brianel_k-lineguy posted:Jim R. posted:The problem in China is quality control involving small subcontractors for certain parts such as trucks, couplers and frames. Some of these model-train subcontractors operate out of garage-sized facilities that are far from state of the art. Some, not all, of these proprietors are either sloppy or indifferent in the production process for these castings.
The low-volume nature of these parts productions is what prompts the primary contractor to seek outside help.
Whenever this topic of Zinc Pest comes up, it seems to be mostly more recent production higher-end, scale products. Which bears out what Jim wrote above, as most of the scale products are extremely small production runs. Which is why we have BTO. And it's not just Lionel: All the companies are doing it under differing explanations. MTH, Atlas and 3rd Rail have all also cancelled lots of product that failed to reach even the new extremely low, minimal production run numbers. HO scale too: Rapido has cancelled products that didn't show enough interest.
The problem doesn't seem to be as prevalent (not unheard of, but not as prevalent) with older produced China-made trains. But I think that's because they were ALL mostly made at Sanda Kan, who was making nearly every manufacturer's trains. Sanda Kan had the possibility to group production runs from differing companies who all might have been offering a die cast product. Remember when Sanda Kan got into trouble, with Kader buying them out. Now remember the panic when nearly all the train companies had to scramble to find NEW production facilities when Kader dropped them all? It took some of those companies a couple years with great difficulty and problems.
Now remember comments made by the train companies that there was a "learning curve" at all these new facilities. All of these train companies were forced to go to vendors who didn't have the expertise or experience in quality manufacturing of model trains that Sanda Kan did. Both MTH and Rapido have spoken of happily bringing aboard former Sanda Kan employees to their own dedicated Chinese factories.
I, at one time had more than a couple dozen die cast locomotives that were all starter sorts of products... ie: Large production runs. Most of them were made by Sanda Kan, but certainly some of them were made by Lionel's later vendor. Early Light was spoken of as one of Lionel's new vendors dedicated to starter products.
At any rate, I have had ZERO zinc pest problems with any of them. And more than likely, it would have started showing up by now. I did have some (no more than 6) K-Line "classic" type die cast trucks crumble on me, but they were also purchased as separate sale parts and showed signs of being defective when I got them.
So again, the problems are not exclusive to high end, nor from vendors other than Sanda Kan. But from what I'm reading, the problems are not nearly as common either. Again, it goes along with what Jim R. and a few others wrote, that the smaller the production run, the more likely the zinc pest is to appear.
As to what Leighline Chris wrote: "So until the current brands move their production facilities out of China the problem is likely to continue."
This is more than likely, not going to happen. There are a lot of variable and complications in this, but as a general rule, tooling made in China stays in China. This would mean Lionel having to abandon (or retool) nearly all of their scale product line. FasTrack too. Scott Mann has also written here about moving tooling and just how difficult it really is. Or how about Lionel trying to get the scale milk car tooling out of Romania: Didn't happen, they had to remake the tooling. Given that, the $99 list price is a steal... they should be more like $150.00.
MTH was always made overseas, so they have no tooling to bring back to the US. And K-Line: Forget it. Outside of what was sold, that tooling is all part of Kader, so that tooling isn't going anywhere. And of that tooling, what was once in the USA, were the non-scale K-Line products of MARX and Kusan origins.
It's somewhat less problematic for a company to relocate tooling that was brought into China from elsewhere. Notice in the case of Lionel, that the American made cars (outside of the Weaver LionScale) are all traditional products once made in the USA. Or the cars now being produced in Vietnam (the traditional ore and 2-bay hoppers and all of the older made Standard O cars) were all also once made in the USA.
And by the way, take note of that Vietnam made Norfolk & Western 2-bay hopper 6-pack. The "&" is not printed over the side rivets: I'm guessing the Vietnam vendor doesn't have the printing ability the way the Chinese vendors do. That to say again, there's a "learning curve" and quality compromises when the train companies move production to other facilities. Would the scale guys be content with that?
The problem as I see is as much our faults as the train companies. WE are the ones (well, not all of us) who wanted MORE precise scale, MORE accurate detail, MORE product variety, MORE features, etc. and the train companies responded in kind. And now we're all held hostage, both the train companies and the train consumers. Remember Lionel moved to China in the first place, not to lower prices, but to meet the new tooling challenge being posed by MTH and K-Line, who were already in China.
Yep, we got what we wanted, and a lot more that we didn't bargain on. The topic of this thread would be one example of that.
brianel k-line Guy: "And now we are all held hostage."
I ain't because I no longer buy any of it.
