Tagged With "072"

Topic

072 PASSENGER CARS WITH 054 OR 060 SWITCHES

Keith Buenzow ·
Does anyone have experience running cars requiring 072 curves running through 060 or 054 switches? Im curious and thinking that the short distance of the curve in the switch may not affect the overall tracking of the longer cars. If a 072 is immediately connected after the switch, than that would compensate for it. I have the atlas CZ cars and have a video on youtube demonstrating them on 072 vs 063 on atlas track. But this is over multiple sections (3 or 4). Am i allows to link to youtube...
Reply

Re: LionChief+ Rectifier picking 072 switches

chessie1971 ·
Bruce here is a video for the fix for the O72 switches.
Reply

Re: LionChief+ Rectifier picking 072 switches

JohnGaltLine ·
I lean toward the switch points being the issue as described in the video Chessie1971 posted. My guess is that the motor is pressing more weight over one truck than the other and the heavier side of the engine is want to keep moving in the direction it is going. If it turns out the switch is not the issue, however, it may be that the wires from the truck pick-ups are binding somewhere and limiting the movement of the truck. I've seen this on some other older engines, but not so far on any...
Reply

Re: LionChief+ Rectifier picking 072 switches

GregR ·
We commonly see this issue with Lionchief products at the store where I do the repairs. When the drive wheels are out of tolerance on their gauge (too much spread), the flanges will pick the switches. Often the wheels are not pressed all the way on at the factory. Sometimes, the wheels actually fall right off, straight out of the box.
Reply

Re: LionChief+ Rectifier picking 072 switches

PRR Bruce ·
Thanks for the comments! I will check to see if there is any gap on the fast track switches as discussed in the video. Will also check to make sure the wiring is not causing any binding to occur. As none of my other 6 engines are exhibiting this behavior, how do I test to make sure the wheels on the Rectifier engine have been pressed to the correct position onto the axle? There must be a flange-to-flange tolerance that can be checked? Thanks very much!! Bruce
Reply

Re: LionChief+ Rectifier picking 072 switches

Moonman ·
Check a few of the "good" engines to get an average and use that to compare to the troublesome engine. I have only experienced that problem with pilot trucks on steamers. New engine, so it could exist. If I recall, inside flange to flange should be around 1.06"-1.12". It was a too close state on mine. I'll mic my troublesome engine if you need it.
Topic

LionChief+ Rectifier picking 072 switches

PRR Bruce ·
Having problems with the rear truck on a LionChief PRR Rectifier 6-82179 picking Fastrack 072 switches. If its moving forward, the rear truck picks the switch and derails. If its in reverse, the rear truck picks the switch and continues straight instead of taking the turnout. Anyone else having the same problems with these engines? This is the only engine in my inventory that has this issue. Thanks Bruce
Topic

TRADE MTH Scaletrax 072 R/H & Atlas 072 Wye

britrailer ·
MTH Scaletrax 45-1020 072 R/H switch (no box) - $35.00 + shipping Atlas 6074 072 Wye switch OB - $50.00 + shipping Both tested and work well. Paypal gift preferred or USPS MO, Personal check Will trade both for an Atlas 6073 or Ross 125M/125M25 072 R/H switch Please email frankwyatt65@gmail.com if you have questions.
Reply

Re: 072 PASSENGER CARS WITH 054 OR 060 SWITCHES

Ace ·
I would agree with that idea, but the best test is to try it out with your own equipment and look closely to see if any parts are close to binding. O72 curves aren't really that wide for the longer passenger cars for appearances sake, but I assume your question is mainly regarding tracking ability. Other factors to consider are: how long is the total curve that the train is on, how long and heavy is the train, is there a grade, how smooth is operation over the switch with a complete train...
Reply

Re: 072 PASSENGER CARS WITH 054 OR 060 SWITCHES

rtr12 ·
Yes, linking to youtube videos is fine here. The linking tool is the film strip in the reply box toolbar.
Reply

Re: 072 PASSENGER CARS WITH 054 OR 060 SWITCHES

New Haven Joe ·
I don't have experience with the Atlas CZ cars. My experience with scale length 21 inch cars from Weaver and Golden Gate Depot is that O-72 is about as small a curve that they will negotiate. The cars may not clear the switch machines even if they will track through the switch. The only way to find out is to try it. NH Joe
Reply

