These are the things we need to know and learn, so when thinking of purchasing one, we know if our layout supports it. I personally run a Z4000 and a ROW 400 transformer with a Z250 for accessories.
The club layout, where 2 members who purchased one will run it, is strictly powered by Z4000, MRC and Z1000, Z750.
@Craftech posted:1. Turned up the track voltage on my tubular track layout (measured with an AC voltmeter) with KW throttle till it read 18v center to outside rail.
2. Placed engine on track and plugged in KW. Engine started.
3. Turned on remote. Light came on, sound level adjusted with remote volume control.
4. Moved forward no problem, ran a few feet, and then it tripped the circuit breaker I have in line with rails. The breaker is rated at 7.5A (Sensata breaker).
5. Disconnected everything except power to a single lockon. Same thing after a few feet.
6. Turned voltage down to around 16v. Tripped the breaker after short run again.
7. Connected different accessory terminals to track, but I could not get a reading on my voltmeter at the track so I was afraid to try the engine that way. I have never connected the accessory terminals to the track before anyway.
8. Next step is to make a circle with some Menards tubular track, connect power to it, and try it again. If that doesn't work I will get an 18v DC power supply and try that on my tubular track. Positive to center rail, negative to one of the outside rails.\
John
I suspect a momentary short that happens when engine moves. Check wires to the trucks for abrasions or missing heat shrink tubing. Or a pickup rollers are unevenly round or holder warpped and touching the truck frame.
@rrman posted:I suspect a momentary short that happens when engine moves. Check wires to the trucks for abrasions or missing heat shrink tubing. Or a pickup rollers are unevenly round or holder warpped and touching the truck frame.
I'll probably do that tomorrow. What I did so far was done in a rush which is not how I like to work. But thanks for the advice. I think a separate track setup is a better bet for a fair evaluation. I have a lot of those breakers as well as TVS diodes to protect the Menards engine. The breakers pop immediately whenever there is a short (derailment). Great peace of mind.
But I may use a laptop DC power supply connected to tubular track first. Works great on my grandson's Lion Chief Fastrack setup - better than the wall wart it came with. I would test it on his layout, but he lives 2 hours from me and I am pretty sure others are testing it with similar setups.
So angry at our loathsome post office. Following the tracking it seems my diesel went from the airport distribution center to a neighboring post office to my post office and then back to the neighboring post office. And now its back at the distribution center. Grrrr!
I received my Sante Fe F3 today. The loco powers up and makes sounds. However when I opened the remote to put the 3 AAA batteries in I found that there were no positive battery contacts installed in the remote so it won’t work. Definitely some QC problems related to the remote. I guess I have to figure out how to get a RMA to return it to Menards.
@Landsteiner posted:"And a big price jump compared to the other LionChief diesels too."
Those diesels Norton is linking to aren't LionChief, they are LionChief + 2.0. Unlike simple LionChief (and the Menard's loco), they operate in conventional, Bluetooth, LionChief and TMCC modes. They have more scale details, electrocouplers, full Railsounds, etc. They are more like a TMCC loco from some years ago, or even Legacy than resembling a LionChief loco. Apples and oranges
. $200 street price (single loco) vs. $600 (and that's for an A-A or A-B pair). I know people get a lot of pleasure at pointing out Lionel's "exorbitant prices," but let's try to be accurate and fair
My apologies, I was comparing those F3's to the RS3's, which apparently still have the original LionChief. However I will disagree on the part about detail, because those F3's are (for the most part) still the traditional Postwar F3's. Plus, the second locomotive is a dummy, so I'm not sure how much of a price jump that warrants, especially up to $600-700.
OK, mine arrived this afternoon. I only had enough time to test run it, but here are some supplemental observations on top of what has already been revealed by forum members who also purchased these.
