0-72 Minimum curve layout ideas for a smaller space

Here's a simple plan I just drew using Atlas 072 curves and turnouts:

The track at top and bottom is very close to the edge.

Not only are the tracks at top and bottom too close to the bench-work edge, but the mainline is way too close to the yard track.  Any engine of good size entering the reverse loop by switching to the left is probably going to side-swipe any car on the yard track near that switch.

Chuck

Limited space is going to be a problem using ten 21" passenger cars is that those alone are 17 1/2 feet or cars. That would be close to 50% of your largest loop.

Also, does your 7 1/2' by 12 1/2' account for any 'people" access? doorway, center layout access (7 1/2 feet is too wide to access all of that width), engineer space?

Here is an 8 X 16 modular layout, which could be scaled-down to 7.5 X 12.   Obviously no problems with access or reach.  The outside route is O-72 Fastrack, the inside route is O-60.   Of course it could be redesigned for Atlas-O.  What do you think?

What about doors and access to your space?  Or is this a space within a larger room?

TM Terry posted:

Limited space is going to be a problem using ten 21" passenger cars is that those alone are 17 1/2 feet or cars. That would be close to 50% of your largest loop.

Also, does your 7 1/2' by 12 1/2' account for any 'people" access? doorway, center layout access (7 1/2 feet is too wide to access all of that width), engineer space?

Yes, the dimensions account for access as this is in a garage where things go in and out often.

Edit: the unfortunate thing is the garage is the only place I can put the layout because no room in my house (2400 sq ft) can fit anything bigger than 4ft by 9ft.

Ken-Oscale posted:

Here is an 8 X 16 modular layout, which could be scaled-down to 7.5 X 12.   Obviously no problems with access or reach.  The outside route is O-72 Fastrack, the inside route is O-60.   Of course it could be redesigned for Atlas-O.  What do you think?

What about doors and access to your space?  Or is this a space within a larger room?

I like it, but it would need to be reworked to incorporate a coach yard and engine facility.

Gensis, what does "coach yard and engine facility" mean to you?   Or, looking at Bob's draft plan above, I see three sidings.   Is that what you are looking for?   With a diesel fueling stand?

Ken-Oscale posted:

Gensis, what does "coach yard and engine facility" mean to you?   Or, looking at Bob's draft plan above, I see three sidings.   Is that what you are looking for?   With a diesel fueling stand?

Coach yard means space to accommodate 11-12 21" passenger cars and engine facility means space to accommodate 4-7 diesels at a time.

The first suggestion was somewhat what I was looking for, yes. 

You might have room for 2, maybe 3, 21" cars and 1 engine in the space given, that's it.

Turnouts/switches take up a load of real estate.

My current layout is approx. 12x12 with a 2-3x14 extension down one side:

Anything over a 5-car passenger train doesn't look good.  Freight trains are usually less than 10 cars.  I have no yard on the present layout, but soon I plan on expanding to this:

This will be my "dream" layout and most likely my last.  It will occupy the entire upstairs.

My 6-car GGD Silver Meteor is gonna look good riding these rails!  The mainline is 49.5" radius curves (099) 2-rail and all Battery-powered, Remote-controlled.  The only wiring MAY be building lights and the turntable.  I may get froggy and power a couple of the turnouts, but I kinda like throwing them by hand.

Bob Delbridge posted:

You might have room for 2, maybe 3, 21" cars and 1 engine in the space given, that's it.

Turnouts/switches take up a load of real estate.

My current layout is approx. 12x12 with a 2-3x14 extension down one side:

Anything over a 5-car passenger train doesn't look good.  Freight trains are usually less than 10 cars.  I have no yard on the present layout, but soon I plan on expanding to this:

This will be my "dream" layout and most likely my last.  It will occupy the entire upstairs.

My 6-car GGD Silver Meteor is gonna look good riding these rails!  The mainline is 49.5" radius curves (099) 2-rail and all Battery-powered, Remote-controlled.  The only wiring MAY be building lights and the turntable.  I may get froggy and power a couple of the turnouts, but I kinda like throwing them by hand.

