@wild mary posted:I suspect that this "SPECIAL TEST RUN PRICE" is just that - a one time price. I'm betting that when the locomotive is finally brought to market it will be closer to $225.00 or maybe even higher.
Excellent observation that I think many people missed. It is highly unlikely the full production models of these locomotives will be offered at $129.00
@H1000 posted:That arrangement will cost Menards money and Lionel isn't in the business of letting other manufactures make money from their technology for free. The remotes are similar but the PCB inside is definitely not interchangeable.
I get it, the remotes look similar and that generated giddy hope, but Menards hasn't carried any Lionel product on the shelves or online for a while now. The store manager at our Menards said the most of the Lionel sets sat on shelves Christmas after Christmas until the prices were slashed to a loss. The only thing our Menards carries in trains set anymore are Bachman HO items and their own line of track, rolling stock and buildings.
The answer to that is that Menards sells rolling stock designed to be pulled with Lionel’s locomotives. It’s not a hard technological leap to operate with a simple Universal remote. Menards would gain sales, not loose sales by doing so.
@Ron_S posted:Lionel is not in business to GIVE away technology, they license and expect royalties for their product, look at K-line and their demise.
Menards is making ENTRY level trains for those who want and NEED toys and playthings that are affordable for many families. What your asking is not cheap, and if looking similar is all it takes, then buy a knockoff Rolex and be happy.
Business models are for profit, and what you feel is mutually beneficial for both is not something that could happen with $150 engines. Your not going to be making share holders happy with the proceeds. I applaud Menards for doing what they do, which is make QUALITY toys, trains, buildings and fun stuff most people can afford.
Are you squawking at MTH to bring DCS into a universal remote compatibility?
LoL!! No one is asking for Menards to sell entry level Legacy locomotives. It’s simple Bluetooth connection to an inexpensive Universal remote. It’s not complex and it’s not expensive and it would still be an entry level locomotive. Everyone wins!!
I jumped on this because I had already bought a handful of Menard's Santa Fe cars but owned nothing to pull them; I always liked the Santa Fe Warbonnet color scheme and figured one day I'd pony up the required cash for an engine. So when Menard's dropped this new product on us I could not resist. It's supposed to arrive today so I'm rather looking forward to getting home (maybe a bit early).
@Madockawando posted:Excellent observation that I think many people missed. It is highly unlikely the full production models of these locomotives will be offered at $129.00
And in fact, Menards may never again sell a separate-sale locomotive. From a business point-of-view, marketing a set with a few cars, loop of tubular track, a wall wart, several Menards billboards, might be more likely. --- But we have no idea what Menards is contemplating.
The universal remotes were not Bluetooth. Bluetooth didn't come until later iterations. They could possibly have there own universal remote, but whether it happens remains to be seen.
I see their best bet is to make sure these run well as is and then sell them like that close to this price point.
If (according to that video) the remote doesn't work properly to operate the loco forward and backward, has anyone yet confirmed whether it will run conventionally with a transformer? Doesn't Menards know the answer to that?
John
@Steve "Papa" Eastman posted:Keep in mind if you don’t like the remote etc, a $5.00 rectifier will turn it into a nice dual motored loco.
Steve
@Allegheny posted:Well said!
Would a dead MTH scale 4 motored A-B-A be a better value than cannibalizing 2 of these?
@Craftech posted:If (according to that video) the remote doesn't work properly to operate the loco forward and backward, has anyone yet confirmed whether it will run conventionally with a transformer? Doesn't Menards know the answer to that?
John
I think if it could run in conventional Matt would have pointed that out when his remote wasn’t working. Same for the guy in the video. It appears to have the same handicap as first generation Lionchief.
Pete
First of all, the video maker didn't bother making a closed loop to test running. Seriously.
Secondly, he shows that the behavior seems track voltage dependent. Isn't that to be expected with a handheld remote controlled engine? I thought the rule was give it the nominal amount (18V) and then have at it. What do Lion Chief 1.0 engines do if you skip the powerpack and give the track subnominal voltage?
