These are the things we need to know and learn, so when thinking of purchasing one, we know if our layout supports it. I personally run a Z4000 and a ROW 400 transformer with a Z250 for accessories.
The club layout, where 2 members who purchased one will run it, is strictly powered by Z4000, MRC and Z1000, Z750.
@Craftech posted:1. Turned up the track voltage on my tubular track layout (measured with an AC voltmeter) with KW throttle till it read 18v center to outside rail.
2. Placed engine on track and plugged in KW. Engine started.
3. Turned on remote. Light came on, sound level adjusted with remote volume control.
4. Moved forward no problem, ran a few feet, and then it tripped the circuit breaker I have in line with rails. The breaker is rated at 7.5A (Sensata breaker).
5. Disconnected everything except power to a single lockon. Same thing after a few feet.
6. Turned voltage down to around 16v. Tripped the breaker after short run again.
7. Connected different accessory terminals to track, but I could not get a reading on my voltmeter at the track so I was afraid to try the engine that way. I have never connected the accessory terminals to the track before anyway.
8. Next step is to make a circle with some Menards tubular track, connect power to it, and try it again. If that doesn't work I will get an 18v DC power supply and try that on my tubular track. Positive to center rail, negative to one of the outside rails.\
John
I suspect a momentary short that happens when engine moves. Check wires to the trucks for abrasions or missing heat shrink tubing. Or a pickup rollers are unevenly round or holder warpped and touching the truck frame.
@rrman posted:I suspect a momentary short that happens when engine moves. Check wires to the trucks for abrasions or missing heat shrink tubing. Or a pickup rollers are unevenly round or holder warpped and touching the truck frame.
I'll probably do that tomorrow. What I did so far was done in a rush which is not how I like to work. But thanks for the advice. I think a separate track setup is a better bet for a fair evaluation. I have a lot of those breakers as well as TVS diodes to protect the Menards engine. The breakers pop immediately whenever there is a short (derailment). Great peace of mind.
But I may use a laptop DC power supply connected to tubular track first. Works great on my grandson's Lion Chief Fastrack setup - better than the wall wart it came with. I would test it on his layout, but he lives 2 hours from me and I am pretty sure others are testing it with similar setups.
So angry at our loathsome post office. Following the tracking it seems my diesel went from the airport distribution center to a neighboring post office to my post office and then back to the neighboring post office. And now its back at the distribution center. Grrrr!
I received my Sante Fe F3 today. The loco powers up and makes sounds. However when I opened the remote to put the 3 AAA batteries in I found that there were no positive battery contacts installed in the remote so it won’t work. Definitely some QC problems related to the remote. I guess I have to figure out how to get a RMA to return it to Menards.
@Landsteiner posted:"And a big price jump compared to the other LionChief diesels too."
Those diesels Norton is linking to aren't LionChief, they are LionChief + 2.0. Unlike simple LionChief (and the Menard's loco), they operate in conventional, Bluetooth, LionChief and TMCC modes. They have more scale details, electrocouplers, full Railsounds, etc. They are more like a TMCC loco from some years ago, or even Legacy than resembling a LionChief loco. Apples and oranges
. $200 street price (single loco) vs. $600 (and that's for an A-A or A-B pair). I know people get a lot of pleasure at pointing out Lionel's "exorbitant prices," but let's try to be accurate and fair
My apologies, I was comparing those F3's to the RS3's, which apparently still have the original LionChief. However I will disagree on the part about detail, because those F3's are (for the most part) still the traditional Postwar F3's. Plus, the second locomotive is a dummy, so I'm not sure how much of a price jump that warrants, especially up to $600-700.
OK, mine arrived this afternoon. I only had enough time to test run it, but here are some supplemental observations on top of what has already been revealed by forum members who also purchased these.
