ZW-L Quirk

No...I haven't noticed this.  But, I'll give it a try. 

Very interesting!!

Try putting a 10uf 50V non-polarized capacitor across the output of the ZW-L and see if that stops the transformer from tripping.  I saw the same kind of issue with some TMCC locomotives with the TMCC Direct Lockon, apparently some sort of noise was triggering the breaker.

If I were you , before taking any advice here I would contact JonZ directly. The ZW-L is his baby and he might be able to offer insight.

His email can be found here https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/profile/2415514336264569

Is the unit powering anything else at the time you tried to run the GG-1+ illuminated passenger cars?  The transformer can supply up to 180 watts to any given terminal BUT it has a top limit of 620 watts which is less than 180x4.  By dropping the voltage to the block you are trying to control the GG-1's with you are reducing the POWER delivered to the block and the red light stays off.  You can control the voltage but the current being used is based on the load seen by the outputs.

Chuck:  In my testings, I was only using the one output.  All the other outputs were off.  That's why I also setup a test track.  When using the test track I only had one output connected.  I should have the full 180 watts @ 10 Amps available.

Chris: I originally emailed Lionel support (end of May) and discussed with Mike Reagan.  The engineer was thinking it was just my unit that had a problem so he wanted to look at it.  I informed Mike that the replacement did the same thing.  I tried to follow up and offered to speak to the engineer directly.  I never heard back from them.   And according to the email I got from Mike, Jon Z was not the engineer.  Jim was the engineer and he was looking at the problem.  Its my hope Lionel is still looking.  In the meantime I wanted to know if anyone else has seen this.  Since I can reproduce the problem all the time and with 2 different units, I think its some sort of quirk in the transformer.

I am not complaining about Lionel's support as they did send me a replacement.  I am very grateful for them doing that.   I offered to talk to the engineer who designed the unit but never got a response.  In fairness to them, I did say I could live with it, if that's the way it works but I did request to be kept in the loop since I can reproduce the problem easily.

Id still shoot an email to Jon, can't hurt

I'm thinking the meter readings aren't all that precise.  Or the locos aren't predictably reducing their amperage draw proportionally when you increase the volts to 18V. These systems are far from linear.  It's total watts that are presumably tripping the overload circuit, and when you use 16V, your amperage draw is proportionally less rather than proportionally more than at 18V for some reason.  Hence the overload.  There's nothing magical about the meters if they're not reading true peak voltage or amperage, which I'm guessing they are not.  Somehow you're exceeding the overload setting at 18V, but not 16V with these particular locos.  May not be a flaw in the ZW-L, just too much power draw at 18V given the mechanical/electrical properties of the locos and the mechanical load put on them by these cars.

Try the 10uf cap I suggested, it's certainly not going to hurt anything, and if it's the electrical noise from certain engines as it was for me with the TMCC Direct Lockon, it may change it.  It's a quick test...

Do you have access to an external Ammeter?  Measure the draw of the passenger cars alone and then of the engine alone.  Open frame motors pull more than double the current of a can motored engine.  You have to power the field coil as well as the armature.  It is not uncommon for these to pull 50+ watts on their own.

I sent an email to Jon to see what he has to say.  May he knows more about it.

John: Cap sounds like a good idea.  Don't have any lying around so I'll pick one up first chance I get.

Chuck: The cars alone pull about 2 amps sitting on the track when its at full power.  So at 18 volts that's only 36 watts. 

So far I have not heard if anyone else has see this which is what I was also curious about.

I  am very interested in this thread.  I have not seen this on my layout with my Pullmor locos or my ZW-L, and I would have noticed if it was occurring, but that does not mean it is not a future potential problem.  I hope someone gets to the bottom of this - and thank you for all the work in bringing it to everyone's attention.

Is the two amps what the zw's meter's show or a stand alone meter?

Chuck: I'm going by the meters on the ZW-L.  I do not have a separate ammeter. 

Lee: Are you running in command mode?  The problem only occurs if the ZW-L is set to full voltage and you are running a pulmor motor and the amp reading on the ZW-L is around 6.  Can motors do not cause any problems.

I have the ZW-L set for command operation.  All four handles are set to max voltage.  I power up the ZW-L using the legacy remote.  I address track 1 and turn the red knob until the voltage meter reads max on the ZW-L.  Speed steps for the ZW-L is set to 200 for all 4 channels. 

My train room has a dedicated line from the Circuit Box - 20 amp breaker, 12 gauge wire to the outlet, powering the outlet.  Nothing else is on the circuit.  The ZW-L does go through a power strip.  I tried plugging directly into the outlet and it had no effect.

I suspect the meters are not reading properly with the open frame motors (they may not be ready correctly, period).  Everything you are describing indicates you are pulling current well over the 6 amps displayed.  Since  the train behaves if you back down the voltage to 16 I don't think this is a noise issue either.  I'd recommend getting a hold of a decent meter and checking the actual draw or try running that train configuration on a straight PH 180.

I would think the locomotive would require more current to move at the lower voltage setting, so I'm not sure I agree with the analysis that this has to be an over current issue only at 18 volts. 

I tested a Pulmore motored locomotive with four lighted 15" passenger cars at 14, 16, and 18 volts track power.  The start-up and running current for the same observed speed was more at the lower voltages in every case.  This was using a pure sine wave transformer and a Fluke clamp-on ammeter.

I think something more than simply over current is in play here.  I could certainly be wrong, but I wouldn't bet all my money on lower current at lower track voltages, especially during start-up and attempting to maintain the same speeds.

I'd still like to see the noise suppression cap tried.  I'm not saying it'll solve the problem, but the process of debugging is simply removing possibilities until only one remains.

Hey John,

The Heavy weight passenger cars I'm using have 4 bulbs per car.  So they are power hungry.  If you have the time, maybe you feel like a road trip to me in Malvern and you can bring your meter along to see whats going on?  And of course - run some trains!

Email me if interested.

One thing that confuses me..

I added a second gg1 to the load, and at 16 volts, I can run 2 GG1s and the passenger cars and the ZW-L doesn't miss a beat.  Its amp meter reads around 8-9 amps.  I would think that that load would be too much handle but it handles it.

If you subtract one car from the consist does the train run OK at 18 volts?

The ZW-L is not a pure sine wave power source and the actual instantaneous power the consist is trying to pull is just over the 180 watt max when the throttle is set at nominal 18 volts.

Following Chucks thought. Try a freight train. Pull the passenger cars off one at a time and see what changes. Then bring your load up with freight cars. No lighted loads. lighted passenger cars have caused minor problems in the past.