Tagged With "Voltage"

Topic

LED 3 Volt DC Lighting Issues...I'm Stumped & Need Your Help!

Maine Main Line ·
Greetings. I've read as many posts as I could on low voltage lighting and thought I was well prepared for the task at hand, but apparently even my electrical wiring expertise has left me clueless! I purchased some LED 3 volt lampposts to add some nice finishing touches on my layout from a vendor from China on eBay. After having issues just getting replacement light bulbs for my Lionel station platforms, I figured I would go to the much more realistic, and hopefully reliable, LED lighting.
Topic

Could Lionel License The Construction And Sale Of A Full Complement Of Super "O" Track To Another Manufacturer?

Dennis GS-4 N & W No. 611 ·
The companion thread includes a compelling case for why a number of hobbyists find Super "O" track to be a very appealing alternative to the other track systems available. Based on the fact that Lionel has not chosen to reissue Super "O" to date, one could logically surmise that this decision is based upon valid business reasons according to their evaluation. Obviously, Super "O" is not everyone's favorite, and those hobbyists would justifiably not be interested in the track system. And, a...
Topic

Utility voltage question for the electrical gurus

George S ·
Hi everyone, I have a question about utility power. I have a number of Lionel PH 180 bricks. When I test these unloaded with my RMS meter, I consistently read 19.1 volts, plus or minus a little. Others using the same bricks are testing them at about 18.2 volts. Does this mean my utility power is a higher voltage than others? If I use a factor for 115 VAC to 18 volts and use the same factor to back calculate 19 volts, I calculate my utility voltage would be 120 VAC. 115 VAC and 120 VAC are...
Topic

Lionel 6-5906, larger wire solves voltage drop

Lou1985 ·
Ever since installing Lionel 6-5906 sound activation buttons on my two main lines I've had a voltage drop between the binding posts on my ZW and the track of about .2 volts under load. I attributed this to the smaller diameter wires on the 6-5906. With the 6-5906 removed and replaced with 14 gauge wire there is no voltage drop at the track. As an experiment tonight I opened up the 6-5906 and replaced the small wires with 14 gauge wires. I reconnected the 6-5906 to the track and checked for...
Reply

Re: Low voltage on output of Lionel 32930 controller

Moonman ·
Do you have a command base? If yes, try setting the ZW ID# to 0, or manual mode. See page 12 of the manual. Hold in program button until light flashes- use remote and press TR >0>SET. The light should stop flashing. Now manually increase the throttle and check the voltage.
Reply

Re: Low voltage on output of Lionel 32930 controller

trainman05760 ·
Tried your suggestion. The controller would not take "0" to place it in manual mode. I did turn the controller on with the legacy base still not turned on. The controller was then in manual mode, but would still only have 16.4 - 17 v on the "A" and "D" output terminals. Faulty controller??
Reply

Re: Low voltage on output of Lionel 32930 controller

Moonman ·
Not sure yet. Did you get the blinking lights when you pressed in the program button? Hook the track wire from the base to the U terminal on the A handle. Legacy base on first, then ZW, then try the manual mode set. Hook the track wire from the base to the U terminal on the A handle. There is a calibration procedure in the manual for the handles. It cautions that it should not be needed, but I did it anyway when I purchased one of these pre-owned. It was an early 1.2 version that had the 1.3...
Reply

Re: QSI Ttian XL smoke unit voltage CVs?

Casey Jones2 ·
The smoke feature operated via a QSI Titan is not supported because MTH holds the patents...hence the reason they state to wire it onto existing function outputs instead of dedicated outputs. Even the firmware doesn't support driving a smoke unit.
Reply

Re: QSI Ttian XL smoke unit voltage CVs?

