York Apr 17

Registered and like Buzz indicted all the answers are on the official site - no need to speculate. 

 

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With all the rules and regulations concerning public entry to York; how could that ever result in a positive outcome?  I understand the need for the restriction to public entry to only the two commercial halls. That is easy to manage, but how is the "only open to the public on specific days" going to succeed?  With day restriction rules added in as well the public will not bother to attend. If the ED is not willing to be more accommodating, they might as well just revert back to a members only meet and hope for the best.

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With all the rules and regulations concerning public entry to York; how could that ever result in a positive outcome?  I understand the need for the restriction to public entry to only the two commercial halls. That is easy to manage, but how is the "only open to the public on specific days" going to succeed?  With day restriction rules added in as well the public will not bother to attend. If the ED is not willing to be more accommodating, they might as well just revert back to a members only meet and hope for the best.

Some people are never satisfied. Is this what they call, "the slippery slope"?
If the dealer halls were open from the beginning, then some folks would be saying its no good because the whole show has to be open.

Does the public come to shows where the first few hours are members only?..... the answer is yes.
This really isn't any different.

It's not difficult to put conditions on the hours.

The questions from the start has been: "Where will the show draw from", and "How much demand is there?".

IMHO, by April, with Christmas over, and nice weather coming, most of the general public is done with trains, leaving only the more serious enthusiasts. I don't think the show is going to draw "N" scale or "HO" scale folks, that leaves the "S" and "O" gauge folks who aren't members.

I think the October meet would draw more people.

C.W. Burfle
C W Burfle posted:

I don't think the show is going to draw "N" scale or "HO" scale folks,

I'm afraid it WILL draw N and HO folks, who may think this is a Greenberg type show. Then, after they pay their $, they find little to no N and HO.

Better advertise:

First time the public is welcome to the TCA Train Meet...however, 2 days only, 2 buildings only, O and S gauge only. Only $14.

THe one thing the ED has to do is advertise and also put the word out to Ho and n scale vendors that they are welcome also. 

If the York show is strictly O gauge then the show will fail. Attendance has been going down over the years and it is getting to a point if it keeps up the future does not look bright. 

This will be my 63rd straight York and I want them to continue and to that it must change or die. 

We all have to encourage vendors who don't normally attend to do so this April and beyond. I model Ho now and I have a stake on getting the public to attend and having HO and N scale vendors to attend as sellers. 

Timonium show is mostly the smaller scales but there is many O gauge vendors and even a few O scale vendors and believe me the show was jammed with attendees. It was my second time at this show and believe I will go back. Plus there were many modular clubs from N scale to G. A couple of Ho clubs are huge and they looked incredible. Also one club who models European type trains and has a full catenary that looks amazing. Never seen a catenary system modeled on a modular layout before. The layouts and clinics are worth the visit.

 

It's looking more and more like the ED is going to advertise just like they did last October's Meet, by just hanging a banner on the fence outside the Fairgrounds.

But absent of details, I can see loooong lines at the Orange Hall public registration table, if they have to explain the different levels of pricing, the hall restrictions and the badge distribution to every single person who signs up!

Those security guards are going to have their hands full weeding out the correct badge holders for their building.  You just know more than a few non-members are going to try to enter the member halls regardless of the restrictions. (assuming there's a large crowd to begin with!)

Brian

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The matter of gauges/scales being offered (or not) at York is rather important to the long-term success of this event once it is open to the public.

Whether we O and S gauge fans and supporters like it or not, HO and N are still the two most popular modeling scales, by far, and they also have traditionally ranked among the most under-represented scales at the York Meet (somewhat understandably given that it is and traditionally has been a Train Collectors Association event). This is especially true with current and new releases of HO and N product, not to mention Z and Large Scale.

Folks modeling in those scales may show up for one time when they see that the York Meet has some public days and hours, but they likely would not return again and they just as likely would quickly spread the word among their peers in those respective scales.

I think the York meet as O gauge will do just fine.  It's an expansive event and lots to see and consider.  I'd like to go without having to join a club.  I'm sure there are many hundreds others just like me.

