Not so sure that I agree with Caboose 1. I have been a long term member as well and $50.00 is about all I see leaving my wallet for TCA dues and what I pay for METCA. I enjoy the friendship, the hobby, and register early to pay my fee for the show......to me the public is nice but all it is is foot traffic - when the general public sees the prices of entry into the hobby - they may just never come back,
Dealers are better suited to court newbies.
I will be long gone before Saturday morning.
Moonson posted:There are a whole lot of "the public" who are not going to pay admission to get in; it would seem, to them, like paying admission to gain entrance to a mall to shop
I don't follow, you mean to say the public will never pay to get into a show to buy things? Goes against all the shows I see advertised at various venues for everything from cars to toys to gardening to fishing to boats to... People pay all the time to get into shows to buy things, Greenbergs is a good example of our little corner.
Jerry
Moonson posted:There are a whole lot of "the public" who are not going to pay admission to get in; it would seem, to them, like paying admission to gain entrance to a mall to shop . And malls everywhere are on the decline.
I hope I am wrong.
frankm
Frank, Based on many hours with our modular group and various Greenberg shows, I've seen many families paying admission for "a day out with the kids". However, they seem to spend very little once inside.
If that is going to be the case at York, in terms of $ spent, it would be a shame if that resulted in a drop in TCA memberships or in the number of members attending York. I still don't know how you tell a non member that they are not allowed to enter buildings C,D,E, and F after they have paid to "get in".
Joe Hohmann posted:If that is going to be the case at York, in terms of $ spent, it would be a shame if that resulted in a drop in TCA memberships or in the number of members attending York. I still don't know how you tell a non member that they are not allowed to enter buildings C,D,E, and F after they have paid to "get in".
It shouldn't be a problem, as long as it is clearly laid out in advance, before paying.
Public is buying admission to areas A&B. If you want access to areas C, D, and E, you can join as a member instead of just paying the public price.
Very simple to understand. If the whole thing is offensive to them, they can just walk away and not attend at all.
Considering the Orange Hall alone is bigger than probably any Greenberg show, there should not be too much disappointment.
-Dave
Jerry and Joe, You both make good points.
As I said, I hope I am wrong.
Joe Hohmann posted:If that is going to be the case at York, in terms of $ spent, it would be a shame if that resulted in a drop in TCA memberships or in the number of members attending York. I still don't know how you tell a non member that they are not allowed to enter buildings C,D,E, and F after they have paid to "get in".
Easy. Before they pay, you tell them that halls C,D,E, and F are member only halls and admission does not cover those. They can make the choice then whether to pay admission and follow the rules or like most these days, pay admission and the whine about not being allowed in.
when the general public sees the prices of entry into the hobby - they may just never come back
Bingo!
Hmmm, I don't know about that. We all got hooked into it, didn't we? And we've all paid the prices and love it still !!
Traindiesel posted:Hmmm, I don't know about that. We all got hooked into it, didn't we? And we've all paid the prices and love it still !!
Yes, but many of us paid that price for childhood memories and nostalgia...not for metal and plastic running around a track. 
But many of us, like me, just love running trains. That's my memory of nostalgia!
Reading all the posts is interesting. You find out all the different niches of the hobby. If you like to buy and sell or are a dealer, you get frustrated when you can't sell a lot. I have seen some folks get really annoyed when people just walk around. I have encountered some sellers that are down right nasty when you can't make a deal ( luckily they are very few) If you are only trying to thin out your collection so you can buy other gems, the frustration of not selling is a lot less. If you are like me and go to buy and be around like people, then the whole experience is really enjoyable. As to those who say the price of the hobby will chase people away I have to disagree . There are nice affordable sets for kids to start with. Sure those of us in the hobby for years would not go that direction as we are already into more details and realism . TCA sometimes is way behind the times. Look how long it took them to relax the rules for cell phones and cameras hahaha. Opening York to the public is a GOOD change. If we only want to keep it a CLOSED society for us, that is surely a path to the demise of York. THat's my 2 cents anyway. hahaha
C W Burfle posted:when the general public sees the prices of entry into the hobby - they may just never come back
Bingo!