Keystoned Ed ·
Johnny On Titan QSI decoders the voltage of the rear cab light output is controlled by CV55.118.12. It is an indexed CV which can be set with some degree of complexity using your DCC system's programming capability but indexed CV' are easily set by QSI's CV manager software. For more info on Titan Programming and Indexed CV's scan the DCC reference manual for Quantum 3,2,1 equipped locomotives found on the QSI Solutions web site. The Titan's are unbelievably controllable (and complex!). The...
Reply

Re: QSI Ttian XL smoke unit voltage CVs?

jonnyspeed ·
Thanks Ed. I will look for that document and join the QSI group
Reply

Re: Low voltage on output of Lionel 32930 controller

trainman05760 ·
I tried re-calibration several times as well as hooking up the wire from the base to the U terminal of the A handle. I am still only able to get 16v on the output terminals. Maybe a mechanical engineer shouldn't mess with this electronic stuff!!!!! Thanks for your suggestions. Rich
Reply

Re: Low voltage on output of Lionel 32930 controller

Dale Manquen ·
The ZWC puts some notches in the output waveform to allow for the whistle and bell DC offsets. Perhaps your meter is seeing those notches. Also, there is some voltage drop through the output transistors.
Reply

Re: Low voltage on output of Lionel 32930 controller

gunrunnerjohn ·
There is also some voltage drop going through the output stage I would imagine. It's normal to see around a volt less out of an electronic transformer than goes in.
Reply

Re: Low voltage on output of Lionel 32930 controller

Moonman ·
Trainman, is your meter True RMS? 16.5-16.7 seems about right for 18.8v, if it's not an RMS meter, which is what most of my bricks output reads. I don't even think I lose a quarter of a volt when measured at the track going through the ZW-C. measured with a calibrated Fluke 88.
Reply

Re: Low voltage on output of Lionel 32930 controller

trainman05760 ·
Thanks for all your replies. I didn't realize there would be a 1.5v drop thru the controller. Once, again, a mechanical engineer needs help from those who understand just how the electrons flow!!! Thanks, again Rich
Reply

Re: Need for track voltage regulation with TMCC board and prewar motors

gunrunnerjohn ·
My solution to those issues is to have more power districts fed by 18 volt transformers to spread the load.
Reply

Re: Need for track voltage regulation with TMCC board and prewar motors

Tony_V ·
First, What John said. Simple, the more power feeds you have the less voltage drop you will see around your layout. I use 14 gauge wire from my transformer to my power distribution blocks. From the distribution blocks to the track I use 16 gauge wire with connections about every 5 feet or so. I also don't rely on a switch or cross over to feed power to an adjoining section. I have a PW ZW that I use for my primary power, which is limited to around 18v. And my oldest PW engine runs a fairly...
Reply

Re: Need for track voltage regulation with TMCC board and prewar motors

JohnGaltLine ·
I'm going to have to assume that you are planning on routinely running the prewar trains alongside, and on the same power districts, as the ones with modern electronics, otherwise you could simply use one output set to 18V for the modern engines and adjust a second output as needed for the prewar ones. I can think of two solutions (well, one solution with two ways to get the desired result), neither of which is a ready made product and would require some component level electronics work. I...
Reply

Re: Need for track voltage regulation with TMCC board and prewar motors

cnwdon ·
JGL: thanks for the reply. Complex doesn't scare me (or I wouldn't have started this particular project!) My first/best thought was how can I have something power a SPDT relay to switch the power through a bidirectional (for AC) diode drop with about 3 each 10 amp silicone diodes on each side when voltage exceeds 20 or 21, which would create about a 2v constant drop under load (22 to 20 volts), then when the input voltage gets down to 20v or less the relay goes back to the NC terminals and...
Reply

Re: Need for track voltage regulation with TMCC board and prewar motors

cnwdon ·
Thanks. I do have large wire (12 ga buss fed in center by 14 ga "star" feed for each block), and the voltage drop is with no load other than the COD train, drawing about 2-3 amps because lighting is LEDs. Surprises me too. Since I've invested in MTH and Lionel power supplies for most of my districts, would prefer not to have to sell them off and go to some industrial transformer to lick this! The voltage drop issue is internal to the Z4000, since the measurement is at the output terminals.
Reply

Re: Need for track voltage regulation with TMCC board and prewar motors

JohnGaltLine ·
I like the bi-directional diode idea better than either of the ones that I came up with, actually, as far as dead simple goes. Just keep in mind you are going to need some really big diodes. The benefit of using the load bank would be that it could be made responsive to the change in voltage at the transformer to keep output at exactly 18V (or whatever) where as the diodes would drop in .6 volt steps, or in the simplest form a 2 volt or so jump. As for how to read the transformer voltage, I...
Reply