I watched that video. Seems like with full power (18V at the track) the locomotive jump starts. Looks like it doesn't have great speed control, but it might be different with a loop of track.
Based on that video I can get better speed control out of my 71 year old 2343s I installed an ERR AC Commander in.
@Norton posted:I think if it could run in conventional Matt would have pointed that out when his remote wasn’t working. Same for the guy in the video. It appears to have the same handicap as first generation Lionchief.
Pete
Whether you're using command or a conventional layout the engines turns on with idle engine noise and number boards illuminated with track power and doesn't move.
The remote is absolutely needed to do anything.
My review video should be posted later on this evening or tomorrow morning.
Looking forward to your review Matt!
The previous video seemed more interested in just getting a video up and being excited than making a good video. Personally going straight from the box on video is kind of silly. You can narrate any issues you may have had and address how fixed and also have properly read the instructions and checked everything out first.
@Lou1985 posted:I watched that video. Seems like with full power (18V at the track) the locomotive jump starts. Looks like it doesn't have great speed control, but it might be different with a loop of track.
Based on that video I can get better speed control out of my 71 year old 2343s I installed an ERR AC Commander in.
There is no speed control at all, it helps a little bit to have trailing cars, but this thing goes from 0 to 20 in a snap. Same situation with stopping, the motors just stop so there does not seem to be a flywheel installed.
@Ron_S posted:From what I see of the remote PCB, it is very simple and probably on the concept of RC cars, frequency based and cheap to build, if Menards can make it switchable to run with their remote OR conventionally, THAT would be a Home Run for the market they are targeting.
I agree. Menards remote ot conventionally is all I ask. If this is an FP7 then i'm in for both PRR versions: Tuscan 5 stripes and tje DLGe single stripes. I can add the brass details later.
The nose seems to be more correct as compared to a Williams model.
@BNSF-Matt posted:There is no speed control at all, it helps a little bit to have trailing cars, but this thing goes from 0 to 20 in a snap. Same situation with stopping, the motors just stop so there does not seem to be a flywheel installed.
While the video raises some questions, I'd reserve judgement until some of the Forum members make their reviews.
Rusty
Come to think of it, I think it would be in Lionel's interest to license the Universal remote interoperability to Menards for free. What Lionel needs, more than ever, is a continuous supply of new people coming into the hobby. They don't care how people get started in O gauge, but they do care that these customers can be nurtured into higher end hobbyists that spend lots of money. So from Lionel's perspective, a newbie buying a $200 Menards locomotive can in a few years become a full fledge O gauge train nut buying $600 Legacy locomotives. People are leaving the hobby, either through death or downsizing and we need new people to replace them and Lionel does not care how that happens as much that it happens at all. If letting Menards use the Universal LionChief remote helps that to happen then make it so.
From my understanding Lionel's bread and butter isn't the low end at all. I have heard they are making their money on the high end merchandise which seems obvious because that is what they seem to be investing most in and churning out. I think Menard's is way better positioned for the lower end of the market and am doubtful that this side of the market pushes people into the hobby to any large degree.
I agree with prrhorseshoecurve. I'm in eventually because it seems to be more of an FP7 of which I don't have any than an F3 of which I have many. Details and a command system will come later by me. For the price I'll live with the much better than Williams (Kusan) somewhat flat nose.
Would be nice if the motors have flywheels.
I'm looking forward to seeing videos from OGRR forum people. That's the true testing board. I, too, watched the video mentioned above, and it asked more questions than it answered. Packaging has always been an afterthought for Menards. They don't market orange or yellow or purple boxes like Lionel and MTH. They might want to with their own color. I've purchased a few of their cars (I like their long flat cars), but it feels like I'm buying a MTH car without a box, which diminishes their value in my mind. On the other hand, their value is less so would a nice box bump up the price too much?