That's a shame. I guess I'll just have to go to a local club then because I refuse to settle for MTH's inferior Superliners. 18" and plastic? No thanks.

I hear ya.  The 21" cars take a lot of room, but they sure look good going around a big curve.  I'd go even bigger than 099 on my new layout but just don't have the room (and still keep other things I want).

I have run my 21" cars on 49.5" radius curves and to me they look fine with a slight overhang.

Perhaps something along these lines using Atlas-O may serve:

• The outside main loop is O-81 with O-90 easements.
• The inside main is O-72 with O-81 easements.
• The mains are connected by #5 cross-overs.
• All other turnouts are O-72
• The coach yard curves are O-63 (I saw on Lionel's site that their 21" passenger cars can run on O-54)
• The engine facility is O-72 turnouts with one O-72 curve
• Access into the layout is through two lift-out bridges
• 4.5" parallel track centers

Or this version:

Here, the coach yard curves are O-81, O-72, and O-63 for the outside to inside storage tracks.

Ken-Oscale posted:

Or this version:

Here, the coach yard curves are O-81, O-72, and O-63 for the outside to inside storage tracks.

This could definitely work and I love the double track main. Switching consists around looks like it would be a lot of fun with this track plan as having good switching options is necessary because I'll be using cabcars and one or more of Lionel's Cabbage F40 NPCUs, meaning they have to be switched and coupled a certain way in order to not look weird. 

Thanks for your help I'm definitely thinking about using this. I also remeasured and found that I have 8ftx14ft to work with so any bigger modifications are doable.

Also Ken if you could post the part list for the track so I can get to ordering that would be great.

Well, if you have 8X14, this layout plan could be expanded to triple-track.   Would that be of interest to you?

The plan has no way to turn trains or locomotives - is that a problem?   

You can use the main line cross-overs to "run-around" cars if necessary - is that capability needed for your operations?

Ken-Oscale posted:

Well, if you have 8X14, this layout plan could be expanded to triple-track.   Would that be of interest to you?

The plan has no way to turn trains or locomotives - is that a problem?   

You can use the main line cross-overs to "run-around" cars if necessary - is that capability needed for your operations?

Triple track is tempting but I'd probably stay double tracked in order to keep costs down. It's also more realistic to do double track as there are very few triple track sections for what I'm trying to somewhat loosely model. I've only seen 1 small section from outside Los Angeles to Fullerton and it stops there. Turning isn't 100% necessary as I'll have Legacy Amtrak Cabbages for push pull and everything else that isn't push pull should be easy to move and shuffle around. The crossovers are perfect for consist switching as I'm highly considering snagging a Nicholas Smith Amtrak 44-tonner before they disappear and skyrocket in price. If I wanted to stretch to 14' I'd probably add length to the mainlines as trains of 21" cars get very long as one user has already posted in this thread. 

Thanks for your help. A complete tracklist would be much appreciated.

OK, so I have attached a simple expansion to 8 X 14.   If this looks good I will post the track list for you.

Genisis, I was concerned a bit about the reverse curve on the inside coach storage track, so I replaced it with a more gradual curve with O-81 1/3 sections.

Here's the Amtrak service facility at 2472 E 8th St, Los Angeles This would need the Atlas #5's turnouts.

I think you could get away with two lines for the service area, instead of 4.

Compressing the length is the issue, as indicated by TM Terry.

Also, about 86" wide would be needed for O72/O81 concentric curves at 4.5" centers.

Which service location do you want to model?

Moonman posted:

Here's the Amtrak service facility at 2472 E 8th St, Los Angeles This would need the Atlas #5's turnouts.

I think you could get away with two lines for the service area, instead of 4.

Compressing the length is the issue, as indicated by TM Terry.

Also, about 86" wide would be needed for O72/O81 concentric curves at 4.5" centers.

Which service location do you want to model?

I'm trying to model Los Angeles as that's the closest one to me. I'm perfectly ok with cutting corners just has to somewhat represent it. It would make sense as I'm trying to grab a Sunset 3rd Rail Hi Level lounge to repaint into Coast Starlight colors, and you can't have a Coast Starlight without either terminus.