Please show me an inexpensive hobby that doesn't include the chance of procreation.
Different generation today. Every Greenburg or WGH show I've ever been to has one thing in common. The majority of parents attending with kids are there to spend some "quality" time together, nothing more. Look at the layouts (limited at York) and maybe buy a Thomas toy, hot wheels car or super hero to shut the kids up. Not enough to satisfy the big dealers. I have my doubts about the idea but time will tell.
Please show me an inexpensive hobby that doesn't include the chance of procreation.
I am not sure what you mean.
I think there is a better chance of getting new people into "O" gauge trains when they come in the way many of us did. That's with a starter set that grows.
If the Eastern Division is hurting for $$$, how will the "open to public" message be communicated to the masses? Greenberg and WGH shows spend newspaper and radio advertising money.
But as others have said, give it a try.
In the October issue of the TCA Quarterly, in the President's Column (page 3), it is mentioned there is to be a meeting with dealers to discuss advertising, scheduling, rules and other issues during October's Meet. TCA will have a booth in the lobby of the Orange Hall for info and sign ups as well as the usual in the Silver Hall. Then at April's Meet a new policy will be implemented.
The column goes on to say that so far the dealer halls will be open to the public on Saturday only. Hall hours will be extended. The TCA booth in the Orange Hall will provide the opportunity for the non-members to sign up and have access to all the halls immediately upon sign up.
That's the info from the TCA Quarterly magazine. Things will probably change a few times before April. The Eastern Division seems determined to see this through. It's their party so as long as I'm invited I'll have a blast!! I myself would love a few extra hours on Saturdays!
Traindiesel posted:It's their party so as long as I'm invited I'll have a blast!! I myself would love a few extra hours on Saturdays!
BINGO! Thanks for the information Brian.
Brian, just yesterday I was also reading the TCA Quarterly and I found it interesting what the President had to say. Did you also read the editor's column?
He says, "How many members will the TCA lose if the dealer halls are open to the public?" Later on he goes on to say, "My feeling is that we are playing with fire. If we lose members will they ever come back? I fear this is not a reversible action and could cause serious financial damage to the TCA. If the public is so eager to have trains, where is the evidence of this at the hotel meets during the York week when no membership is required? What do you think?"
I agree with his concerns. I seriously hope this experiment works out for the TCA. To answer his next to last question, I think the obvious answer is #1) the public doesn't know about the bandit meets, heck I don't even know where and when they are and I try to keep up with what goes on in this hobby; #2) the bandit meets are probably held at a time when people who work are working. Even if they knew about them they probably couldn't have made it anyway.
I wonder whether the dealers will be happy to learn that the Saturday show hours are going to be extended.
There is an old saying: Be careful what you wish for.
Well, longer Saturday hours is a plus. Does that mean the table holders will start packing up at 11am, rather than at 10?
C W Burfle posted:I wonder whether the dealers will be happy to learn that the Saturday show hours are going to be extended.
There is an old saying: Be careful what you wish for.
I was wondering the same thing. I think it will depend on how far the dealer has to travel to get home. The further away they are the more the extended hours could be a problem.
Well, longer Saturday hours is a plus. Does that mean the table holders will start packing up at 11am, rather than at 10?
Since the show is going to be opened up to the public on Saturday, with extended hours, I think the Eastern Division is going to have to get serious about enforcing rules about packing up early. If there are no rules, they will have to define them. (Assuming there will be an admission fee) If they do not, those that attend will not have a positive impression, and may demand a refund (rightly so).
On a positive side, the dealers will have more opportunity to sell product. On the negative side, they will be adding more table time to an already long show. Plus the extended time at the show may increase their expenses for salaries, food, lodging and what have you.
Most of the local shows I attend will stop charging admission if a significant number of vendors have started packing up and/or leaving. Some shows threaten to bar vendors who leave early, but they never follow through.
Why would the member halls need to stay open and setup any longer? If Saturday is primarily for the public, which it seems like it is, this seems like it affects the dealer halls more than the member halls. I'd hate to be a member table holder stuck staying setup on Saturday and not reaping the benefit of the extended hours. I guess we'll have to wait and see how it's all handled. Can't worry about it yet I suppose.