First, it does appear to be an FP7, minus the four louvers that are a telltale sign of such cab units from EMD. I checked dimensional data from Model Railroader Cyclopedia Volume 2 Diesel Locomotives to confirm the length coupler face to face (54’ 8”). Because O gauge couplers are oversized, I then measured the Menards locomotive from pilot to rear wall (53 feet) using a scale ruler. I then cross-checked it using the same measurement on an N scale Kato FP7, a meticulously scaled model. It measured 53 feet as well.
I also eyeballed the nose contour against the Kato unit, which again has been universally praised as accurate. The Menards unit compared well, spoiled only a bit by the indented pilot design. (O gauge manufacturers frequently get this contour wrong, dating back to Lionel’s postwar F3.)
Check the closeups of the Kato model and the Menards model.
Then I did something that certainly won’t be my routine. I tested it on my 3-by-8-foot home layout featuring O-27 track and curves and a 90-degree crossing. It ran flawlessly, at least without any cars attached. So, yes, no problem with O-31.
Problems? Yes. The remote. Sure enough, like earlier reviewers noted, the battery contact strips were not reaching the positive poles on the batteries, thereby providing no power to the remote. The problem is that the batteries are actually contained in a plastic compartment with plastic slots on the positive ends to secure the batteries firmly. The metal strips (with the pole nubs) simply don’t reach far enough into those slots to make contact with the battery nubs. The battery fits tightly, but that’s misleading because of the design. The solution, as stated by others, is to simply bend the metal strips inward.
The packaging did result in minor abrasions behind the horns of the body, and the bosses (posts) into which the body screws secure the body to the frame are cast in such a way that they create small dimples atop the diesel’s nose. This is a casting problem, not a mold problem.
The running characteristics are as others have reported. I tested it with a Lionel BW-80 controller and brick. You can see for yourself how it ran in this short video.
I love the look of this model and like the way it runs, but it’s as basic as Menards intended for the price. Here’s a sideshot of the Menards locomotive behind the Kato FP7.
@Jim R. posted:Then I did something that certainly won’t be my routine. I tested it on my 3-by-8-foot home layout featuring O-27 track and curves and a 90-degree crossing. It ran flawlessly, at least without any cars attached. So, yes, no problem with O-31.
The running characteristics are as others have reported. I tested it with a Lionel BW-80 controller and brick.
So did you turn it up and measure the track voltage? Turn it up all the way?
http://www.lionel.com/products...rcontroller-6-14003/
John
Is the loco used? The roller looks like it has a couple miles on it!
I was happy to be a tester and plan a more detailed report after further testing.
You don't need 18 volts on the track.
Everything on mine worked like it should. The loco's top was scraped of its paint, as others have stated and one ornamental horn was off, rattling around in the box.
The first test was on the O-42 board for under the Christmas tree. (the tree is gone, but the train board is still in the living room). That track is powered by prewar Marx 729 (toaster) pure sine wave transformers.
Train was 8 Marx cars of the six inch variety. The only way I could keep the cars from derailing at the stop was to lower the remote to just before stop, then lower the track power with the transformer.
Took the loco to the attic layout. It's around 12' x 15' in a letter "P" formation. Track is O-27 profile and O-54 diameter. Power is a homemade brick running through a TPC 300 and TMCC Command base. Layout is mostly level (as level as the floor I installed) and no switches.
Train is 18 mostly old scale sized freight cars all equipped with modern diecast trucks with needle bearings. A long train, but a light and easy pull. The best way to run the train with the Menards loco was with only FOUR volts on the track (the analog voltage meters are probably not reading the chopped waveform accurately). Still it was hard to bring the train to a stop without derailing a car, usually a lightweight tank car. This same train with different locos, has been running perfectly on this same track for over three years.
I like the loco except for two things:
1. It stops dead, dead, dead. The best fix for this is flywheels. But, for less cost, maybe they could reprogram the firmware so that speed steps closer to zero are very small, then the steps get bigger as the control knob is turned farther from zero.
2. Plastic gears. Modern plastic gears are OK if they rotate loosely on their shafts. But plastic gears fixed or press fit onto a steel shaft always seem to crack. If the worm gear and the worm wheel are plastic, that is a deal breaker for me, even at this price point. And the loco will not last long in the hands of someone with challenged/undeveloped hand coordination.