I would like to have more than 2 lines because I may have up to 4-7 engines on the track at the same time (example: 2 or more P42s, at least 1 F59PHI, and a couple switchers).

Ken-Oscale posted:

Genisis, I was concerned a bit about the reverse curve on the inside coach storage track, so I replaced it with a more gradual curve with O-81 1/3 sections.

Looks great! I think this could be a final version, barring anything else others recommend.

Updated:  Great!   Here is the list of track needed:

• Track
  6011, 0 Atlas 3-Rail Nickel Silver Track, Curve radius 40 1/2" (O-81), angle 22.5º           20
  6012, 0 Atlas 3-Rail Nickel Silver Track, Curve radius 40 1/2" (O-81), angle 7.5º               4
  6013, 0 Atlas 3-Rail Nickel Silver Track, Curve radius 45" (O-90), angle 22.5º                   4
  6015, 0 Atlas 3-Rail Nickel Silver Track, Straight 1 1/4".                                                     12
  6024, 0 Atlas 3-Rail Nickel Silver Track, Left turnout 20".#5                                                2
  6025, 0 Atlas 3-Rail Nickel Silver Track, Right turnout 20".#5                                              2
  6050, 0 Atlas 3-Rail Nickel Silver Track, Straight 10".                                                          26
  6051, 0 Atlas 3-Rail Nickel Silver Track, Straight 4 1/2".                                                       8
  6052, 0 Atlas 3-Rail Nickel Silver Track, Straight 1 3/4".                                                     15
  6053, 0 Atlas 3-Rail Nickel Silver Track, Straight 5 1/2".                                                       8
  6058, 0 Atlas 3-Rail Nickel Silver Track, Straight 40".                                                            1
  6062, 0 Atlas 3-Rail Nickel Silver Track, Curve radius 36" (O-72), angle 22.5º                 17
  6064, 0 Atlas 3-Rail Nickel Silver Track, Curve radius 31 1/2" (O-63), angle 22.5º             3
  6072, 0 Atlas 3-Rail Nickel Silver Track, Left turnout 14 1/2". O-72                                    5
  6073, 0 Atlas 3-Rail Nickel Silver Track, Right turnout 14 1/2". O-72                                  1
  6081, 0 Atlas 3-Rail Nickel Silver Track, Crossing 45º                                                           1

Ken-Oscale posted:

Great!   Here is the list of track needed:

• Track
  6011, 0 Atlas 3-Rail Nickel Silver Track, Curve radius 40 1/2" (O-81), angle 22.5º           20
  6012, 0 Atlas 3-Rail Nickel Silver Track, Curve radius 40 1/2" (O-81), angle 7.5º               4
  6013, 0 Atlas 3-Rail Nickel Silver Track, Curve radius 45" (O-90), angle 22.5º                   4
  6015, 0 Atlas 3-Rail Nickel Silver Track, Straight 1 1/4".                                                     11
  6024, 0 Atlas 3-Rail Nickel Silver Track, Left turnout 20".#5                                                2
  6025, 0 Atlas 3-Rail Nickel Silver Track, Right turnout 20".#5                                              2
  6050, 0 Atlas 3-Rail Nickel Silver Track, Straight 10".                                                          23
  6051, 0 Atlas 3-Rail Nickel Silver Track, Straight 4 1/2".                                                       8
  6052, 0 Atlas 3-Rail Nickel Silver Track, Straight 1 3/4".                                                     13
  6053, 0 Atlas 3-Rail Nickel Silver Track, Straight 5 1/2".                                                       8
  6056, 0 Atlas 3-Rail Nickel Silver Track, Flex 39 7/32". (straight)                                         1
  6058, 0 Atlas 3-Rail Nickel Silver Track, Straight 40".                                                            1
  6062, 0 Atlas 3-Rail Nickel Silver Track, Curve radius 36" (O-72), angle 22.5º                 17
  6064, 0 Atlas 3-Rail Nickel Silver Track, Curve radius 31 1/2" (O-63), angle 22.5º             3
  6072, 0 Atlas 3-Rail Nickel Silver Track, Left turnout 14 1/2". O-72                                    5
  6073, 0 Atlas 3-Rail Nickel Silver Track, Right turnout 14 1/2". O-72                                  1
  6081, 0 Atlas 3-Rail Nickel Silver Track, Crossing 45º                                                           1
• There is one section of flex track, which is actually straight track.  Instead of flex, I would buy a 40" straight section and cut it to fit.

