York april 2015 observation

First off, as has been stated several times, the York meet belongs to the Eastern Division of TCA.  As in most organizations in America, you can get involved, get elected, get the membership behind you, and then start making the changes that you want.  That may involve you moving into the Eastern boundaries. 

Or better yet, build up the membership in your TCA division and get a show going that rivals York. 

The comparisons between different shows would be more interesting if you kept the comparisons in the same hobby and in the same state.  Compare other PA train shows to York.

I drive several hundred miles to go to York because of the concentration of dealers, diversity of trains, and fellow hobbyists.  It's not perfect, but it is entertaining to me and worth the trip. 

The huge group of volunteers and members of that division get a tip of the hat from me.

I liked York for the variety of larger vendors under one or three roofs.  Now I just take a road trip and go to their stores.  Most of the time the isles are clear of the people that act like it's old home week and block the passage of everyone because they are oblivious to everyone else in the world, no strollers or electric carts to run you over and usually a better selection of local restaurants.

What stores? (that have any stock but HO and N)?  I agree about the familty reunions

held at the junction of aisles, artfully designed to block traffic from four directions,

and the other obstacles and "road hazards". I fear I would have a longer drive than

to York to find stores with much of anything, much less a concentration such as it is,

and often there is little there I want.

Well, you could start by comparing the York Greenberg shows to the York TCA meet, since they take place at the very same venue.  The big difference is that the Greenberg shows only make use of half of the Orange Hall.

The Greenberg folks are good people, and I'm sure that they would like to put on a public train show that takes up the whole fairgrounds, but apparently many dealers that go to TCA York won't bother for Greenberg.  I can only guess at the reason for this, but I am guessing that it is because they don't think there is enough potential customers in the area to make it worth their while.

I think a big part of the success of the York TCA Meet is the dedication of the TCA membership in general and, more specifically, the volunteers of the Eastern Division.

Andy

i think you are correct in your assumptions andy

While York is still an excellent meet run by great people, the times are changing and policies need to be changed accordingly.  I fear the restrictive members only admission requirement will lead to the eventual demise of this event within five years. The TCA/ED is largely dependent upon the shrinking baby boom generation of exclusive TCA member hobbyists for the success this event. As this generation continues to age, factors such as decreased mobility/health, downsizing/relocation, monetary concerns and the economy all come into play. As this situation continues on its inevitable path, attendees at York will decline and they will spend less.

Point is that restricting admission to this event hurts the vendors like OGR who spend loads of money for food, employees, accommodations and travel to sell there.

An open admissions policy (the same as all other hobby events have) will be the the only saving grace available. Look at the AACA, the largest automobile club in the world. Anyone can attend to their fall Hershey show and it attracts over 250,000 people. AACA does it, so can ED/TCA. 

 I hope that further discussion on the York meet can be made, factual & logical evidence presented, positive suggestions made, solutions offered and personalizing kept out. 

Opening the York Meet to the general public (keeping in mind that it already is open to anyone and everyone who cares to go and who can afford the membership/admission fee) will, in my opinion, in no way significantly increase participation in the event. Many long-standing independent member/sellers will pull out, many TCA members who enjoy the event for its focused members-only orientation will stop attending, and many dealers/manufacturers will either scale-back their level of participation or go to Oct.-only participation.

Some progressive decline in overall attendance and participation is inevitable. The challenge comes in figuring out realistic ways to adjust to that.

With in 5 years? OK if it does I will purchase for you any item from the Lionel catalog that year of your choice, if not you will do the same for me. By demise we mean it goes away completely right? The car show analogy is bogus, there are way more car collectors in this country than O and S gaugers combined, you'll never see 250,000 at any train show. Christmas displays that are open for several weeks during the holidays would be hard pressed to generate those numbers so I don't think that many would actually go to York. Greenbergs, Allentown and others don't generate those numbers and they are open to the public so apparently there is no huge numbers out there who are waiting in the wings for York, if there was they would go to the shows that are open to them.

Jerry

I agree on all points. Based on feedback from sellers at the World's Greatest Hobby Show, as well as many Greenberg shows (where I spent full weekends with our modular group), about the only thing the "family out for the day" were buying was "Thomas The Tank Engine" do-dads. Some WGHS dealers told me "Never again!".