Just look at all those beautiful David O. King locos made in the 80's with plastic worm gears and worm wheels. All the ones I have seen are cracked and unusable.
@RoyBoy posted:You don't need 18 volts on the track.
The first test was on the O-42 board for under the Christmas tree. (the tree is gone, but the train board is still in the living room). That track is powered by prewar Marx 729 (toaster) pure sine wave transformers.
Train was 8 Marx cars of the six inch variety. The only way I could keep the cars from derailing at the stop was to lower the remote to just before stop, then lower the track power with the transformer.
Can you explain? How did you determine the voltage to use. You left it 'fixed' correct?
What voltage did you set the 729?
Thanks,
John
@ChooChoo1972 posted:I received my Sante Fe F3 today. The loco powers up and makes sounds. However when I opened the remote to put the 3 AAA batteries in I found that there were no positive battery contacts installed in the remote so it won’t work. Definitely some QC problems related to the remote. I guess I have to figure out how to get a RMA to return it to Menards.
Unfortunately, Menards will probably refund money as they won't have any extra remotes to give out. Probably too hard to fashion a copper metal strip with enough springiness to reliably touch the battery tips.
Bummer. 
Hope Menards Mark is jotting down all the pluses and negatives. Wonder if Lionel and MTH and others had the same teething problems with first generation of x loco?? 
@Craftech posted:Can you explain? How did you determine the voltage to use. You left it 'fixed' correct?
What voltage did you set the 729?
Thanks,
John
I ran with different voltages and got a feel for how the loco responded with its train at different voltages of track power.
The Marx 729 tops out at 13 volts. Turn on is either 5 or 7 volts. Can't remember.
I ran the Christmas layout at full throttle on the Marx, and about half handle. But I did not measure the track voltage. The loco seemed happier at lower track voltage.
Remember that any of these China drive motor locos are real rockets at full throttle.
The attic layout has a small tower with two cheap analog AC volt meters. In the attic, the loco ran best (I don't run a long train fast) at about 4 volts on the analog meter. Even at only four volts indicated, it was hard to start and stop the train without derailing a car.
I actually ran the train using both track power and remote knob.
To get the loco to stop the train with any sense of grace, I had to turn the remote down as far as it would go before stopping the loco, then "land" the whole thing by reducing track power.
Both the Marx transformers and the Lionel TPC have much finer control than the remote knob.
Have I answered the question?
@Craftech posted:So did you turn it up and measure the track voltage? Turn it up all the way?
http://www.lionel.com/products...rcontroller-6-14003/
John
Nah. Just used the same variable AC throttle setting I use for all remote-function diesels, including LionChief, LionChief Plus and MTH Protosound 2 and 3 (with app control). The approximate voltage is 16 volts.
@rrman posted:Unfortunately, Menards will probably refund money as they won't have any extra remotes to give out. Probably too hard to fashion a copper metal strip with enough springiness to reliably touch the battery tips.
Bummer.
Hope Menards Mark is jotting down all the pluses and negatives. Wonder if Lionel and MTH and others had the same teething problems with first generation of x loco??
Hobby shops have strip brass in different widths and thicknesses. You just have to cut them to length, give them a slight bend, and slide them in.
The springs are on the negative side and what I am hearing is missing are the contacts on the positive side. Much easier to replace.
@RoyBoy posted:Hobby shops have strip brass in different widths and thicknesses. You just have to cut them to length, give them a slight bend, and slide them in.
The springs are on the negative side and what I am hearing is missing are the contacts on the positive side. Much easier to replace.
Even better, reduce the price by removing the remote and make it compatible to Lionel’s Universal remote.
@RoyBoy posted:I ran with different voltages and got a feel for how the loco responded with its train at different voltages of track power.
The Marx 729 tops out at 13 volts. Turn on is either 5 or 7 volts. Can't remember.