C W Burfle posted:I wonder whether the dealers will be happy to learn that the Saturday show hours are going to be extended.
There is an old saying: Be careful what you wish for.
That is the price they will have to pay for getting what they wanted (nothing in life is free). I also hope they are going to be contributing to the advertising that will be needed in order to get "the public" to come to the meet.
To me, it looks like the EDTCA is taking the best possible route for this little experiment. I hope they gather and publish the results (perhaps as a press release to OGR or as an article in the Quarterly) quickly so that we can see if it was worth it. Meaningful statistics would include member attendance numbers (with some historical numbers for comparison), "public" attendance numbers, new memberships (people who joined at the meet) and dropped/lapsed memberships (compared to the numbers from previous years). Afterwards, a survey of the dealers might also be a good idea to see if it was worth it to them and if they would want to continue with this model. This info could be collected and published as well.
Andy
Why would the member halls need to stay open and setup any longer?
Wow, I may have misread the statement about extended hours on Saturday. I thought they meant dealer halls only. Perhaps the member halls will be included. Here is a possible reason:
Since the Eastern Division has bent the meaning of "guest", any first time attendee can sign up as a guest to get into the member halls. The ED probably wants the public to see the whole show, so the member table holders need to be there too.
If the ED is going to require a legitimate "host" for a "guest" to gain admission, they may still want the member table holders to stay in order to entice people to join on the spot.
Here's my two cents. I'm ok with longer hall hours if it translates to more sales. I think most dealers feel that way. For me though it's a ten hour drive back to Indiana, with a 2PM close time, that is doable in one night. If the halls stay open until 4ish on Saturday it means I'll be pushing 2AM to get home or incur another night in a hotel. Personally I would like to see Thursday go away and lets go Friday and Saturday.
This is a hard line to walk for the TCA. You either risk loosing the support of the big dealers and manufactures or you try and make this work and risk loosing membership in the process. Tough calls and maybe some painful realizations await for York over the coming years.
IMHO, asking member hall table holders to stay longer when they are not guaranteed to get much of an increase in foot traffic would be a mistake, especially considering that we don't know if this experiment will bear any real results. Perhaps the EDTCA can cut off guest registrations at 10 am and advise registered guests to hit the member halls first. After that, they could offer advance guest registrations for the fall meet, and offer free or reduced price admission for the fall meet to anyone who joins on Saturday.
Andy
C W Burfle posted:Why would the member halls need to stay open and setup any longer?
Wow, I may have misread the statement about extended hours on Saturday. I thought they meant dealer halls only. Perhaps the member halls will be included. Here is a possible reason:
What Brian posted really doesn't say if the extended hours are for both the dealers and member halls. We'll have to see. I wouldn't get worked up yet.
At this point, as I imagine we are all aware, that "public" is a complete and total abstraction. (I am reminded, here, of a TV show in which contestants have to prove the efficacy and viability of a product and/or service to investors who might want to support them.) There is not one flesh-n-blood member of "the public" who is aware or informed of such a venue, let alone ready to plunk down money, no matter what its form.
Then, there is the geography of it all. Are we talking about that public coming from the immediate York area, or even from a 30 mi radius? How many of us are from that area? I doubt ten. Thousands?!
Even if the TCA utilized several full-sized billboards around that immediate area (oh, yeah, sure), which would require a good sized load on money, for how long would those signs be needed to attract customers? And would they?
TV? Announcements in churches? Hand-outs at food markets? Doubtful and dubious benefits. IMO.
How, then, does the TCA inform and draw from the larger market, as far as, let's say, the East coast, let alone the rest of the USA? Many of us come from far and wide, don't we.
Many of us heard of the York Meet from hobby magazines and/or the word-of-mouth of hobbyists, or interested parties, at, perhaps, clubs or local hobby shops. How many of the public are involved in such conduits of information to our hobby? One wonders.
Attracting a new market to our TCA meet is a daunting proposition, complicated far, far beyond scoring clever points in this conversation here , no matter how sincere.
Just some thoughts.
FrankM.
