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Williams Brass K4 and some upgrades

Dennis HollerDennis HollerOGR Forum Member

I just recently bought a (I think) first issue Williams Brass PRR K4 and thought I might post some about it here.  First off, it was  suppose to be DOA, but I felt the price was right ($139 + shipping) to make this happen.  I know about the old Reverse boards in these giving up the ghost and figured that was probably the case and that I could either fix or replace anything needed to make it go again.  Needless to say I tend to buy a lot of projects...

Anyway, here's a couple of pictures of it to start with.

 

First from the auction:

 

 

Williams K4 side

Williams K4 tender

 And now on my layout running fine after a bit of work and tweaking.

 

100_1830

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Last edited by Dennis Holler
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Dennis HollerDennis HollerOGR Forum Member

So it turns out that it wasn't quite DOA because it did run for me, but it did end up running and sequencing inconsistently. I did not see any burned spots on the old board, but at the same time I didn't really feel like messing with it when 1) I plan to upgrade this engine later to a Cruise Commander and 2) I had a trusty mechanical E-unit ready to go.

 

So here is the original reverse board in the tender.

 

 

Williams tender with QSI

And here is the "backdate" to an American Flyer three position E unit with a nice little rectifier installed.  I had actually used this E-unit is an MTH  Railking K4 that also had a failed QSI board .

 

 

100_1827

So, if nothing else, this just goes to show that it can be done, and it will work although this type of install is seldom if ever mentioned.  For me it's a no brainer since I have plenty of parts and this engine was "broken" anyway .  This is my "get her running" trick.

 

PS, I forgot to mention, notice how this install also uses the same factory Williams harness to connect with the engine.  Again, the immediate goal was, make this $139 engine run.... NOW!... Task completed

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Dennis HollerDennis HollerOGR Forum Member

So, now that it runs, Let's consider some updates, or shall we say some items I would like to correct.

 

Start with Electronics:

1) Cruise Commander...  No CC Lite here

2) MTH fan driven smoke unit as the Seuth was DOA, and was worthless anyway.

3) Super Chuffer.  I'm really interested in this little bugger, so It is on the list for sure.

4) Some form of Railsounds possibly.... This may even be optional... we'll see.

5) maybe an electrocoupler- this should go well with 1 & 3.

6) This may be out there, but I would like to put Whistle smoke on this engine too.

 

Geez... That's a lot of stuff!

 

Now for the mechanical changes I would like to make.

Keep in mind this loco as built was a Williams three rail version and as such is lacking in detail and has god awful HUGE plated flanges.  In addition, the lead truck is rather elongated and in my opinion is installed with a pretty poor swing geometry compared to  current designs on similar engines.

 

Simply put, with my very rough measurements, the lead truck wheelbase is 3/8" too long, the lead truck CL is 1/8" forward of where it should be, the pilot beam is in the neighborhood of 3/8's + longer than it should be and of course as others have mentioned the boiler is about 1/8" to long.

 

Now, I'm not sure if I really want to cut the boiler up, but I definitely want to do something about some of those dimensions of the lead truck and front main frame.

 

So we'll start with

1) New lead truck frame with similar install geometry to the Lionel/Kline  K-4 and a shorter more prototypical wheel base.

2) 36" dia lead wheels, with more scale flanges. 

3) from there would like to experiment with moving the cylinders back that 1/8" and see if there is any way to make that change work with 36" scale wheels.

4) move the pilot beam back closer to where it ought to be based on the success of the steps above.

5)  Consider shortening the boiler only if 3 shows good merit, otherwise no reason to mess with it.

6) Correct the flanges on drivers and trailing truck as well.

7) Add details and repaint.

 

So there are a bunch of things I'd like to do with this engine  that I think would help make look more prototypical and I'll try to make some progress and post the results here.  I think thee is a lot of good with this, in rebuilding "cheap" Williams brass into something hopefully good looking and then adding the good smoke and controls as well.

Dennis HollerDennis HollerOGR Forum Member

Below is a great shot comparing the lead trucks and pilot of three different "scale" K4's...

 

100_1832

You can really see that difference in lead truck length on the Williams engine.  Honestly, this is probably the single feature that kept me from really wanting to get one of  these engine's for a long time.

 

From here, I'm going to make a new lead truck frame with a shorter wheel base and will post back here those results and we'll see where this go's.