I ran the Christmas layout at full throttle on the Marx, and about half handle. But I did not measure the track voltage. The loco seemed happier at lower track voltage.
Remember that any of these China drive motor locos are real rockets at full throttle.
The attic layout has a small tower with two cheap analog AC volt meters. In the attic, the loco ran best (I don't run a long train fast) at about 4 volts on the analog meter. Even at only four volts indicated, it was hard to start and stop the train without derailing a car.
I actually ran the train using both track power and remote knob.
To get the loco to stop the train with any sense of grace, I had to turn the remote down as far as it would go before stopping the loco, then "land" the whole thing by reducing track power.
Both the Marx transformers and the Lionel TPC have much finer control than the remote knob.
Have I answered the question?
Thanks Roy,
Did you try:
1. Turn down Marx transformer power fully
2. Turn remote power full Forward
3. Operate loco at various speeds just using the transformer
4. Repeat for Reverse?
John
@Jim R. posted:Nah. Just used the same variable AC throttle setting I use for all remote-function diesels, including LionChief, LionChief Plus and MTH Protosound 2 and 3 (with app control). The approximate voltage is 16 volts.
OK thanks Jim
John
Great observation, Rusty!!
@brr posted:
Is the loco used? The roller looks like it has a couple miles on it!
I noticed the roller wear as well after I posted the photos. It looked like that out of the packaging. Maybe it was test run at the factory?
The SOO LINE had 8 road numbers for the FP7A and two major paint schemes for them.
You could produce a new one every 4 months and not have to repeat the SOO LINE paint scheme and number combination for several years.
https://sooline.dieselrosters....o-Motive%2BDiesel%2B(EMD)&manufacturerid=3&unittype=FP%2B7A
Hopefully you will have the electronics that will allow two A units to be run together.
Andrew
@Madockawando posted:Even better, reduce the price by removing the remote and make it compatible to Lionel’s Universal remote.
If you want to use Lionel's remote so bad, buy a LIONEL! Lionel has not and most likely never will license Lionchief to anybody else! You are starting to give me a headache! LOL!
@RoyBoy posted:2. Plastic gears. Modern plastic gears are OK if they rotate loosely on their shafts. But plastic gears fixed or press fit onto a steel shaft always seem to crack. If the worm gear and the worm wheel are plastic, that is a deal breaker for me, even at this price point. And the loco will not last long in the hands of someone with challenged/undeveloped hand coordination.
FWIW, the ONLY fully functional Lionel loco I own--amid a group of LTI, LLC, TMCC, and Legacy engines--is my '70s 8020 MPC Alco with plastic drive gears. That loco has more hours/miles on it that all the others combined.
So Menard’s F-3 is actually an FP-7. It looks like a candidate for a Nacionales de Mexico paint job, since the N de M had a small fleet of them.
however, since only a minority of us have any interest in the N de M, I suspect that would require. custom after-market paint and decaying.
Matt your review was excellent. Seems like several others have trouble with the remote also.
BNSF matt,
Great review. You did a fine job. Everything was explained very well. Thank you.
@RoyBoy posted:1. It stops dead, dead, dead. The best fix for this is flywheels. But, for less cost, maybe they could reprogram the firmware so that speed steps closer to zero are very small, then the steps get bigger as the control knob is turned farther from zero.
I'm not sure there's any firmware to reprogram, I didn't see a microprocessor on photo's of the control board.
Rusty
Excellent job, Matt! You were really covered everything well!
Funny, I have modeled in HO, N, and O 3-rail for over 50 years, and I just refer to all of them simply as F-units.
@Mark Boyce posted:Excellent job, Matt! You were really covered everything well!
Funny, I have modeled in HO, N, and O 3-rail for over 50 years, and I just refer to all of them simply as F-units.
Thank you Mark, Jim, and Coach, I probably could have covered a few other items but 36 minutes was already a bit on the long side. I'm glad you enjoyed it.
@BNSF-Matt posted:Thank you Mark, Jim, and Coach, I probably could have covered a few other items but 36 minutes was already a bit on the long side. I'm glad you enjoyed it.