First, it does appear to be an FP7, minus the four louvers that are a telltale sign of such cab units from EMD. I checked dimensional data from Model Railroader Cyclopedia Volume 2 Diesel Locomotives to confirm the length coupler face to face (54’ 8”). Because O gauge couplers are oversized, I then measured the Menards locomotive from pilot to rear wall (53 feet) using a scale ruler. I then cross-checked it using the same measurement on an N scale Kato FP7, a meticulously scaled model. It measured 53 feet as well.
I also eyeballed the nose contour against the Kato unit, which again has been universally praised as accurate. The Menards unit compared well, spoiled only a bit by the indented pilot design. (O gauge manufacturers frequently get this contour wrong, dating back to Lionel’s postwar F3.)
Check the closeups of the Kato model and the Menards model.
Then I did something that certainly won’t be my routine. I tested it on my 3-by-8-foot home layout featuring O-27 track and curves and a 90-degree crossing. It ran flawlessly, at least without any cars attached. So, yes, no problem with O-31.
Problems? Yes. The remote. Sure enough, like earlier reviewers noted, the battery contact strips were not reaching the positive poles on the batteries, thereby providing no power to the remote. The problem is that the batteries are actually contained in a plastic compartment with plastic slots on the positive ends to secure the batteries firmly. The metal strips (with the pole nubs) simply don’t reach far enough into those slots to make contact with the battery nubs. The battery fits tightly, but that’s misleading because of the design. The solution, as stated by others, is to simply bend the metal strips inward.
The packaging did result in minor abrasions behind the horns of the body, and the bosses (posts) into which the body screws secure the body to the frame are cast in such a way that they create small dimples atop the diesel’s nose. This is a casting problem, not a mold problem.
The running characteristics are as others have reported. I tested it with a Lionel BW-80 controller and brick. You can see for yourself how it ran in this short video.
I love the look of this model and like the way it runs, but it’s as basic as Menards intended for the price. Here’s a sideshot of the Menards locomotive behind the Kato FP7.
@Jim R. posted:Then I did something that certainly won’t be my routine. I tested it on my 3-by-8-foot home layout featuring O-27 track and curves and a 90-degree crossing. It ran flawlessly, at least without any cars attached. So, yes, no problem with O-31.
The running characteristics are as others have reported. I tested it with a Lionel BW-80 controller and brick.
So did you turn it up and measure the track voltage? Turn it up all the way?
http://www.lionel.com/products...rcontroller-6-14003/
John
Is the loco used? The roller looks like it has a couple miles on it!
I was happy to be a tester and plan a more detailed report after further testing.
You don't need 18 volts on the track.
Everything on mine worked like it should. The loco's top was scraped of its paint, as others have stated and one ornamental horn was off, rattling around in the box.
The first test was on the O-42 board for under the Christmas tree. (the tree is gone, but the train board is still in the living room). That track is powered by prewar Marx 729 (toaster) pure sine wave transformers.
Train was 8 Marx cars of the six inch variety. The only way I could keep the cars from derailing at the stop was to lower the remote to just before stop, then lower the track power with the transformer.
Took the loco to the attic layout. It's around 12' x 15' in a letter "P" formation. Track is O-27 profile and O-54 diameter. Power is a homemade brick running through a TPC 300 and TMCC Command base. Layout is mostly level (as level as the floor I installed) and no switches.
Train is 18 mostly old scale sized freight cars all equipped with modern diecast trucks with needle bearings. A long train, but a light and easy pull. The best way to run the train with the Menards loco was with only FOUR volts on the track (the analog voltage meters are probably not reading the chopped waveform accurately). Still it was hard to bring the train to a stop without derailing a car, usually a lightweight tank car. This same train with different locos, has been running perfectly on this same track for over three years.
I like the loco except for two things:
1. It stops dead, dead, dead. The best fix for this is flywheels. But, for less cost, maybe they could reprogram the firmware so that speed steps closer to zero are very small, then the steps get bigger as the control knob is turned farther from zero.