Re: Need for track voltage regulation with TMCC board and prewar motors

GGG ·
A easier method,, though it should have been done when upgraded is to go with modular TMCC upgrade. You could have used a Engine Mother board with R2LC and an ACDR for the Pre War Motor. You can let AC Track Power directly into the ACDR which is just a H Bridge Triac circuit for controlling the motor. You could have than used a small device to take the High AC input and regulate it down to a constant 16-18VAC and send this to the R2lC mother board. Since the ACDR and the Mother Board only...
Reply

Re: Need for track voltage regulation with TMCC board and prewar motors

JohnGaltLine ·
GGG, modifying the engine electronics was my first thought as well, but it would require that you do the modification to every locomotive you put on the tracks, wouldn't it?
Reply

Re: Need for track voltage regulation with TMCC board and prewar motors

PLCProf ·
With the Z-4000 set to 20 volts at no load, how many amps does it take to pull it down to 16 volts?
Reply

Re: Need for track voltage regulation with TMCC board and prewar motors

cnwdon ·
As noted, the train only draws a couple of amps, so it's not a high load issue. Don Thanks, George. If the Arduino circuit idea from JGL proves unsuccessful for any reason, your idea here would be the best bet. The cost and work of swapping is not extreme. Don I've been intrigued by the Arduino stuff at my electronics store for a couple of years, so it would be fun to use that as the method here. Need to learn about those devices and associated software anyway. Note I already have suitable...
Reply

Re: Need for track voltage regulation with TMCC board and prewar motors

PLCProf ·
I guess that is exactly my point, if a 10% load pulls the transformer voltage down 20% there may be more to the issue than meets the eye! In an attempt to understand this, I would put a fixed load of a few amps on the transformer, maybe some incandescent lights or something, reset the voltage to 20 and try to run the loco again with the fixed load still connected. I am guessing that the voltage soars at no-load, rather than dipping at light load. In that case running a small load...
Reply

Re: Need for track voltage regulation with TMCC board and prewar motors

cnwdon ·
PLC Prof: Thanks. Have used expensive electrician's meter to confirm track voltage. I like your idea re: high volts at no load being part of the issue. Will try a modest incandescent bulb load as baseline and post results.
Reply

Re: Need for track voltage regulation with TMCC board and prewar motors

JohnGaltLine ·
CNWDON, Before getting too far along, after seeing what some other folks have to say, I think it would be a good idea to clearly define the problem, and to insure your track wiring is up to snuff as well, to eliminate that as a problem. George (GGG) also got me thinking with his post on modifying the locomotive and as I think on it, that may be a better way to go depending on exactly what we are dealing with. So, in order to understand exactly what is going on, and what options are available...
Reply

Re: Need for track voltage regulation with TMCC board and prewar motors

GGG ·
My Point was primarily about selecting the proper electronic pack based on what you are modifying. Unique in this case to Lionel and command for AC motors. Airwire as has a board for G with a jumper. The board can't take more than 18VDC for the electronic side, but the motor driver can. So if you only need 18V no problem, but for other model where you might want higher voltage for the motor drive, they can use the jumper. For example 2 12V batteries in series give 24V for the motor drive,...
Reply

Re: Need for track voltage regulation with TMCC board and prewar motors

cnwdon ·
To JGL: Thanks and answers: 1. Is the high voltage reading is simply a 'no-load' condition? Placing big resistors to draw almost 2 amps before train is started does reduce the voltage drop; not quite done testing that, but you have nailed part of the problem with stable voltage. 2. Yes I have ERR electronics inside the pre war locomotive to run it with TMCC. There are 3 of the motors involved, 2 on one TMCC board and one on a second board to run as a lashup. 3. Do you only have the single...
Reply

Re: Need for track voltage regulation with TMCC board and prewar motors

JohnGaltLine ·
Ok, Don. With only the one train to worry about, and only the one track, I think GGG's suggestion of modifying the engine is probably the way to go for simplicity. This would let you drive the motors at 22-24 VAC to get optimal performance out of them. I think George here may have a better understanding of which boards need what voltages, but I'll have a look if you can provide any documentation on exactly what is in these engines. For GGG, is it only the R2lc that has problems with high...
Reply