@Madockawando posted:Come to think of it, I think it would be in Lionel's interest to license the Universal remote interoperability to Menards for free. What Lionel needs, more than ever, is a continuous supply of new people coming into the hobby. They don't care how people get started in O gauge, but they do care that these customers can be nurtured into higher end hobbyists that spend lots of money. So from Lionel's perspective, a newbie buying a $200 Menards locomotive can in a few years become a full fledge O gauge train nut buying $600 Legacy locomotives. People are leaving the hobby, either through death or downsizing and we need new people to replace them and Lionel does not care how that happens as much that it happens at all. If letting Menards use the Universal LionChief remote helps that to happen then make it so.
It is my understanding that TMCC is open source. LionChief is not.
@RixTrack posted:It is my understanding that TMCC is open source. LionChief is not.
Maybe there is an opportunity to change that. 
Mark from Menard's may be regretting his asking for opinions. LOL! But he did ask. Nice to see some excitement generated by the release. I too look forward to the forum reviews. I hope folks are 100% honest but respectful. Everyone who has one and critiques it should provide specifics of issues. It will only help Menard's make a better product. At the same time the same folks need to keep in mind the price point they are try to be at and the target audience.
@biscuitag97 posted:Here’s a video I found on youtube (not mine): https://youtu.be/0BHI3BUrjp8
Does have a speed control using a poteniometer part. I can imagine that after awhile of back and forth, there will be dead spots of wear, so loco gets jumpy. Just my opinion. Your mileage may vary.
@Madockawando posted:The answer to that is that Menards sells rolling stock designed to be pulled with Lionel’s locomotives. It’s not a hard technological leap to operate with a simple Universal remote. Menards would gain sales, not loose sales by doing so.
The "Leap" between a claw style knuckle coupler and and RF system that controls engine is pretty dang big. The coupler that lets an operator pull any O gauge rolling stock behind any manufactures engine is not proprietary nor patented, it can be used openly and freely by anyone without need of license or permission from any one manufacture. The Lionel LC system is the exact opposite of that.
If some is going to buy a Menards engine over that of a Lionchief with the benefit of being able to use Lionel's universal remote with it, you better believe that Lionel is going to make money on that sale. The purchaser of the Menards engine will pay more for the convenience of compatibility with Lionel's Universal remote.
I'm not saying that it can't or won't happen, but there are a lot of other factors that come into play here that go way beyond the remotes looking alike or both systems using Bluetooth to communicate.
@TexasSP posted:From my understanding Lionel's bread and butter isn't the low end at all. I have heard they are making their money on the high end merchandise which seems obvious because that is what they seem to be investing most in and churning out. I think Menard's is way better positioned for the lower end of the market and am doubtful that this side of the market pushes people into the hobby to any large degree.
Unfortunately, your understanding is completely wrong. When Lionel introduced the Tier 4 starter set engine, Ryan of Lionel said the obvious, that it is the low end traditional starter set line where Lionel makes the profits that keeps Lionel in business.
It's also worth noting that this Menards engine sold out in 3 hours. There have been scale products that couldn't get preorders for 200 units in 3 months! The scale market gets far too much attention especially here on the forum, given how actually small that market is. Think about folks: K-Line didn't end up with a $5M debt from making the 027 starter products that put them on the map in the first place.
How about MTH? Mike Wolf said a number of years ago they were losing money. That would explain their lack of new product tooling save for the 44 ton switcher, and why the search to find a buyer for the company was so long and unfruitful.
It's a long story, but I got into a discussion with a Lionel rep at a dealer's event. When he noticed I was wearing a (self-made) K-Line 027 trains shirt, he humorously quibbled, why not Lionel. I told him point blank, I want to buy a train car... not make a welfare subsidy payment to tooling and production loses on the scale high end. And after a lengthy discussion, he never disagreed with what I said.
I also told him I thought they were holding down prices on scale stuff (IE: a US made LionScale car retails less than a Chinese made traditional car with die cast trucks). He didn't disagree with that point either.
YES, Lionel does really hawk up their scale product line. But the only way you're going to hear Lionel say the scale product line is what keeps them profitable is for them to sell a whole lot more of it, and to also raise prices a lot... a REAL LOT!