2. Plastic gears. Modern plastic gears are OK if they rotate loosely on their shafts. But plastic gears fixed or press fit onto a steel shaft always seem to crack. If the worm gear and the worm wheel are plastic, that is a deal breaker for me, even at this price point. And the loco will not last long in the hands of someone with challenged/undeveloped hand coordination.
Just look at all those beautiful David O. King locos made in the 80's with plastic worm gears and worm wheels. All the ones I have seen are cracked and unusable.
@RoyBoy posted:You don't need 18 volts on the track.
The first test was on the O-42 board for under the Christmas tree. (the tree is gone, but the train board is still in the living room). That track is powered by prewar Marx 729 (toaster) pure sine wave transformers.
Train was 8 Marx cars of the six inch variety. The only way I could keep the cars from derailing at the stop was to lower the remote to just before stop, then lower the track power with the transformer.
Can you explain? How did you determine the voltage to use. You left it 'fixed' correct?
What voltage did you set the 729?
Thanks,
John
@ChooChoo1972 posted:I received my Sante Fe F3 today. The loco powers up and makes sounds. However when I opened the remote to put the 3 AAA batteries in I found that there were no positive battery contacts installed in the remote so it won’t work. Definitely some QC problems related to the remote. I guess I have to figure out how to get a RMA to return it to Menards.
Unfortunately, Menards will probably refund money as they won't have any extra remotes to give out. Probably too hard to fashion a copper metal strip with enough springiness to reliably touch the battery tips.
Bummer. 
Hope Menards Mark is jotting down all the pluses and negatives. Wonder if Lionel and MTH and others had the same teething problems with first generation of x loco?? 
@Craftech posted:Can you explain? How did you determine the voltage to use. You left it 'fixed' correct?
What voltage did you set the 729?
Thanks,
John
I ran with different voltages and got a feel for how the loco responded with its train at different voltages of track power.
The Marx 729 tops out at 13 volts. Turn on is either 5 or 7 volts. Can't remember.
I ran the Christmas layout at full throttle on the Marx, and about half handle. But I did not measure the track voltage. The loco seemed happier at lower track voltage.
Remember that any of these China drive motor locos are real rockets at full throttle.
The attic layout has a small tower with two cheap analog AC volt meters. In the attic, the loco ran best (I don't run a long train fast) at about 4 volts on the analog meter. Even at only four volts indicated, it was hard to start and stop the train without derailing a car.
I actually ran the train using both track power and remote knob.
To get the loco to stop the train with any sense of grace, I had to turn the remote down as far as it would go before stopping the loco, then "land" the whole thing by reducing track power.
Both the Marx transformers and the Lionel TPC have much finer control than the remote knob.
Have I answered the question?
@Craftech posted:So did you turn it up and measure the track voltage? Turn it up all the way?
http://www.lionel.com/products...rcontroller-6-14003/
John
Nah. Just used the same variable AC throttle setting I use for all remote-function diesels, including LionChief, LionChief Plus and MTH Protosound 2 and 3 (with app control). The approximate voltage is 16 volts.
@rrman posted:Unfortunately, Menards will probably refund money as they won't have any extra remotes to give out. Probably too hard to fashion a copper metal strip with enough springiness to reliably touch the battery tips.
Bummer.
Hope Menards Mark is jotting down all the pluses and negatives. Wonder if Lionel and MTH and others had the same teething problems with first generation of x loco??
Hobby shops have strip brass in different widths and thicknesses. You just have to cut them to length, give them a slight bend, and slide them in.
The springs are on the negative side and what I am hearing is missing are the contacts on the positive side. Much easier to replace.
@RoyBoy posted:Hobby shops have strip brass in different widths and thicknesses. You just have to cut them to length, give them a slight bend, and slide them in.
The springs are on the negative side and what I am hearing is missing are the contacts on the positive side. Much easier to replace.
Even better, reduce the price by removing the remote and make it compatible to Lionel’s Universal remote.