 

Please feel free to ask any questions, or make comments as well.

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Dennis HollerDennis HollerOGR Forum Member
Chuck,
I think we are both aware of two things:
1) Neither C&O nor PRR has or had copyright to K4 or K-4
2) You can find it written both ways in all manner of documentation.
 
But thanks for your comments  and I'll change it to K4
 
Originally Posted by CRH:

A K-4 is a C&0 2-8-4 Berkshire type called Kanawhas.

 

http://www.steamlocomotive.com/berkshire/?page=co

 

 

 

Last edited by Dennis Holler
HW Hot WaterOGR Forum Member SUPPORTING MEMBER
Originally Posted by Dennis Holler:
Chuck,
I think we are both aware of two things:
1) Neither C&O nor PRR has or had copyright to K4 or K-4
2) You can find it written both ways in all manner of documentation.
 
But thats for your comments
 
Originally Posted by CRH:

A K-4 is a C&0 2-8-4 Berkshire type called Kanawhas.

 

http://www.steamlocomotive.com/berkshire/?page=co

 

 

 

For what it is worth, the model pictured and being discussed above is a K4s, and ONLY the Pennsylvania Railroad had THOSE! 

BlueComet400BlueComet400OGR Forum Member SUPPORTING MEMBERDIGITAL SUBSCRIBER

Dennis, I just acquired the same Williams K4. Mine has a few issues and I'm wondering if you can help. 

First, the pilot's clearance is very close--so close that it scrapes the rails and hits the guard-rails on my switches. Second, on one side, the eccentric crank is loose and the crank pin broke off. I've looked around for replacements, but no luck. Any advice you have on this would be much appreciated. Thanks!

John

G3750G3750OGR Forum Member SUPPORTING MEMBER
BlueComet400 posted:

Dennis, I just acquired the same Williams K4. Mine has a few issues and I'm wondering if you can help. 

First, the pilot's clearance is very close--so close that it scrapes the rails and hits the guard-rails on my switches. Second, on one side, the eccentric crank is loose and the crank pin broke off. I've looked around for replacements, but no luck. Any advice you have on this would be much appreciated. Thanks!

John

That's odd.  Is the pilot visibly bent downward?  Can you show us a picture?  Typically these engines have great ground clearance.  By the way, someone in the TCA (see the quarterly newprint publication) regularly advertises that they sell Williams K4s pilots.

Don't know what to do about the crank issue, but didn't Williams have a lifetime warranty on their locomotives?  I can't remember; did WBB decide to honor that warranty?

George

GG1 4877GG1 4877OGR Forum Member SUPPORTING MEMBERDIGITAL SUBSCRIBER

I've had a Williams K4 for years.  It is a good runner, but needs some additional weight on the pilot truck.  Since I've transitioned a majority of my PRR to 2 rail, I haven't decided whether to keep it, update it to the postwar look and 2 rail it, or simply let it go.  I love the Williams brass line.  For its time it was great.

An old photo of a Weaver GG1 bookmarked with my Williams K4s on the left and one of my Sunset K4s's on the right.

IMGP7455_ED

My Sunset for Comparison. 

IMGP9107_ED

Finally, the Williams model next to an ancient 17/64 scale K4s that I believe was built in the 30's.

_IGP9104

Please keep us updated on your progress of your project!  I'd love to see how it turns out when you add details.

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BlueComet400BlueComet400OGR Forum Member SUPPORTING MEMBERDIGITAL SUBSCRIBER
G3750 posted:
BlueComet400 posted:

Dennis, I just acquired the same Williams K4. Mine has a few issues and I'm wondering if you can help. 

First, the pilot's clearance is very close--so close that it scrapes the rails and hits the guard-rails on my switches. Second, on one side, the eccentric crank is loose and the crank pin broke off. I've looked around for replacements, but no luck. Any advice you have on this would be much appreciated. Thanks!

John

That's odd.  Is the pilot visibly bent downward?  Can you show us a picture?  Typically these engines have great ground clearance.  By the way, someone in the TCA (see the quarterly newprint publication) regularly advertises that they sell Williams K4s pilots.

Don't know what to do about the crank issue, but didn't Williams have a lifetime warranty on their locomotives?  I can't remember; did WBB decide to honor that warranty?