Could I get away with just using the flex track? I'm wary of cutting things. 

Well, you would have to cut/trim the flex track anyway.

This will work: replace the one flex piece with three 10 inch straights, two 1/75 inch, and one 1.25 inch.  I have updated the parts list above.

Ken-Oscale posted:

Well, you would have to cut/trim the flex track anyway.

This will work: replace the one flex piece with three 10 inch straights, two 1/75 inch, and one 1.25 inch.  I have updated the parts list above.

Thank you. That makes it a lot easier as I'm just a kid and I'm building this entire thing myself. My dad built my first layout, and this is in honor of him. 

Good luck GenisisFan99, this layout should go together easily, and a great way to honor your dad!  Let me know if you have any questions on the track plan.   This forum is a great place for help on other topics as well.    -Ken

GenesisFan99 posted:

Ken-Oscale posted:

Well, you would have to cut/trim the flex track anyway.

This will work: replace the one flex piece with three 10 inch straights, two 1/75 inch, and one 1.25 inch.  I have updated the parts list above.

Thank you. That makes it a lot easier as I'm just a kid and I'm building this entire thing myself. My dad built my first layout, and this is in honor of him. 

Atlas O flex track doesn't bend easily. Try to use sectional curves or cut curves and straights. There is a tie end piece that one uses after cutting track.

Carl, I replaced the flex with sectional in the discussion just above.   So no flex in the plan, all sectional.

-Ken

Ok I'm back with electrical questions. So for a track plan of that size and long scale passenger cars (meaning lots of lights), what sort of transformer would I need? I was thinking Z4000 or ZW-L but I'm unsure of how to wire it all together. I know I will probably need one of MTH's accessory blocks to hook up buildings and stuff, but for the track how would I wire it all together, especially if I'm using Atlas? For sure I'll have a Legacy and DCS system on the layout, which I know changes things a little. 

I can't recommend power for your layout because that is beyond my expertice but it certainly will depend on how many engines you will operate at the same time and the number and type of accessories you will have as well. Passenger cars with the incandescent lights can draw a lot of power but installing leds with special boards can reduce power requirements. I will rely on the forum electrical experts to help you on that. 

But this is what I have. I have about 320 ft.of atlas track with most fixed curves 072, a few fixed curves  081 and several areas with larger radii curves using flex track.  I have 2.25 percent grades.  I use a single KW with cab 1 remote control. All my locos are TMCC with only one that is a Legacy engine.  I don't run more than one engine at a time and I have removed the rollers on my passenger cars. The transformer is working well and I have several powered atlas turnouts connected to the KW.  I do not light my buildings and don't have other operating accessories wired at this time.  So, I would have to add a transformer for those. About 12 years ago I disconnected the power to the Lionel signals ( about 6 or so) I had on my layout, and eventually replaced most of them with PRR style signal head poles and towers that are not lighted. Maybe someday I will add the lights.

FWIW, I like Ken's track plan development.  It is interesting and is not cluttered with track. And, I think it would be great to see lights from block signals, and so forth.  Hope to see your progress soon. 

Gentlemen,

   As usual Ken's Engineering planning is top shelf, not only does he give Carl a full engineering outlay, he supplies the exact track piece listing, needed to completely build the layout.  

Ken I said this before, you are the best layout engineering planner around.

Merry Christmas buddy.

PCRR/Dave

Thanks for your kind comments Dave!   Merry Christmas to you and yours!  -Ken

Same track plans as above, with more labels and example track base/platform.

pennsynut posted:

I can't recommend power for your layout because that is beyond my expertice but it certainly will depend on how many engines you will operate at the same time and the number and type of accessories you will have as well. Passenger cars with the incandescent lights can draw a lot of power but installing leds with special boards can reduce power requirements. I will rely on the forum electrical experts to help you on that. 