Re: Need for track voltage regulation with TMCC board and prewar motors

gunrunnerjohn ·
I wouldn't recommend higher voltages on any of the TMCC/Legacy electronics. The only people that can really answer the absolute limits are Lionel, and they've made their statement, 19 VAC maximum.
Reply

Re: Need for track voltage regulation with TMCC board and prewar motors

GGG ·
The DCDR motor driver is a simple device with Triacs, Caps, a few resistors and MOC. No IC chips other than the MOC. The trigger circuit is driven by 5VDC, so as long as the CAP and Triac can handle the voltage all is good. They can, CAPs are 35 or 50 V and the Triacs are 200V if I remember correctly. The R2LC and the RS can't exceed the 19VAC. G
Reply

Re: Need for track voltage regulation with TMCC board and prewar motors

JohnGaltLine ·
I think working around the voltage limitations of the electronics is what we're trying to do at this point. I'll take GGG's word for it on the limits of each of the boards in this case, as it seems reasonable to me. The R2LC and Railsounds boards cant go over 19VAC, but the motor driver DCDR looks good up to at least 35V. I have to assume this is an on board 35VDC, so the max AC would be what... 35 / 1.4141 or 24.7 volts AC on the input. That will be fine with the 22VAC output of a Z4K. So,...
Reply

Re: Need for track voltage regulation with TMCC board and prewar motors

cnwdon ·
Thanks, both of you. To confirm some facts queried above: the motor driver board is ERR Co's as I understand it. The R2LC radio board is a Lionel board, and the RailSounds board I don't know for sure; may be Lionel's. I will email Ken at ERR Co with cc to both of you, and ask if the motor driver board can handle 22v, as is true for Lionel. The general directions for the AC Commander board set is not to exceed 20v, so it's not clear whether the driver board would be an exception. If this is...
Reply

Re: Need for track voltage regulation with TMCC board and prewar motors

GGG ·
An ERR Driver board is different than a Lionel Modular A or DCDR. I am talking about the ACDR/DCDR. G
Reply

Re: Need for track voltage regulation with TMCC board and prewar motors

JohnGaltLine ·
So, it seems the easiest solution would be to acquire a Lionel ACDR? For the more difficult solution we could scratch build a motor driver board JGL
Reply

Re: Z-4000 + Remote Commander Receivers + PS3 Enginesss = Strange Voltage Drop to Zero ?

Pine Creek Railroad ·
Daniel, Got to admit I have only 2 Z4K Transformers with the side receivers at this point, and I am running P2, have no P3 engines, and I have never experienced a problem like you have described, with any of my P2 Engines on the Track. This may very well have to due with your P3 at 4.3 and above. I hope Barry sees your post and can shed some light on how to correct your problem. Marty F & GGG also. I will be very interested in their insights into this problem for sure. PCRR/Dave
Reply

Re: Z-4000 + Remote Commander Receivers + PS3 Enginesss = Strange Voltage Drop to Zero ?

Barry Broskowitz ·
Daniel, Have anybody experienced anything like this ? Yes, frequently in the past. I very, very rarely do a READ (I like all my engines in the Active List). However, I've seen this occur infrequently when doing an ADD ENGINE. There seems to be no distinction between a PS2 or PS3 engine as regards which is being added. I've never seen this happen when moving an engine between the Active and Inactive engine lists, in either direction. I operate exclusively in Super TIU mode. I've discussed...
Reply

Re: Z-4000 + Remote Commander Receivers + PS3 Enginesss = Strange Voltage Drop to Zero ?

Jim Osborne ·
Daniel, Dave and Barry, Thank you for creating and commenting on this thread. I have often experienced this problem with the Z4000 on my test bench. This has occurred with both PS2 and PS3 engines and with both DCS 4.31 and DCS 5.0. I have only the one Z4000 w/ Z4000 Receiver, which as stated before is on my bench I use for my MTH repairs. I have adopted Barry's solution - "I've just learned to live with it, since it's a very infrequent occurrence." If anyone has another solution, I would...
Reply

Re: Z-4000 + Remote Commander Receivers + PS3 Enginesss = Strange Voltage Drop to Zero ?