Re: 072 PASSENGER CARS WITH 054 OR 060 SWITCHES

BobbyD ·
If you are inquiring concerning one piece of 060 or 054 in a curve most likely if the truck doesn't bind, the car will pass fine. With a wee bit more overhang of course! As Ace says, forces from load, grade, and curves in the consist may derail it.
Reply

Re: 072 PASSENGER CARS WITH 054 OR 060 SWITCHES

Berkshire President ·
While this may work with 0-63, 0-63 does not equal 0-54...by a long shot. There is a reason why the cars were not rated 0-54. You won't know until you try....but I wouldn't bet on it. Best of luck, though.
Reply

Re: TRADE MTH Scaletrax 072 R/H & Atlas 072 Wye

britrailer ·
Still looking for a trade
Reply

Re: Lionel O Gauge Switches run with DC Wiring Question.....

Junior ·
I was always planning on using a ZW dedicated to powering the switches and all the accessories; seperate from the other ZWs (I was however, planning to phase all ZW's and connect them together via the Common terminals......should Inot do that and keep the accessory ZW completely seperate??). But you've peaked my interest. If I understand what you're saying, DC current can "sneak in" to the center rail through the switches external power tap? Is that correct?
Reply

Re: Lionel O Gauge Switches run with DC Wiring Question.....

Junior ·
Excellent! You have been incredibly helpful Rob. Based upon your terminology, I suspect you have serious experience in electronics :-). So glad you were willing to share your expertise and keep me on "the right track"....pun intended :-)
Topic

Lionel O Gauge Switches run with DC Wiring Question.....

Junior ·
Hello Fellow Hi-Railer! I need your help! I am finally at a point where I can begin purchasing electronic components for wiring Lionel 072 switches to a control panel. I plan on controlling all my switches from the control panel by using SPDT (ON)-OFF-(ON) Momentary toggle switches and Red/Green LED indicator bulbs. I want to stay away from having to provide diodes for every LED. As a result, I came up with the following approach that I think will work (see image below). As you can see, I...
Reply

Re: Lionel O Gauge Switches run with DC Wiring Question.....

ADCX Rob ·
No further connection is needed. That center binding post on the 072 switch is common to the outside rails, which are connected to the "U" on the ZW, and all 4 "U" terminals are connected in common. The switch(& LED indicator) as pictured is running on half-wave DC as is the lantern bulb on the switch.
Reply

Re: Lionel O Gauge Switches run with DC Wiring Question.....

Junior ·
Hello Rob! Thanks so much for the fast response! To make sure I understand, you're saying I do not need to attach the DC negative output to anything? If my understanding is correct....that makes it very simple :-)!
Reply

Re: Lionel O Gauge Switches run with DC Wiring Question.....

ADCX Rob ·
That should be it. Prototype/test it on the bench and see how it goes. The DC voltage should be about 70% of the AC setting on the ZW.
Reply

Re: Lionel O Gauge Switches run with DC Wiring Question.....

Junior ·
That is awesome! I will test it tomorrow. FYI, I checked the AC output of the ZW (it was maxed out) with a volt/ohm test meter and the ZW is putting out about 18.5V. The corresponding DC output from the bridge rectifier appears to be just over 16V. Thanks again Rob!
Reply

Re: Lionel O Gauge Switches run with DC Wiring Question.....

Junior ·
Hi Rob..... I just got through testing the wiring on a spare 072 switch; connected as you described and.......it worked like a charm! I can now go ahead and order the electronic components and move forward with building my control panel. Thanks again!
Reply

Re: Lionel O Gauge Switches run with DC Wiring Question.....

ADCX Rob ·
One more step you may want to take if you have many switches - power half from your "+" terminal on that rectifier, and the other half from the "-" terminal to keep the load balanced on the ZW and avoid sporadic whistle/horn operation on the tracks. If you switch to a separate transformer for switch power, this isn't as critical. This will require you to switch the common legs of your LEDs(& resistor) powered by the "-" too, as the polarity they will see is reversed. If you are using a...
Reply

Re: Lionel O Gauge Switches run with DC Wiring Question.....