But this is what I have. I have about 320 ft.of atlas track with most fixed curves 072, a few fixed curves  081 and several areas with larger radii curves using flex track.  I have 2.25 percent grades.  I use a single KW with cab 1 remote control. All my locos are TMCC with only one that is a Legacy engine.  I don't run more than one engine at a time and I have removed the rollers on my passenger cars. The transformer is working well and I have several powered atlas turnouts connected to the KW.  I do not light my buildings and don't have other operating accessories wired at this time.  So, I would have to add a transformer for those. About 12 years ago I disconnected the power to the Lionel signals ( about 6 or so) I had on my layout, and eventually replaced most of them with PRR style signal head poles and towers that are not lighted. Maybe someday I will add the lights.

FWIW, I like Ken's track plan development.  It is interesting and is not cluttered with track. And, I think it would be great to see lights from block signals, and so forth.  Hope to see your progress soon. 

I figure I'll need something more than a KW as K-Line Streamlighting eats power from what I hear. 10 Superliners alone is a fair amount of power draw, not to mention the fact that I'll be running up to 5 engines at a time with the current track plan.

For a sense of perspective, here is how it might look with some trains:

Ken-Oscale posted:

For a sense of perspective, here is how it might look with some trains:

If those passenger cars are 21" cars, it really looks like I can do exactly what I wanted to with this plan. Engine facility tracks are great, I'd have a couple MTH P42s, a 44-tonner, and an MP15AC at most on those tracks. 1 or 2 for motive power, rest switchers to assemble consists. Other consists such as Surfliner would either be on outside track running or in storage, so it all works out.

Here is an alternative arrangement.  It has a yard lead (O-72) and a more conventional plan.   Coupling of long passenger cars is easier on the straight sidings.   A bit less storage for cars but perhaps a bit more for locos.

Slight variation allows a bit more for coach yard - now 10 coaches.

Curving the coach yard tracks adds room for one more car: 11 coaches.

Ken-Oscale posted:

Curving the coach yard tracks adds room for one more car: 11 coaches.

The variations are definitely something to think about. I think I might stick with the original plan because the 45 degree crossing makes it a bit more interesting imho (not that the variations are boring at all). 

As others have said, you are really good at track plans. If it's alright with you, I would love to refer anyone who has track plan questions to you. Every once in a while we get people who come into the shop looking for FasTrack, but have no clear track plan. 

After a bit of optimizing to reduce the number of sections, and with no flex-track and no custom-cut sections, here is the list of track needed:

• 6011, 0 Atlas 3-Rail Nickel Silver Track, Curve radius 40 1/2" (O-81), angle 22.5º              20
• 6012, 0 Atlas 3-Rail Nickel Silver Track, Curve radius 40 1/2" (O-81), angle 7.5º                  4
• 6013, 0 Atlas 3-Rail Nickel Silver Track, Curve radius 45" (O-90), angle 22.5º                      4
• 6062, 0 Atlas 3-Rail Nickel Silver Track, Curve radius 36" (O-72), angle 22.5º                     17
• 6064, 0 Atlas 3-Rail Nickel Silver Track, Curve radius 31 1/2" (O-63), angle 22.5º                 3

• 6015, 0 Atlas 3-Rail Nickel Silver Track, Straight 1 1/4".                                                        14
• 6050, 0 Atlas 3-Rail Nickel Silver Track, Straight 10".                                                             22
• 6051, 0 Atlas 3-Rail Nickel Silver Track, Straight 4 1/2".                                                        13
• 6052, 0 Atlas 3-Rail Nickel Silver Track, Straight 1 3/4".                                                           8
• 6053, 0 Atlas 3-Rail Nickel Silver Track, Straight 5 1/2".                                                           7
• 6058, 0 Atlas 3-Rail Nickel Silver Track, Straight 40".                                                                2
  