Moonson posted:Even if the TCA utilized several full-sized billboards around that immediate area (oh, yeah, sure), which would rrequire a good sized load on money, for how long would those signs be needed to attract customers? And would they?
TV? Announcements in churches? Hand-outs at food markets? Doubtful and dubious benefits. IMO.
How, then, does the TCA inform and draw from the larger market, as far as, let's say, the East coast, let alone the rest of the USA? Many of us come from far and wide, don't we.
FrankM.
Maybe it starts with US. We should be promoting by word of mouth. The membership should be involved. Folks said it should be open to the public, they should be the ones helping spread the word. OGR Magazine who was rallying for this change should be placing the information in their magazine. I suspect they will. Lionel, MTH, and the other dealers who said they wanted this change should be putting information on their webpages and perhaps flyer in sets. Lots of avenues for free advertising. It's time for the dealers to put their money where their mouths are.
It's time for the dealers to put their money where their mouths are.
LOL, its a lot easier to look for someone else to do it. If the dealers, including Lionel and MTH, were promoting their product, there would be no need to ask the TCA to "grow the hobby".
C W Burfle posted:It's time for the dealers to put their money where their mouths are.
LOL, its a lot easier to look for someone else to do it. If the dealers, including Lionel and MTH, were promoting their product, there would be no need to ask the TCA to "grow the hobby".
Well lets be honest here, some of the dealers are clamoring for York to go public so they should share part of the advertising. Basically that's what the dealers are asking the EDTCA to do for them.
baltimoretrainworks posted:Moonson posted:There are a whole lot of "the public" who are not going to pay admission to get in; it would seem, to them, like paying admission to gain entrance to a mall to shop
I don't follow, you mean to say the public will never pay to get into a show to buy things? Goes against all the shows I see advertised at various venues for everything from cars to toys to gardening to fishing to boats to... People pay all the time to get into shows to buy things, Greenbergs is a good example of our little corner.
Jerry
Just want to counter - I have a friend who is at retirement age, limited income, but got the Lionel bug. I sponsored them once to the York meet, and after it they joined the TCA and have gone to most Yorks since with their RV. They don't spend a lot, but as new train people, they get excited about the kinds of items that most of us have had and taken for granted, and which hence are very cheap, because folks are just trying to unload them; examples, we found a very dirty set of 5 'Silver' passenger cars for $125. Cleaned up nice. 2065 in super shape for about $130. A gateman for like $5. Boxes of old track and 90 watt transformers for pocket change. Not everything is in the high $Hundreds. I got a kick out of helping them dig out the bargains for the stuff I've had for years. I doubt that they spend more than $200/meet and come away with piles of stuff. I've bought 2037's for $35 and fixed them up to give to young parents. They will run them for the next 50 years.
Jim Waterman
Jim Waterman posted:baltimoretrainworks posted:Moonson posted:There are a whole lot of "the public" who are not going to pay admission to get in; it would seem, to them, like paying admission to gain entrance to a mall to shop
I don't follow, you mean to say the public will never pay to get into a show to buy things? Goes against all the shows I see advertised at various venues for everything from cars to toys to gardening to fishing to boats to... People pay all the time to get into shows to buy things, Greenbergs is a good example of our little corner.
Jerry
Just want to counter - I have a friend who is at retirement age, limited income, but got the Lionel bug. I sponsored them once to the York meet, and after it they joined the TCA and have gone to most Yorks since with their RV. They don't spend a lot, but as new train people, they get excited about the kinds of items that most of us have had and taken for granted, and which hence are very cheap, because folks are just trying to unload them; examples, we found a very dirty set of 5 'Silver' passenger cars for $125. Cleaned up nice. 2065 in super shape for about $130. A gateman for like $5. Boxes of old track and 90 watt transformers for pocket change. Not everything is in the high $Hundreds. I got a kick out of helping them dig out the bargains for the stuff I've had for years. I doubt that they spend more than $200/meet and come away with piles of stuff. I've bought 2037's for $35 and fixed them up to give to young parents. They will run them for the next 50 years.