Matt, there is always something else. As a coworker used to say, “I keep turning over rocks and find something else every time’
@BNSF-Matt posted:Thank you Mark, Jim, and Coach, I probably could have covered a few other items but 36 minutes was already a bit on the long side. I'm glad you enjoyed it.
@Mark Boyce posted:Matt, there is always something else. As a coworker used to say, “I keep turning over rocks and find something else every time’
“Better is the enemy of good enough.”
@Jim R. posted:The running characteristics are as others have reported. I tested it with a Lionel BW-80 controller and brick. You can see for yourself how it ran in this short video.
I love the look of this model and like the way it runs, but it’s as basic as Menards intended for the price. Here’s a sideshot of the Menards locomotive behind the Kato FP7.
Thanks for that Jim. I really like your little layout! Your scenery and coloring is very nice.
I am a 2-railer but live in an RV currently so designing a small trolley/industrial layout. It can only be 2’ wide and I have about 12’ of length to work with but I must stow it all when not in use so it has to be designed with that in mind.
@Menards, you MUST complete painting the Warbonnet red w/stripes across the vents. It's not a question of prototype accuracy. As painted, the model looks goofy with the Warbonnet's graceful and colorful lines disrupted by the silver louvers.
@Russell - Idaho USA has posted the perfect profile shot to capture the problem.
What’s exciting to me is that Menards is Midwest. They make rolling stock in Burlington northern, Illinois, and rock island. If they start making engines with those road names, I’ll be ecstatic!!!
@Pingman posted:@Menards, you MUST complete painting the Warbonnet red w/stripes across the vents. It's not a question of prototype accuracy. As painted, the model looks goofy with the Warbonnet's graceful and colorful lines disrupted by the silver louvers.
@Russell - Idaho USA has posted the perfect profile shot to capture the problem.
Why should they? Unpainted stainless grilles are prototypical for an F7…
@Pingman posted:@Menards, you MUST complete painting the Warbonnet red w/stripes across the vents. It's not a question of prototype accuracy. As painted, the model looks goofy with the Warbonnet's graceful and colorful lines disrupted by the silver louvers.
@Russell - Idaho USA has posted the perfect profile shot to capture the problem.
Actually, if you look at prototype photos...
Rusty
@Rusty Traque posted:Menards is using the so-called "freight" pilot. Nothing wrong with that. It was fairly common on F units from the F3 to FL9.
Ontario Northland FP7:
Rusty
Yes, I have F units in multiple scales with that pilot. My point is that the nose contour looks so much nicer with the passenger pilot that’s aligned to complement that nose design. It wasn’t intended as a criticism or a suggestion that Menards got it wrong. In fact, I’m quite impressed with the scale accuracy — for an FP7 that is.
The only odd thing is the missing louvers. I’m curious about that.
I hope I didn’t miss it in this now 11-page thread, but does anybody recognize this shell? I can’t begin to express how surprised I would be if this was made from new tooling. That would represent a major commitment by Menards.
But I do not recognize this shell from any existing product. Yet Menards isn’t bragging about it being new tooling, like you would expect if it was.
I keep staring at mine hoping for an epiphany.
@Jim R. posted:The only odd thing is the missing louvers. I’m curious about that.
I noticed the missing louvers, too... There is stuff missing or incorrect on the model, but given this is an entry level locomotive and the detail level of Menards other train products, I wasn't going to drill down into the gory details.
Over all, the model captures the look an FP7 fairly nicely. I'm sure the target customer (assuming OGR people don't keep buying them out...
) will be satisfied with future releases.
Rusty
@chinatrain99 posted:What’s exciting to me is that Menards is Midwest. They make rolling stock in Burlington northern, Illinois, and rock island. If they start making engines with those road names, I’ll be ecstatic!!!
If Menards offers a Milwaukee Road unit, I’m all in again.