ADCX Rob ·
Dedicated is fine, common ground is fine too, but DC won't "sneak" in, it will present as a bias/offset in the secondary winding if one of the phases, + or - , is loaded heavily and the other is not rather close to equal. The return will always be to the originating transformer unless it's a MASSIVE short, so the Acc transformer load should have no effect on the train transformers.
Reply

Re: Lionel O Gauge Switches run with DC Wiring Question.....

JohnGaltLine ·
Im curious what the purpose is of using a bridge rectifier here? you're only using one diode in the bridge, and a single diode usually costs about 10-20 times less than a comparable bridge, Ex. 10A rectifier diodes are about 10 cents each, 1A ones are a penny or less. Also note that your LEDs are not really seeing a lower voltage here. Sure the RMS value of the voltage is about 7/10 of the input voltage with half wave rectification, but you still have a full wave peak-to-peak voltage being...
Reply

Re: Lionel O Gauge Switches run with DC Wiring Question.....

stan2004 ·
To be clear, are you measuring the DC voltage at the output of the bridge rectifier (i.e., between "+" and "-" terminals)? That is NOT the relevant voltage to measure. That voltage will be essentially double the voltage available to the actual switch motor and switch LEDs. Take you DC voltmeter and measure the voltage between the "+" terminal of your bridge and the outer-rail or "ground" voltage. I believe you'll see about 8V DC (instead of 16V DC). A DC meter reads the average voltage. This...
Reply

Re: Lionel O Gauge Switches run with DC Wiring Question.....

stan2004 ·
With half-wave rectification or using just 1 diode of the bridge, the average voltage thru the LED load is about 1/2 that of using all 4 diodes of the bridge. Also, in your diagram, it's not clear whether your red-arrows are meant to indicate actual current flow. In the Reverse Phase Flow, there is 0 current flowing from the power source on the left. Hence all the red arrows are "0" and there is no "circuit" path. The LED load gets nothing. I agree that the LEDs are pulsing on and off 60...
Reply

Re: Lionel O Gauge Switches run with DC Wiring Question.....

rtr12 ·
Dumb question. Where does one get the .637 and what does the .637 represent? I guess that's actually 2 dumb questions.
Reply

Re: Lionel O Gauge Switches run with DC Wiring Question.....

Junior ·
Hello John.....glad to meet you. To answer your questions about why I'm using a bridge rectifier.... 1. I'd like to minimize the soldering work I'd have to do per LED, 2. I have the bridge rectifiers from other projects, so I thought I'd put them to good use. I used 16V output based upon the voltmeter reading. But I think I see my error. The voltmeter is giving me a false reading? I can use resistors based up on a 28V peak. But for me to undestand what you're saying, I should not plan...
Reply

Re: Lionel O Gauge Switches run with DC Wiring Question.....

JohnGaltLine ·
Rtr and Junior, That .637 ought to be .707 first off. As to what it means, it is a conversion based on average voltage of a sine wave. AC voltage is typically measured in RMS. Root-Mean-Square is calculated by measuring the voltage many times as it rises and falls through the sine wave, then squaring the values (ex: 3x3=9), the squared values are then averaged, and finally the square root of the average is is reported as the reading. The point of all the math is that this RMS value shows the...
Reply

Re: Lionel O Gauge Switches run with DC Wiring Question.....

Junior ·
Hello Stan2004.....glad to meet you. I measured DC output voltage right on the + and - terminals of the rectifier. My concern is about the LEDs and pairing them with the appropriate resistor so I don't blow them up (I've not order any electronic components for my control panel and will hold off until this discussion thread has ended so I know what to get). Thanks for chiming in :-) ........
Reply

Re: Lionel O Gauge Switches run with DC Wiring Question.....

stan2004 ·
Note that there are a multitude of applications where an LED is driven many times its average or nominal current. Probably the most familiar example might be the flash LED in a smartphone camera. Here it might be driven, say, 10 or more times the nominal current for a very brief instant. But if you activate the smartphone's flashlight mode, that same LED would not be driven at the same current as the momentary flash or else that LED would smoke in short order. As with most electronic...
Reply