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Traindiesel posted:

It's looking more and more like the ED is going to advertise just like they did last October's Meet, by just hanging a banner on the fence outside the Fairgrounds.

But absent of details, I can see loooong lines at the Orange Hall public registration table, if they have to explain the different levels of pricing, the hall restrictions and the badge distribution to every single person who signs up!

Those security guards are going to have their hands full weeding out the correct badge holders for their building.  You just know more than a few non-members are going to try to enter the member halls regardless of the restrictions. (assuming there's a large crowd to begin with!)

That's pretty how much I see it also Brian.

I think the ED is just praying and hoping the public shows up. It would help if the Mfgs. helped getting the word out. People don't show up by osmosis. 

Rocky Mountaineer posted:

Thursday as the "members only" day is looking better all the time, which is the day I've been attending the past few years.  So it's business as usual for me!!!  

David

That's when I do my heavy lifting.  Friday is more social and impulse buying.

The website made no sense to me, I'm new to the hobby and I went to "register online" but that was to join TCA, which I have no problem doing, but then there is no way to pay and register for the show because the link just takes me back to join the TCA again, the "online registration" does not work and is very confusing on what you are supposed to do

PSU1980 posted:

Registered and like Buzz indicted all the answers are on the official site - no need to speculate. 

I always enjoy going to York because the vendors and table holders were also members. Everyone I ever dealt with knew your name because of the name badges, membership and fellowship. Most table holders are polite and talk to you as members should. If there was a problem with a purchased item when you got home, you could always call the member and discuss the issue.

I have no problem letting the public attend to promote the hobby and hopefully get a person(s) to sign up and become a member.

Ive been to shows all over the country the last 30 years, and the York show is like no other show. Hopefully non members who attend see how extensive, large and friendly the show actually is.

Like someone earlier said, Thursday is the Big day anyway.

As for how the Eastern Division monitors and polices it, is up to them. There will always be bumps in the road with change.

Cant wait for April!

 

Buzz 

Buzz 191

I honestly do not think we are going to see any difference in attendance because the Eastern Division is not doing the required advertising for a show like this.  A banner on the fence is not going to do anything.  They already missed the train magazines for March and April.  I get that everyone who runs the meet is a "volunteer" but why change the meet rules if your not going to tell anyone?  Once again...York Meet...the greatest train meet in the world no one ever heard of  BigRail

GG1 2340 posted:

Ive been to shows all over the country the last 30 years, and the York show is like no other show. Hopefully non members who attend see how extensive, large and friendly the show actually is.

Exactly the point! It was a special event unlike any other in the hobby. I'm afraid that it likely will lose that "special appeal" for many...current members, prospective members, etc.

I go to York because it's a unique O gauge mecca.  If would seem to me, more people in more halls translates to more revenue for everyone.  I"m OK with more people.  The game changer for me is if York ceases to be an O gauge mecca.  If the extensiveness of O gauge is replaced by other popular gauges and moves towards a mixed gauge show, I can get that experience a lot closer to home.  

Steve

I guess those who attend on Friday/Saturday will know first-hand how "successful" the new changes are -- however success is defined, presumably by increased registration numbers.

Somebody bragged recently they needed to park a mile away from a Greenberg show, and that was implying Greenberg knows how to attract a crowd.  Hopefully, that's NEVER gonna be the case for York... 'cause I've been quite happy with the crowd sizes in recent years (which is why I've been attending on Thursday), although registration numbers have been down from say 5 years ago.

I've always maintained York can't be all things to all people -- nor should it even try.  I think the EDTCA deserves lots of credit for trying some new changes, although it hasn't been 100% clear to me who they're trying to satisfy with these changes -- their own needs or somebody elses... 'cause I have nothing but positive things to say about the kind of show the EDTCA has conducted over the many years I've attended.

David

 although it hasn't been 100% clear to me who they're trying to satisfy with these changes -- their own needs or somebody elses.

It has been stated that the Eastern Division has been loosing money on the past few shows, and that they are looking to increase attendance so the show makes expenses, and to satisfy the big dealers who want an open show.