Jim Waterman
And how will such folk react to being told, after or while they are exploring the acreage at York Fairgrounds, that they are barred from entering certain buildings? Walking and walking and walking, with the kiddies in-tow, perhaps, or just meandering around with an indulgent spouse, or on the adventure solo, finding out one is not privy to such-n-such doesn't seem, to me, to be welcoming; rather, I suspect it would be off-putting. Can you imagine a typical shopping-mall doing so, barring walk-in's from entering all the stores! Doesn't sound good to me; rather, counter-productive and not a way to build a customer-base.
Jus' another thought.
FrankM.
Moonson posted:And how will such folk react to being told, after or while they are exploring the acreage at York Fairgrounds, that they are barred from entering certain buildings? Walking and walking and walking, with the kiddies in-tow, perhaps, or just meandering around with an indulgent spouse, or on the adventure solo, finding out one is not privy to such-n-such doesn't seem, to me, to be welcoming; rather, I suspect it would be off-putting. Can you imagine a typical shopping-mall doing so, barring walk-in's from entering all the stores! Doesn't sound good to me; rather, counter-productive and not a way to build a customer-base.
Jus' another thought.
FrankM.
Com'on Frank. I am sure all newcomers will be offered the one time deal to attend the whole show as a guest while being informed if they want to repeat that experience they will have to join the TCA.
Pete
Moonson posted:................................. Can you imagine a typical shopping-mall doing so, barring walk-in's from entering all the stores! Doesn't sound good to me; rather, counter-productive and not a way to build a customer-base.
Jus' another thought.
FrankM.
You mean like my local BJ's (Costco, Sams, etc) that is in the same row of stores as the Best Buy, Michaels, Babies R Us, etc?
I guess technically it's not quite the same since they will let me roam inside to my hearts content. I can't buy anything unless I pony up the $40 annual "club dues", however. (they do occasionally offer 2 month freebie "try outs" though. I've used them once or twice and always confirmed that it never makes sense for me to go for a membership)
Seems very similar to me. Some see little value in paying $50 to be able to attend York twice a year, I see little value in spending $40 a year so I can buy a bale of toilet paper for some small amount of discount over buying normal size packages at a store with no annual fee.
-Dave
Norton posted:Moonson posted:And how will such folk react to being told, after or while they are exploring the acreage at York Fairgrounds, that they are barred from entering certain buildings? Walking and walking and walking, with the kiddies in-tow, perhaps, or just meandering around with an indulgent spouse, or on the adventure solo, finding out one is not privy to such-n-such doesn't seem, to me, to be welcoming; rather, I suspect it would be off-putting. Can you imagine a typical shopping-mall doing so, barring walk-in's from entering all the stores! Doesn't sound good to me; rather, counter-productive and not a way to build a customer-base.
Jus' another thought.
FrankM.
Com'on Frank. I am sure all newcomers will be offered the one time deal to attend the whole show as a guest while being informed if they want to repeat that experience they will have to join the TCA.
Pete
Now, that seems a positive and interesting perspective I hadn't read previously. Good idea, Pete.
FrankM.
Com'on Frank. I am sure all newcomers will be offered the one time deal to attend the whole show as a guest while being informed if they want to repeat that experience they will have to join the TCA.
Ummmmm ...... that's not what they've been saying. They've been saying the public in the dealer halls only. Did the Eastern Division slide way down that slippery slope?
Your obviously a glass half empty guy CW. The ED has been acting as sponsors for folks coming off the street for a couple of years now. Why would they change that now. It stands to benefit both ED and National TCA.
Pete
Your obviously a glass half empty guy CW. The ED has been acting as sponsors for folks coming off the street for a couple of years now. Why would they change that now. It stands to benefit both ED and National TCA.
Nah, I just forgot to wear my rose colored glasses, by golly gee.
It would be a matter of numbers. If a large number of people were coming in though the bending of the guest rule, there would be no need to open any part of the show to the public. And the people taking advantage of the opportunity were probably already into toy trains.
If opening the show to the public draws a large crowd, it would be sure to include lots of novices, who are not likely to understand that many of the trains are not just toys to the people who appreciate them. Do the member table holders want to contend with that possibility?
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