  6081, 0 Atlas 3-Rail Nickel Silver Track, Crossing 45º                                                                 1
• 6024, 0 Atlas 3-Rail Nickel Silver Track, Left turnout 20".#5                                                   2
• 6025, 0 Atlas 3-Rail Nickel Silver Track, Right turnout 20".#5                                                 2
• 6072, 0 Atlas 3-Rail Nickel Silver Track, Left turnout 14 1/2". O-72                                         5
• 6073, 0 Atlas 3-Rail Nickel Silver Track, Right turnout 14 1/2". O-72                                       1

I increased the size of the connections between sections (circles) for visibility:

Thanks for your kind comments!   Yes, you can refer folks looking for a track plan to me.   I like to take on challenges that are new or interesting in some way, but I also enjoy adapting existing designs.    --Ken

Back again with more questions. I recently had a rude awakening that product I purchased may only function under command control. So after reading a bit, I'm curious how Legacy and TMCC are wired. Is it just the 1 ground wire from the base to one outside rail or are there more things involved? I thought I read somewhere Legacy and TMCC require a special wall outlet or something. 

I also was curious what you all used for your benchwork and, if you're comfortable sharing, roughly how much the raw materials costed. I know the best benchwork allows for a person to stand on it without issues. As this is 8x14, I figure I will need a bit beefier materials, but I know little about benchwork. I'm about 150 lbs, so I want to be able to walk across the benchwork without fear of breaking anything. Overkill is fine so long as it doesn't break the bank too much, though this project will pretty much kill my wallet already, lol. Anyways, recommendations are much appreciated.

For those of you who helped kick-start this project, thank you. I know you want to see progress but a lot needs to get done first. I have measured and re-measured 3 times and the space is available. However, I'm now finding out the garage has a serious spider problem and some may be venomous, so the garage needs to be bombed a few times and the aftermath cleaned up before anything else happens. Definitely don't want any abnormally large arachnids on my layout terrorizing passengers. After that, a workbench and a couple cabinets need to be moved to the other side of the garage. Once that all gets done I just need to come up with the cash. This will be a slow but rewarding process. I will post updates on my YouTube channel as the project progresses. I really do appreciate all the help and I hope to break ground soon.

Benchwork: lots of options.   Most of the track is within a 30" reach.   You can see that the area under the mountain is the longest reach.   So you have a couple of choices:   build a benchwork strong enough to get up on for the areas beneath the yards running to the wall.   Or work in a hidden access behind or inside the mountain to access the mainlines.   The rest of the layout is within reach, so it does not have to be so sturdy.

My recommendation (though there are certainly other opinions and other good approaches) is to use 2" foam sheets, cut to fit, and supported with 1X4s or 2X2s.   With access in the corners, open or inside the mountain.   You could even use folding tables of identical height to support the foam sheets.   Quick and easy and convenient.

The more expensive option is to use 2X4s and 1X4s to build a support structure for 3/4" plywood that will support your weight.   As a young guy you are probably comfortable climbing on top of a table, but not an option for me.

Yes, command control wiring is easy.   There has been a recommendation to wire a ground connection for command control, and if you build a mountain using wire screen for the terrain support structure, then ground that wire screen.   See the other threads for more details and discussion.   If you make your terrain out of foam, then you probably will not need to worry about running a ground wire (underneath the table), but it would not hurt.

@genesis99:

I believe TMCC has only the ground, if I recall correctly the actual command control signal goes through the house wiring. DCS puts the command control signal through the middle rail. I am curious when you say you have equipment that only runs command control, as far as I know both DCS and TMCC/Legacy equipped engines work with conventional control as well, the only command-control like system that doesn't support conventional is Lionchief, which doesn't use the rails at all, it is direct radio control (lionchief plus supports conventional operation). 

One thing that has been suggested to me (I am in the early planning phases of my own project) is if you are even thinking of using command control, to keep that in mind even if wiring for conventional control now. So wire a ground wire under the table/track, ground metal mesh in a mountain, wire blocks with a future eye towards command control. Never hurts to read up on how it is wired, instructions can be found on the manufacturers sites or other places, worthwhile looking at how they work and wiring with an eye to that, even though you can retrofit it pretty easily. 