I think they should have raised prices for admission and for member tables. When compared to public shows in my area, the York show is way underpriced. (Don't know anything about dealer space pricing)

As an aside, I recently went to visit the web site of one of my favorite suppliers, Miniature Lamp Works.  Jill has posted that she will no longer be attending the York show, but her internet business will continue.

C.W. Burfle
richabr posted:

If the extra time causes some dealers to arrive home too late in the evening it may force them to stay an extra night. The extra rooms and meals for the crew would be a considerable extra expense.

You can't have it both ways.  If you want a public show the hours need to be extended.  Careful what you wish for.

I expect the carnies (carnival folks) will be able to get the tent down and out of there in short order as they are used to that kind of thing.

C W Burfle posted:

Then they really can't complain about lost sales and the meet being public.

Did the little guys in the dealer halls ask for the show to be open to the public?

If they did or didn't is no longer the point as that change has been made.  Obviously enough folks made noise to get it changed.  Now those who did need to step up and follow the times setup.

If they did or didn't is no longer the point as that change has been made.  Obviously enough folks made noise to get it changed.  Now those who did need to step up and follow the times setup.

The Eastern Division may have to start enforcing their rule against leaving early. However, if they do, they can expect to loose more dealers and member table holders. It's a hard rule to enforce when you don't sell out your table space.

C.W. Burfle

It's been a fun run and I've enjoyed York for almost 25 years now. I'm sure the internet has taken a big bite out of it. And many of us probably have all we want (or have run out of room). And how many Hudsons or F3's (an F7 really isn't that different) or GG1's can you have anyway? 

But the real issue is probably lack of new blood. People who didn't "grow up" with trains are much less likely to get involved, and we all know what happened to Lionel in the 1960's. You can't change that.

Gerry

 

     

 

 

Again regardless of who rallied for the rule change, it has been made.  It should be enforced.  If it doesn't work then things will be back to status quo and everyone can start cleaning up at 11 and be gone by 2.  They certainly won't "sell out" your table space leaving early either.

There are so many things that will get table holders upset and loose more dealers.  Higher table cost, which I believe you promoted, staying setup 2 hours longer, or the concession stand runs out of coffee.  Bottom line is the EDTCA is trying something.  If some of the dealers have a better idea maybe they should speak up if they haven't already. 

EDTCA tries something, people complain.  They do nothing, people complain.  They really are much like the manufacturers in a no win situation.

richabr posted:

I was told the driving force to this experiment was the manufacturers.

Having spoken with the principles the evening of that meeting I can confirm this was the case.

As for the casual sellers in the dealer halls, they will have the option to move to the member halls if they don't want to stay until 4PM on Saturday.

Pete

The rules state you stay till 4pm in the dealer halls, if you don't want to abide to the rules, STAY HOME and let somebody else take your spot.

As others have stated the changes have been made, deal with it and maybe just maybe it will be better for all. 

There are so many things that will get table holders upset and loose more dealers.  Higher table cost, which I believe you promoted, staying setup 2 hours longer, or the concession stand runs out of coffee.  Bottom line is the EDTCA is trying something.  If some of the dealers have a better idea maybe they should speak up if they haven't already. 

I suggested raising the price of member tables and admission. (Don't know enough about dealer space costs). The cost of the tables /admission has to be a very small component of the cost to do the York train show.

It has been a very long time since I've seen an Eastern Division financial report. Without seeing one, I am going to guess that the personnel costs of putting on the show are rather high. Eliminating Thursday, and going back to a two day show would eliminate a day's worth of security costs. Perhaps other costs too. Maybe the show would be profitable again as a two day show.

As for the casual sellers in the dealer halls, they will have the option to move to the member halls if they don't want to stay until 4PM on Saturday.

How does that work with the PA tax number issue?

 

C.W. Burfle

The rules state you stay till 4pm in the dealer halls, if you don't want to abide to the rules, STAY HOME and let somebody else take your spot.

That's the problem, there is nobody to take your spot.

Sure, I agree that people who get tables should stay to the end.
Also, people shouldn't speed, jay walk, litter, and all sorts of other things.

C.W. Burfle

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