@TexasSP posted:From my understanding Lionel's bread and butter isn't the low end at all. I have heard they are making their money on the high end merchandise which seems obvious because that is what they seem to be investing most in and churning out. I think Menard's is way better positioned for the lower end of the market and am doubtful that this side of the market pushes people into the hobby to any large degree.
You heard wrong. Both Lionel and MTH have said the opposite.
Before this thread begins to drift too far.
Matt ,or one of the others that purchased this as a beta tester, needs to dissect the power train and see what these locos have for gears.
Plastic gears in the trucks can't be overcome with an improved speed control,flywheels, or anything else.
@TexasSP posted:From my understanding Lionel's bread and butter isn't the low end at all. I have heard they are making their money on the high end merchandise which seems obvious because that is what they seem to be investing most in and churning out. I think Menard's is way better positioned for the lower end of the market and am doubtful that this side of the market pushes people into the hobby to any large degree.
Hasn't Lionel themselves stated that they make most of their money from their starter sets?
Look at it this way: selling 150 $300 starter sets makes more money than selling 50 $600 high end, legacy locomotives.
plus I personally think that someone new to the hobby is more likely to purchase a starter set, which comes with an engine, a consist, track, a power pack, and a remote, than just one engine which costs twice as much as that entire set. It makes more sense to save up for the big stuff after you get the basics imo.
The truth, as they say, probably lies somewhere in the middle of all arguments. "Great MTH layouts" video shows Mike Wolf saying starter sets introduce people to the hobby and are low margin. Low margin with high volume means profit. Likewise, scale $1,000+ models are likely high margin with low volume that may be profitable as well. Menards is smart enough to look at the cost, add their margin and, says, yes, this makes business sense. More trains from more manufacturers creates more awareness and more customers and more choices and more competition. Its all good stuff for us.
@brianel_k-lineguy posted:Unfortunately, your understanding is completely wrong. When Lionel introduced the Tier 4 starter set engine, Ryan of Lionel said the obvious, that it is the low end traditional starter set line where Lionel makes the profits that keeps Lionel in business.
Do you have a link or reference to Ryan saying this other than your memory? Sorry, but I have no reason to believe your post either. If the scale market wasn't profitable then why would Lionel put so much effort into it? It is easy to see it takes much more in time and money to produce the scale items than run of the mill low end sets using the same basic tooling Lionel has had forever.
Look, if I am wrong, I am wrong, but don't go rudely stating it like you did without something tangible to back it up.
@IRON HORSE posted:The truth, as they say, probably lies somewhere in the middle of all arguments. "Great MTH layouts" video shows Mike Wolf saying starter sets introduce people to the hobby and are low margin. Low margin with high volume means profit. Likewise, scale $1,000+ models are likely high margin with low volume that may be profitable as well. Menards is smart enough to look at the cost, add their margin and, says, yes, this makes business sense. More trains from more manufacturers creates more awareness and more customers and more choices and more competition. Its all good stuff for us.
My exact point. I am speaking of profitability dollars not revenue dollars.
@RixTrack posted:It is my understanding that TMCC is open source. LionChief is not.
TMCC is open source but that doesn't mean you start building your own TMCC CAB-1 Base and remote and selling them without paying Lionel a royalty.
The TMCC code can be used freely to talk to a Lionel TMCC base and this is how MTH doesn't have to pay a single dime to Lionel for interfacing to a TMCC Base with a TIU. Because the end user still has to buy a TMCC Base from Lionel to use these TMCC features on their layout.
If memory serves me correct, it was one of Lionel's later CEO's or exec's that said making the TMCC code base free for anyone to use was big mistake and wish it would have never been done. I have to search for where I saw that quoted, it might just be hearsay. Legacy code base can be used by license only and I do believe MTH had to pay a licensing fee when they inserted Legacy specific options into their WIFI app. And again you have to purchase two pieces of Lionel hardware to use Legacy features in the app.
I hope Menards finds success with these locomotives and look forward to more offerings from them.