@RoyBoy posted:I ran with different voltages and got a feel for how the loco responded with its train at different voltages of track power.
The Marx 729 tops out at 13 volts. Turn on is either 5 or 7 volts. Can't remember.
I ran the Christmas layout at full throttle on the Marx, and about half handle. But I did not measure the track voltage. The loco seemed happier at lower track voltage.
Remember that any of these China drive motor locos are real rockets at full throttle.
The attic layout has a small tower with two cheap analog AC volt meters. In the attic, the loco ran best (I don't run a long train fast) at about 4 volts on the analog meter. Even at only four volts indicated, it was hard to start and stop the train without derailing a car.
I actually ran the train using both track power and remote knob.
To get the loco to stop the train with any sense of grace, I had to turn the remote down as far as it would go before stopping the loco, then "land" the whole thing by reducing track power.
Both the Marx transformers and the Lionel TPC have much finer control than the remote knob.
Have I answered the question?
Thanks Roy,
Did you try:
1. Turn down Marx transformer power fully
2. Turn remote power full Forward
3. Operate loco at various speeds just using the transformer
4. Repeat for Reverse?
John
@Jim R. posted:Nah. Just used the same variable AC throttle setting I use for all remote-function diesels, including LionChief, LionChief Plus and MTH Protosound 2 and 3 (with app control). The approximate voltage is 16 volts.
OK thanks Jim
John
Great observation, Rusty!!
@brr posted:
Is the loco used? The roller looks like it has a couple miles on it!
I noticed the roller wear as well after I posted the photos. It looked like that out of the packaging. Maybe it was test run at the factory?
The SOO LINE had 8 road numbers for the FP7A and two major paint schemes for them.
You could produce a new one every 4 months and not have to repeat the SOO LINE paint scheme and number combination for several years.
https://sooline.dieselrosters....o-Motive%2BDiesel%2B(EMD)&manufacturerid=3&unittype=FP%2B7A
Hopefully you will have the electronics that will allow two A units to be run together.
Andrew
@Madockawando posted:Even better, reduce the price by removing the remote and make it compatible to Lionel’s Universal remote.
If you want to use Lionel's remote so bad, buy a LIONEL! Lionel has not and most likely never will license Lionchief to anybody else! You are starting to give me a headache! LOL!
@RoyBoy posted:2. Plastic gears. Modern plastic gears are OK if they rotate loosely on their shafts. But plastic gears fixed or press fit onto a steel shaft always seem to crack. If the worm gear and the worm wheel are plastic, that is a deal breaker for me, even at this price point. And the loco will not last long in the hands of someone with challenged/undeveloped hand coordination.
FWIW, the ONLY fully functional Lionel loco I own--amid a group of LTI, LLC, TMCC, and Legacy engines--is my '70s 8020 MPC Alco with plastic drive gears. That loco has more hours/miles on it that all the others combined.
So Menard’s F-3 is actually an FP-7. It looks like a candidate for a Nacionales de Mexico paint job, since the N de M had a small fleet of them.
however, since only a minority of us have any interest in the N de M, I suspect that would require. custom after-market paint and decaying.
Matt your review was excellent. Seems like several others have trouble with the remote also.
BNSF matt,
Great review. You did a fine job. Everything was explained very well. Thank you.
@RoyBoy posted:1. It stops dead, dead, dead. The best fix for this is flywheels. But, for less cost, maybe they could reprogram the firmware so that speed steps closer to zero are very small, then the steps get bigger as the control knob is turned farther from zero.
I'm not sure there's any firmware to reprogram, I didn't see a microprocessor on photo's of the control board.
Rusty
Excellent job, Matt! You were really covered everything well!
Funny, I have modeled in HO, N, and O 3-rail for over 50 years, and I just refer to all of them simply as F-units.
@Mark Boyce posted:Excellent job, Matt! You were really covered everything well!
Funny, I have modeled in HO, N, and O 3-rail for over 50 years, and I just refer to all of them simply as F-units.