Re: Lionel O Gauge Switches run with DC Wiring Question.....

rtr12 ·
JGL, Thanks for the explanation. I knew what the 1.41 and .707 were, but the .637 threw me. Then Stan didn't say anything about it in his post so I thought it was something I hadn't seen before. Probably didn't want to over complicate things there. Anyway, I didn't know some of the details you explained, so I know more than I did. And that is what usually what happens when you ask questions around here! Lots to learn and this is the place to learn it. Thanks again. Edit: Woops! Guess I was...
Reply

Re: Lionel O Gauge Switches run with DC Wiring Question.....

gunrunnerjohn ·
Stan, shouldn't you consider the voltage drop of the diodes as well?
Reply

Re: Lionel O Gauge Switches run with DC Wiring Question.....

stan2004 ·
I need to disagree here too. I assume we're talking about those solenoid-coils that push/pull a steel pin to throw the switch? The current flowing in the coil generates a magnetic force proportional to the instantaneous current. A solenoid can do its thing in a fraction of a second. Consider the example values shown above for the one-diode method. The average voltage applied to the solenoid would be 7.2V DC. If this were a steady (non-varying) 7.2V then the coil will have a fixed...
Reply

Re: Lionel O Gauge Switches run with DC Wiring Question.....

stan2004 ·
GRJ is of course correct. I was careful to insert the term "IDEAL" bridge rectifier for the purposes of discussion and to work through the "math". But, yes, a diode drops about 0.7V DC when it turns on so any DC measurement output will be a tad lower. I haven't seen it in model train electronics, but what amount to "IDEAL" bridge rectifiers are now routinely used in electronic devices. They go by the name synchronous bridge rectifiers where 4 transistors are used instead of 4 diodes.
Reply

Re: Lionel O Gauge Switches run with DC Wiring Question.....

stan2004 ·
I disagree. The 0.637 is indeed 0.637, or more precisely 2/pi. Pi being the mathematical pi 3.1415... The math is somewhat nerdy but is exactly calculated by using integrals as shown above. What you are calculating in closed-form (in that there is an exact mathematical solution), is the average value of a half-cycle of a sine wave. So this is done by integrating the sine function for a half-cycle (or 0 to pi), then taking the average by dividing by pi. Pretty geeky but that's what it is. If...
Reply

Re: Lionel O Gauge Switches run with DC Wiring Question.....

gunrunnerjohn ·
Actually John, you can use a whole lot lower resistor than that as long as you have reverse voltage protection using a diode or you've connected two LED's in reverse polarity to protect each other. Let's just assume you have .707 of the RMS voltage to consider since the LED only see half of the cycle. I get around 14 volts, and I'm dropping at least two across the LED. So, we're talking about 12 volts or less, at 20ma, that's a 600 ohm or larger resistor. LED's will tolerate peak currents of...
Reply

Re: Lionel O Gauge Switches run with DC Wiring Question.....

Junior ·
Thank you all for the amazing discussion! Speaking with you all has yet again shown what an amazing, valuable source of information this forum is. And as always.....this forum is only as good as all of it's varied, well informed and experienced participants. As for me, I will move forward with using the single bridge rectifier and 1.5K ohm resistors in series with my LEDs. Thank you all again! And who says trains are "just" toys!! :-)
Reply

Re: Lionel O Gauge Switches run with DC Wiring Question.....

stan2004 ·
Well, I sometimes think the triac was the the worst invention EVER for train electronics! If only we could have bypassed the 60's (60 Hz that is) and jumped right to the modern switching frequencies of 100's of kHz or MHz. I marvel at how you now buy a home-theater amplifier that puts out over 1 kW of clean AC waveforms at about 10 cents per Watt or less. By using the class-D and related modulation methods we could easily have "pure" sine variable train transformers and none of this...
Reply

Re: Lionel O Gauge Switches run with DC Wiring Question.....

gunrunnerjohn ·
If we could bypass the early stuff, we'd also have brushless DC motors for our trains.
Reply

Re: Lionel O Gauge Switches run with DC Wiring Question.....

