properly for the Lionel cars.