Pine Creek Railroad ·
Gentlemen, I guess this never happens on our layout because I add my engines via the Green Engine Key not using the ADD Key. PCRR/Dave
Reply

Re: Z-4000 + Remote Commander Receivers + PS3 Enginesss = Strange Voltage Drop to Zero ?

Barry Broskowitz ·
Dave, I guess this never happens on our layout because I add my engines via the Green Engine Key not using the ADD Key. Exactly how do you do that? The only way I know how to add an engine to a remote is to use: Menu/System/Engine Setup/Add Engine.
Reply

Re: Z-4000 + Remote Commander Receivers + PS3 Enginesss = Strange Voltage Drop to Zero ?

GGG ·
Doesn't Engine, SU, Add MTH engine work too? G
Reply

Re: Z-4000 + Remote Commander Receivers + PS3 Enginesss = Strange Voltage Drop to Zero ?

Barry Broskowitz ·
George, What's "SU"? If you mean "S/U", that appears on the Engine List screen, you press ENG:S/U instead of Menu:System:Engine Setup. It's just a shortcut that saves one key press. It goes to the same place to add an engine, follows exactly the same commands to do the add, and makes no difference to DCS.
Reply

Re: Z-4000 + Remote Commander Receivers + PS3 Enginesss = Strange Voltage Drop to Zero ?

Daniel Auger ·
Barry and Jim, Thank you for sharing your similar experience. That is really good to know. Now, at least, we know in which direction to look: i.e. TVZ/TZV "noise". (Both TVZ and TZV are mentioned in Barry`s book. Just a typo, right ?) In our experience, it is always the left side of the Z-4000 going to 0 Volt. The right side of the Z-4000 stays OK with its set voltage. Is your experience the same ? i.e. Only the left side going to 0 volt ? Thanks to all who replied to my post. Daniel P.S.
Reply

Re: Z-4000 + Remote Commander Receivers + PS3 Enginesss = Strange Voltage Drop to Zero ?

Daniel Auger ·
Barry, Do you know if that TVZ/TZV "noise" is produced by the DCS Remote or by the TIU ? They are the only two devices capable of RF signals generation, if I am not missing anything ? Thanks, Daniel
Reply

Re: Z-4000 + Remote Commander Receivers + PS3 Enginesss = Strange Voltage Drop to Zero ?

Barry Broskowitz ·
Daniel, Just a typo, right ? Correct. It's on the "pending corrections list". Do you know if that TVZ/TZV "noise" is produced by the DCS Remote or by the TIU ? That's a very imprecise statement. First, it's not noise. Second, it's a packet-level command, not a DCS (macro-level) command, that's being misinterpreted. Third, it's the remote that's sending packet-level commands to the TIU, which are being picked up and erroneously interpreted by the Z4K Remote Commander receiver, that's attached...
Reply

Re: Z-4000 + Remote Commander Receivers + PS3 Enginesss = Strange Voltage Drop to Zero ?

Jim Osborne ·
Daniel, I have also only noticed the problem on the left side of my Z4000. Then main reason is that this is the side that my DCS / TIU test track is connected to, Jim
Reply

Re: Z-4000 + Remote Commander Receivers + PS3 Enginesss = Strange Voltage Drop to Zero ?

Daniel Auger ·
Hi Barry, "... it's the remote that's sending packet-level commands to the TIU, which are being picked up and erroneously interpreted by the Z4K Remote Commander receiver, that's attached to the Z4000..." OK, the term "noise" is not exact, I agree. Would replacing "noise" by "misinterpreted TZV-alike packets" be better ? Thanks, Daniel
Reply

Re: Z-4000 + Remote Commander Receivers + PS3 Enginesss = Strange Voltage Drop to Zero ?

Barry Broskowitz ·
Daniel, Would replacing "noise" by "misinterpreted TZV-alike packets" be better ? It is what it is...
 
OGR Publishing, Inc., 1310 Eastside Centre Ct, Suite 6, Mountain Home, AR 72653
330-757-3020

www.ogaugerr.com
×
×
×
×
×