JohnGaltLine ·
Perhaps I see the confusion now. in this example you are multiplying the RMS of the input to get the RMS of the output. It is entirely possible that .637 is the correct number to obtain the desired value. Unfortunately, to my way of thinking, anyway, this RMS value to the LED is a useless number. Now it may be that I am off base here and that there will be no harm done in repeatedly overdriving an LED, but it has been my understanding that even brief surges over current will damage LEDs over...
Reply

Re: Lionel O Gauge Switches run with DC Wiring Question.....

JohnGaltLine ·
On the coils, I agree that the instantaneous current is what gets the work done, but in practical application they only need to dissipate the average current. In the application of a switch machine coil there is no need to worry about the peak current here, though one could go into the the details all day, but what it comes down to is that the coils can handle being over-driven much better than the LEDs can, and likely the coils are designed to support a 18VAC input anyway. On the .707 vs.
Reply

Re: Lionel O Gauge Switches run with DC Wiring Question.....

stan2004 ·
What junior researched and posted earlier is correct. Just as there is an exact calculation for the average DC voltage , there's a separate but also an exact calculation for the RMS voltage . By definition RMS is the square-root of the mean squared voltage. So you take the sine wave, square it, integrate it over one cycle (2 pi radians), take the mean (by dividing by 2 pi), then take the square root. A miracle occurs and it all washes out to the square-root of 1/2 (0.707) times the peak...
Reply

Re: Lionel O Gauge Switches run with DC Wiring Question.....

gunrunnerjohn ·
Stan, I think this is the same reason that many claim that chopped waveform transformers do a better job with smoke for conventional operators than pure sine wave transformers. Only in this case we're heating a resistor. If you double the voltage, the power goes up four times so there's not a 1:1 relationship.
Reply

Re: Lionel O Gauge Switches run with DC Wiring Question.....

stan2004 ·
BTW, one other thing I don't think was mentioned yet. If you stay with AC and the diode, the LEDs are pulsing on and off 60 times per second. It's kind of an age thing with most guys claiming they can't see this flicker but then again the average OGR reader is bit older than a teenager! Anyway, you probably don't have that many LEDs and you're using the LEDs for indication rather than illumination (room lighting) so maybe it's no big deal. But if you happen turn your head looking at your...
Reply

Re: Lionel O Gauge Switches run with DC Wiring Question.....

Junior ·
Simple and elegant solution! Thanks Stan......that works for me. BTW......Thanks to whom ever moved my post to the proper forum. I didn't realize I had created the post in the wrong forum.
Reply

Re: Lionel O Gauge Switches run with DC Wiring Question.....

Junior ·
Hey Stan...... I will have 29 Red/Green LEDs as switch indicators and another 10 or so Blue LEDs as block power indicators. So I will have quite a few. And I did see where several of the diode wiring diagrams for LED lighting included a capacitor to even out the the constant voltage peaks; eliminating the flicker. But....as discussed earlier....a DC wall wart removes all those complexities :-).
Reply

Re: Lionel O Gauge Switches run with DC Wiring Question.....

DS Texas ·
This has been a very interesting thread but often got above my head. Can you recommend an LED solution for those of us who don't want to "build" our own controller? I am using O22 switches using a separate transformer for constant voltage. For now I am planning to use original controllers which means three bulbs (1 clear, 1 red, 1 green) for each switch or about 15 watts per switch. I found direct replacement LED bulbs for $2.00 each or $6.00 per switch plus shipping at Town and Country...
Reply

Re: Lionel O Gauge Switches run with DC Wiring Question.....

stan2004 ·
29 Presumably you're still using the incandescent switch lanterns. Say ~1 Watt each so 30 Watts. Then control-panel LEDs at 20 mA from 18V DC is ~10 Watts (=29 x 18V x 20 mA). So 40 Watts just for lighting...or almost half the power of a typical 90W laptop charger. My concern is the ability of the DC charger to put out the brief pulse needed to drive the solenoid coil. Previously discussed was peak vs. average power handling of semiconductors (LED) vs. coils (solenoids). The flip side is...
OGR Publishing, Inc., 1310 Eastside Centre Ct, Suite 6, Mountain Home, AR 72653
330-757-3020

www.ogaugerr.com
×
×
×
×
×