@H1000 posted:The "Leap" between a claw style knuckle coupler and and RF system that controls engine is pretty dang big. The coupler that lets an operator pull any O gauge rolling stock behind any manufactures engine is not proprietary nor patented, it can be used openly and freely by anyone without need of license or permission from any one manufacture. The Lionel LC system is the exact opposite of that.
If some is going to buy a Menards engine over that of a Lionchief with the benefit of being able to use Lionel's universal remote with it, you better believe that Lionel is going to make money on that sale. The purchaser of the Menards engine will pay more for the convenience of compatibility with Lionel's Universal remote.
I'm not saying that it can't or won't happen, but there are a lot of other factors that come into play here that go way beyond the remotes looking alike or both systems using Bluetooth to communicate.
It sounds to me like you do not want Menards to offer compatibility with Lionel’s Universal Remote, even if it doesn’t increase the price. Am I correct?
@Madockawando posted:It sounds to me like you do not want Menards to offer compatibility with Lionel’s Universal Remote, even if it doesn’t increase the price. Am I correct?
I could careless if they do or don't but the utopia where Lionel just gives away technology without asking someone to pay for it doesn't exist.
I have lots of Menards stuff in my collection mainly because it is decent quality and very affordable. I don't want to pay more for an engine just so that it can have features that I don't need or want nor do they enhance the play ability of the engine at all.
This is thread is totally derailing and turning into a universal remote/company profitability thread and not focusing on the engine itself. Lame. I’d like to know if it has metal gears, it’s adequately lubed at the factory, fit and finish of parts, a look under the shell & that sort of stuff. I saw a while back that cabinetbob posted a pic of the remote… and then he went MIA. I wonder if he’s having issues with his. He’s usually pretty quick to post pics & vids.
I asked my boys about the remotes, they are 5 and an 8 year so your mileage will vary. They like having separate remotes for all of the engines because they said it feels like they are the only one that can control it, like they are the engineers of that specific train. I don't know. I also asked them what they thought of the remote for this engine from the videos that we've seen and they liked it. They just can't wait to get their hands on it!
We have 4 LC/LC+ Remotes/Engines, 1 Universal Remote for a few engines that we purchased that were orphaned and 2 DCS remotes. They just go in the makeshift holders around the set. When they want to run them, they grab the appropriate remote and go about their business. I run conventional sometimes, but they both prefer running their own remote... several fights have broken out over "One" remote. So for our needs, more the merrier, I'll go and get another cup from Mcdonald's and make another holder.
My brother has one on order and it is supposed to arrive tomorrow. We are looking forward to putting it through the paces and giving it a good work out. We are especially curious about the motors and drive system. Menards reported that they tested the range to 20 feet, we'll see just how far it can go!!
@Former Member posted:This is thread is totally derailing and turning into a universal remote/company profitability thread and not focusing on the engine itself. Lame. I’d like to know if it has metal gears, it’s adequately lubed at the factory, fit and finish of parts, a look under the shell & that sort of stuff. I saw a while back that cabinetbob posted a pic of the remote… and then he went MIA. I wonder if he’s having issues with his. He’s usually pretty quick to post pics & vids. Thank you Ross. This is all I care about too. If I want scale I buy scale. I just want to see how good of a product their making that's all.
I will post a fair and honest opinion once mine arrives this weekend. While I consult for one of the other train manufacturers, the market I am involved in is totally different and I don't see any conflict as I'm not going to compare a $150 locomotive with a $750 one outside of a few photos to see how it compares to my FP7 on length, width, & height.
I purchased it at face value of what it was described as - an entry level locomotive with some easy to use features. I too want to see how it is constructed, what the materials are, and most importantly, how does it run on various layouts? Does the remote frequency interfere with other wireless control systems? At the Paradise and Pacific there are no less than 4 different command systems in operation at one time. We have had issues with our signals getting crossed (forgive the pun) with some of the other clubs and have had to make adjustments. I am wondering how this locomotive reacts with the other clubs but also with the Legacy/TMCC system and DCS systems in use on the club layout.
Outside of that, I just want to have a fun locomotive to play with.
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