As far as the time goes don't worry, I am in the same boat, has taken me many years just to get to the point where I am close to starting, having to get my basement space ready with little spare time, lots of things to do, lack of resources, etc, so I am in the same boat. And the nice part when people put up their ideas for layouts and/or ask for help, is how it helps others. My space is roughly the same as yours (mine will be roughly 9x13), and some of the layout ideas posted in this thread have been really useful to me, my own layout design will be influenced by some of the early designs with my own variations of the elements. 

GenesisFan99 posted:

Back again with more questions. I recently had a rude awakening that product I purchased may only function under command control. So after reading a bit, I'm curious how Legacy and TMCC are wired. Is it just the 1 ground wire from the base to one outside rail or are there more things involved? I thought I read somewhere Legacy and TMCC require a special wall outlet or something. 

 

Genesis;

Not sure what the product you purchased is, but you should probably check out the manual (I know, real men don't need instructions, but sometimes it does help ) - most TMCC/Legacy engines I've purchased do have the capability of running in conventional mode, usually by a switch somewhere on the engine. 

As for the wiring, you are correct, the Cab1 (TMCC) and Cab2 (Legacy) bases require one additional wire to one of the outside rails. But you need to keep in mind that, if you hook up TMCC/Legacy, you can not run conventional without some intervention. As my title below suggests, I admit to being a techno-peasant, so I am not the one to discuss running conventional engines on a TMCC/Legacy track (suffice to say some of the modern Lionel power sources have a switch which allows you to run TMCC/Legacy OR conventional).

On the subject of your arachnid problem, if you can't displace them, you could always build a Lavalantula layout!!!

Best of luck with your new layout.

Apples55 posted:

GenesisFan99 posted:

Back again with more questions. I recently had a rude awakening that product I purchased may only function under command control. So after reading a bit, I'm curious how Legacy and TMCC are wired. Is it just the 1 ground wire from the base to one outside rail or are there more things involved? I thought I read somewhere Legacy and TMCC require a special wall outlet or something. 

 

Genesis;

Not sure what the product you purchased is, but you should probably check out the manual (I know, real men don't need instructions, but sometimes it does help ) - most TMCC/Legacy engines I've purchased do have the capability of running in conventional mode, usually by a switch somewhere on the engine. 

As for the wiring, you are correct, the Cab1 (TMCC) and Cab2 (Legacy) bases require one additional wire to one of the outside rails. But you need to keep in mind that, if you hook up TMCC/Legacy, you can not run conventional without some intervention. As my title below suggests, I admit to being a techno-peasant, so I am not the one to discuss running conventional engines on a TMCC/Legacy track (suffice to say some of the modern Lionel power sources have a switch which allows you to run TMCC/Legacy OR conventional).

On the subject of your arachnid problem, if you can't displace them, you could always build a Lavalantula layout!!!

Best of luck with your new layout.

The product I purchased was a Lionel F40PH Cabbage. Dave Olson himself ran tests for me on a unit at Lionel and determined that the locomotive was not supposed to run in conventional, as it doesn't know what direction it's traveling. Once I get the funds I won't be too concerned about conventional.

It seems wiring isn't as complicated as I thought. Now I like overkill so as to not allow problems to arise, so I feel like 12 gauge wire would be good for feeding the track. What does everyone else think?

GenesisFan99 posted:

It seems wiring isn't as complicated as I thought. Now I like overkill so as to not allow problems to arise, so I feel like 12 gauge wire would be good for feeding the track. What does everyone else think?

That's a new one on me... I thought all Lionel engines could run in conventional mode - live and learn!!!

As for wiring, I'm sure the more electrically inclined among us will chime in, but I think 12 gauge is a bit light for feeders. I used 16 gauge (OGR wire) on a 14'x16' layout and have had no issues.

Apples55 posted:

GenesisFan99 posted:

It seems wiring isn't as complicated as I thought. Now I like overkill so as to not allow problems to arise, so I feel like 12 gauge wire would be good for feeding the track. What does everyone else think?

That's a new one on me... I thought all Lionel engines could run in conventional mode - live and learn!!!

As for wiring, I'm sure the more electrically inclined among us will chime in, but I think 12 gauge is a bit light for feeders. I used 16 gauge (OGR wire) on a 14'x16' layout and have had no issues.