George

It doesn't appear to be bent downward, but I'll look again. I contacted Williams but they have no parts left for this and they won't warranty anything. I have the original paperwork from this loco, purchased in 1986, and at that time it only came with a 90-day warranty. As a temporary fix for the eccentric crank issue, I removed the eccentric rod. It doesn't look great, but it will at least run until I can find a fix for that--provided I can figure out the pilot issue. 

G3750G3750OGR Forum Member SUPPORTING MEMBER
Dennis Holler posted:

Maybe post a pic of your loco and the pilot.  I have two of these now, bought one for $139 and the other for $75, both right place right time.  As of yet, I have not made any updates on my locos, but as others have said, they seem to run great and I would think they would be great for some electronic updates. 

Dennis, you're absolutely right.  Both my K4s got the TrainAmerica TMCC, Railsounds & EOB treatment and I love them.

The K4 in the photo below had its pilot replaced (the TCA guy) with one with a coupler for double-heading purposes.

1160132326_fPu5F-L

This is my other (more photogenic ) K4s.

1160135017_AZBZa-XL

Iconic representative of "The Standard Railroad of the World"!!!!

1160136026_5hZYJ-L

 

George

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D500D500OGR Forum Member

Projects. Love them. Have too many. Never get to all of them

And Williams brass steam - well-made and usually inexpensive - I have to stay away from them. Their USRA Heavy Pacific (imperfect version, but not bad)  - I have trouble not buying them. Same mechanicals as the K4s, I would think. Don't have a K4s to compare.

The big flanges on these locos - I paint the shiny wheels black or weathered black anyway (masking the actual running tire face) and let the track wear away what it needs to on the flanges - usually a thin strip and the big flange tends to fade away in the dark.

Front truck wheelbase - yeah - for 031, etc, track. I have 072, so that WB could be shortened.

brwebsterbrwebsterOGR Forum Member

Not being much of a historian, did William's utilize anything from earlier brass offerings by companies like Max Gray, All Nation, etc?  The level of detail on that William's K4 looks identical to the Max Gray example I have on hand, missing sand dome access steps and period correct mods, etc.  The front end configuration isn't quite right on the William's example, with the TC box moved to the right running board when outfitted with a sheet metal pilot....the smoke box front platform, and change int class light design.  As usual, the folks at Sunset got it right.

Bruce

GG1 4877GG1 4877OGR Forum Member SUPPORTING MEMBERDIGITAL SUBSCRIBER

As I understand the Williams brass locomotives were all new tooling at the time.  Korean factories can fabricate everything very efficiently out of brass and they do it very well whether it is all brass construction or the various castings required.  However, someone can correct me, I believe that some of the early Weaver brass locomotives are the same tooling as the Williams versions. 

The Sunset model I posted is off a little.  It is the High Iron series from 2004.  The front porch is too long and the pony truck slightly longer to accommodate 3R flanges.  However with the correct 36" wheels on the front, it is not quite as noticeable.  The Precision Scale is one of the nicest ones I've seen.  At $1k used, another $300 for a better working drive, and having to paint it that is out of my reach for some time. 

Detail of the Sunset lead truck.

IMGP9109

Regardless, the Williams model still looks pretty good coming around the curve.

_IGP9088

 Well shoot ... was thinking of thinning the herd, but I really like my Williams one too.  :-)

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BlueComet400BlueComet400OGR Forum Member SUPPORTING MEMBERDIGITAL SUBSCRIBER
RLaHaie posted:

Precision Scale Company sells lots of detail parts for locos including valve gear items.  You can also find O scale brass detail stuff on the Bay.  Bet you can find an eccentric crank that will work one of those places.

Rolland

Thanks for the referral on Precision Scale Co. I'll check with them about the eccentric crank. 

In the meantime, I spent some time after work this evening tinkering with it. I took the pilot off--there was at most 1 centimeter clearance between it and the center rail. I was able to bend it very slowly / carefully upward, and after putting it back on, there is now plenty of clearance!! I also replaced all 4 traction tires, and it now runs very smoothly, pulling all 6 of my PRR K-Line 18" heavyweights with ease. 

Thanks guys for the posts--it may sound strange, but just reading all the posts on this thread gave me the confidence to take a closer look at the pilot and give it a try. Problem solved!! Now, on to finding a replacement for the eccentric crank pin. 

John

Last edited by BlueComet400

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