There are probably a fair majority of these families that are no more apt to start a train collection/layout after visiting a train show than they would be to start a collection of odd pets after visiting a zoo or start their own amusement park after visiting a theme park.  The Thomas purchases are the souvenirs from the experience in most cases.

A Train Show is an experience for them, not a repeat destination or a new hobby.  Next weekend is a different experience.

Just like people go to boat shows and car shows.  Not everyone there is going to buy a new boat or car, but it's something to do.  Someone may like to see the top of the line Corvette, Mustang, etc, but for most in attendance it doesn't mean they are going to their local car dealer to order one the next week.

Obviously there are exceptions, and such things are helpful to at least let people know such a hobby still exists.  (all the "I didn't know they still made Lionel trains" posts over the years)

The things they will remember is the displays of manufacturers and the layouts, most likely.  The tables upon tables of product for sale isn't going to resonate in a positive way for many(and the sticker shock could dampen the desire for a few who may wish to try the hobby).  And this is why there is nothing wrong with the current model of the York Meet.

-Dave

That's pretty much what I was going to say. 

Dennis, I will bet you right now $1,000 cash on your prediction that York is totally gone by 2020. Attendance might be down but it will be there.

Jerry is correct. You can't compare O Gauge trains to autumotive hobby. The automotive hobby has much greater numbers.

Dennis, thank God the ED TCA doesn't listen to your ideas because opening York up to the public is exactly what will make your prediction come true. Fortunately, that's never going to happen.

One of of the things (IMHO) that makes York so great is that everyone who attends loves trains. Opening up to the public would bring lots of families who only have a temporary interest trains because they have young kids who like Thomas,etc. Sad to say but most of these parents and kids can't get out of the hobby fast enough when the child enters the video game age. The fact that everyone at York is a real die hard enthusiast makes York more fun and makes it better for manufacturers both large and small to talk to the people who actually are participating in the hobby. That's probably why they don't attend Greenberg shows. 

I think you either underestimate the number of people that are into cars, or overestimate the number of people that care about toy trains. I attend a Volkswagen event in Georgia that draws around 40,000 people for one brand. Think then about how many more people are into modern Mustangs, Camaros, and Corvettes. Then how many are into muscle cars. Then the street rodders and hot rodders. Then the other import folks. Add in the guys into 1950s cruisers, and the people into British cars.

This is certainly the biggest O gauge forum on the internet, and probably one of the biggest focused upon model railroading. Yet, search sites like 3sdm, vwvortex, Jalopnik, yellowbullet, etc., and look at the size of their membership.

It isn't fair to this hobby to try to compare it to the car community at all. There are just a lot more car people than model railroaders. And, even though cars are divided into a number of different niches, an event like AACA is going to have people from all the various niches attend. 

So what are you trying to say??

Who are you talking to? 

If directed to me, I'm saying he's comparing an event that would have 10 times the attendance of York whether it was open or not to the TCA event, which isn't a fair or equitable comparison. And, since anyone can now join TCA at the door, York is already an open event, for all intents and purposes. 

Membership in an organization should have benefits that aren't available to the public.  One of the biggest TCA benefits is the ability to attend York.  (I have never been there but I hope to go someday.)

I attended the NMRA convention in Portland and the National Train Show.  The National Show was open to NMRA convention attendees on the first half day from 9 to noon.  The public was let in at noon on the first day (Friday) and all the time on Saturday and Sunday.  I was a little bit annoyed by having to compete with kids to see the displays and talk with manufacturers on Friday afternoon.  There weren't very many dealers at the national train show.  

I was only at the train show on Friday because I needed to return home on Saturday.  I don't have any idea what the overall attendance was.  My impression for Friday was that the show was not very well attended.   The national train show does not seem to have the draw that York has even though it is open to the public.  

NH Joe

"What stores?"  There are plenty out there.  Several of them display at York, many more wont do York because it's like selling in a fishbowl.  I live in North Eastern Maryland and there are some great stores that sell O scale with in a couple hour drive.  I also have relatives that live in New York City, New Jersey, Colorado and Pittsburgh.  I have been to most of the dealers that exhibit at York and you can get the same deal in the store as you can by going to York and save the membership dues.  I went to Lionel's page and downloaded all the dealers by State and have a binder in my car with every dealers address listed by the city they are located in.  Some of them sell other scales like N and HO, but most scenery items can cross multiple scales.  I also have Z, N and a small HO set. 

Anyone thinking about the Allentown First Frost? 

Jerry