Genesis;

Is your engine 6-82457??? If so, the manual says it will run in conventional - see pg. 6 of the manual. I am quite sure Dave has forgotten more about these engines than I will ever know, but maybe there was some misunderstanding.

Hi Mr. Ken-Oscale,

I'm just getting into this hobby, and looking to build a layout for my family before the holidays. Obviously with being new to this, probably wont be complete before the holidays but want to get as much done as possible. I saw this layout that you posted and I'm very interested  in it.

You mentioned this could be scaled down to 7.5 X 12, while still using 060 & 072 radius Fastrack curves, which would be perfect for the spare room I will be building this in. Would it be possible to get a copy of the scaled down version of this plan, along with listing of Fastrack that is needed?

If you have any suggestions/tips on building this plan or any other facets of this hobby, I'm all ears as I mentioned, I'm new to this.

Thank you and have a safe and Happy Thanksgiving!

Steven -

Welcome Steven.  I'm not Ken but I'm a life-long O gauger living in the Land of No Basements and I feel compelled to weigh in.  It's my opinion that if you're building a spare room-sized railroad and you want something that will provide varied operation long-term, you would be better off using sharper curves.  IMO in a room that size, probably no bigger than O42.

It's true that you won't be able to run many of the coveted scale locos like Berkshires and articulateds.  (And that might actually save you money in the long run!)  But if you do build with O60 and O72, the only track plan that will work is some variation of a double-oval.  And really, just an extended circle, because curves that wide won't leave much left for the straightaways.  If you just want a stubby test loop to run and photograph trains from a closet collection, I guess that's ok.  But for all of the money, time, and effort involved in constructing a good layout, I strongly encourage you to imagine the more interactive track plans you would be able to build by using O31 or O42 instead.

Years ago I would have endorsed the wider curves because the scale-sized locos tended to run more smoothly than the toy trains we grew up with.  Now, we have RailKing with PS3 and LionChief Plus, so that's no longer the case.  This hobby is full of compromises, notably the third rail itself.  And if you must have a "scale model," many switchers, Moguls, Ten Wheelers, etc., are scale-sized and will still run on sharper curves.  Everything about tradtional-sized trains (including Plasticville buildings, shorter rolling stock, etc.) is optimized for a smaller space.  Honestly, if I hadn't been in O gauge all my life, I would build in S because 3/16" scale is still big enough to see and work on, but closer to optimum for an 8' x 12' space.

Everyone brings their own experience to the hobby.  For years I participated in modular public displays.  Personally, I'm done with round-and-round running.  Some people just enjoy building layouts; for me it's about what you can do with the trains after it's built.  I'm not going to put a lot of time and effort into something that's going to leave me bored and collect dust after the first 6 months.  It's your time and money, think hard!

Hi Ted,

Thank you for your reply and for welcoming me to this forum. Yes, I understand your point of view and considered what you suggested, and also considered S scale as well as HO, in the idea of getting the most out of an 8X12 layout. Still, I keep coming back to the fact that I do like the 18" Aluminum Passenger Cars from K-Line and the Scale GG1.

Yes, for some, the double or even triple extended circle may be boring and may not get complete satisfaction from it, but, I came across this layout that Ken-Oscale had posted and I thought it would be a good place for me to start, and it uses the 060 & 072 curves needed to run the scale GG1 and 18" passenger cars. Perhaps down the road when more space is available I can go into something bigger and more complex, but for the time being this seemed like a good fit for me.

@PennDoggieExpress I think that is a great plan designed by  @Ken-Oscale that will suit your desires.  There are about as many ways to enjoy the hobby as there are hobbyists. 

Welcome to the hobby and the O Gauge Railroading Forum!!  Bring up any questions you have on this thread or start your own threads with short, but descriptive titles for specific needs.

@PennDoggieExpress. Welcome Steven. I was really confused reading the earler posts from 2017. There are many folks who will help. I suggest  starting a new post with a title asking for help on your new layout named 'whatever you want'. That way everyone can easily see the contributions being made for your railroad. It can be amazing how fast the page count builds.