Thank you Mark, Jim, and Coach, I probably could have covered a few other items but 36 minutes was already a bit on the long side. I'm glad you enjoyed it.
@BNSF-Matt posted:Thank you Mark, Jim, and Coach, I probably could have covered a few other items but 36 minutes was already a bit on the long side. I'm glad you enjoyed it.
Matt, there is always something else. As a coworker used to say, “I keep turning over rocks and find something else every time’
@BNSF-Matt posted:Thank you Mark, Jim, and Coach, I probably could have covered a few other items but 36 minutes was already a bit on the long side. I'm glad you enjoyed it.
@Mark Boyce posted:Matt, there is always something else. As a coworker used to say, “I keep turning over rocks and find something else every time’
“Better is the enemy of good enough.”
@Jim R. posted:The running characteristics are as others have reported. I tested it with a Lionel BW-80 controller and brick. You can see for yourself how it ran in this short video.
I love the look of this model and like the way it runs, but it’s as basic as Menards intended for the price. Here’s a sideshot of the Menards locomotive behind the Kato FP7.
Thanks for that Jim. I really like your little layout! Your scenery and coloring is very nice.
I am a 2-railer but live in an RV currently so designing a small trolley/industrial layout. It can only be 2’ wide and I have about 12’ of length to work with but I must stow it all when not in use so it has to be designed with that in mind.
@Menards, you MUST complete painting the Warbonnet red w/stripes across the vents. It's not a question of prototype accuracy. As painted, the model looks goofy with the Warbonnet's graceful and colorful lines disrupted by the silver louvers.
@Russell - Idaho USA has posted the perfect profile shot to capture the problem.
What’s exciting to me is that Menards is Midwest. They make rolling stock in Burlington northern, Illinois, and rock island. If they start making engines with those road names, I’ll be ecstatic!!!
@Pingman posted:@Menards, you MUST complete painting the Warbonnet red w/stripes across the vents. It's not a question of prototype accuracy. As painted, the model looks goofy with the Warbonnet's graceful and colorful lines disrupted by the silver louvers.
@Russell - Idaho USA has posted the perfect profile shot to capture the problem.
Why should they? Unpainted stainless grilles are prototypical for an F7…
@Pingman posted:@Menards, you MUST complete painting the Warbonnet red w/stripes across the vents. It's not a question of prototype accuracy. As painted, the model looks goofy with the Warbonnet's graceful and colorful lines disrupted by the silver louvers.
@Russell - Idaho USA has posted the perfect profile shot to capture the problem.
Actually, if you look at prototype photos...
Rusty
@Rusty Traque posted:Menards is using the so-called "freight" pilot. Nothing wrong with that. It was fairly common on F units from the F3 to FL9.
Ontario Northland FP7:
Rusty
Yes, I have F units in multiple scales with that pilot. My point is that the nose contour looks so much nicer with the passenger pilot that’s aligned to complement that nose design. It wasn’t intended as a criticism or a suggestion that Menards got it wrong. In fact, I’m quite impressed with the scale accuracy — for an FP7 that is.
The only odd thing is the missing louvers. I’m curious about that.
I hope I didn’t miss it in this now 11-page thread, but does anybody recognize this shell? I can’t begin to express how surprised I would be if this was made from new tooling. That would represent a major commitment by Menards.
But I do not recognize this shell from any existing product. Yet Menards isn’t bragging about it being new tooling, like you would expect if it was.
I keep staring at mine hoping for an epiphany.
@Jim R. posted:The only odd thing is the missing louvers. I’m curious about that.
I noticed the missing louvers, too... There is stuff missing or incorrect on the model, but given this is an entry level locomotive and the detail level of Menards other train products, I wasn't going to drill down into the gory details.
Over all, the model captures the look an FP7 fairly nicely. I'm sure the target customer (assuming OGR people don't keep buying them out...
) will be satisfied with future releases.
Rusty
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