Go Friendly, and have a Black Widow set. (SP)
Has there ever been a locomotive release that caused this much excitement? 12 pages of discussion and counting…
Bravo to Menards for introducing a locomotive. I like it. I do hope they can offer better slow speed control on future releases. A better sounding horn would be a plus too.
Other suggestions - this model begs to be run as an A-A set. I hope they offer a dummy version. Paint a set in in Pennsy 5-stripe Tuscan and another in NYC passenger lightning stripe with silver trucks and I’m in for both!
Tracking claims that the USPS will actually deliver mine today. So, 4 days from WI to MD. Thanks for your efficiency improvements Mr. DeJoy. 
@Craftech posted:1. Turned up the track voltage on my tubular track layout (measured with an AC voltmeter) with KW throttle till it read 18v center to outside rail.
2. Placed engine on track and plugged in KW. Engine started.
3. Turned on remote. Light came on, sound level adjusted with remote volume control.
4. Moved forward no problem, ran a few feet, and then it tripped the circuit breaker I have in line with rails. The breaker is rated at 7.5A (Sensata breaker).
5. Disconnected everything except power to a single lockon. Same thing after a few feet.
6. Turned voltage down to around 16v. Tripped the breaker after short run again.
7. Connected different accessory terminals to track, but I could not get a reading on my voltmeter at the track so I was afraid to try the engine that way. I have never connected the accessory terminals to the track before anyway.
8. Next step is to make a circle with some Menards tubular track, connect power to it, and try it again. If that doesn't work I will get an 18v DC power supply and try that on my tubular track. Positive to center rail, negative to one of the outside rails.\
John
Follow-up:
1. Made an 0-36 circle from Menards tubular track
2. Using a lockon I attached the center rail to a 7.5A Sensata Circuit breaker and the breaker to the U Post on a Post War 1033 transformer. The outer rail went to the C post.
3. Immediately upon plugging in the 1033 the engine started.
4. After doing the usual bending of the battery terminals on the remote that came on too.
5. The engine ran around the circle continuously without tripping the breaker. The remote worked as others have been describing. Abrupt starts and stops, but otherwise no problem. Funky horn as described too. Importantly, this engine doesn't seem to like my normal setup and trips the breaker. I should examine my setup further.
6. As Jim and Roy have pointed out, it doesn't appear to need very many volts to operate. I varied the handle position on the 1033 and it didn't seem to make much of a difference. I may try it with a DC power supply as well.
As far as the abrupt starts and stops, if not the engine, maybe the remote. It has a 10K pot. Here is what it looks like. Nothing complicated about it.
John
In looking at the MSRP pricing in todays lionel catalog for diesels, its really refreshing to know someone's bringing more user friendly pricing to this guage/hobby! $499.99 for a superbass diesel which is a non powered shell with a sound board meantime the powered unit is only $100.00 more?
The final version of this O gauge/O scale FP7 diesel has to have a conventional transformer power mode board & switch, in case the remote is lost or will not operate.
Andrew
For anyone who has this model for testing, can we get a picture comparison of this model vs a Williams/Kusan F7, especially the front nose area!
@Craftech posted:Follow-up:
1. Made an 0-36 circle from Menards tubular track
2. Using a lockon I attached the center rail to a 7.5A Sensata Circuit breaker and the breaker to the U Post on a Post War 1033 transformer. The outer rail went to the C post.
3. Immediately upon plugging in the 1033 the engine started.
4. After doing the usual bending of the battery terminals on the remote that came on too.
5. The engine ran around the circle continuously without tripping the breaker. The remote worked as others have been describing. Abrupt starts and stops, but otherwise no problem. Funky horn as described too. Importantly, this engine doesn't seem to like my normal setup and trips the breaker. I should examine my setup further.
6. As Jim and Roy have pointed out, it doesn't appear to need very many volts to operate. I varied the handle position on the 1033 and it didn't seem to make much of a difference. I may try it with a DC power supply as well.
As far as the abrupt starts and stops, if not the engine, maybe the remote. It has a 10K pot. Here is what it looks like. Nothing complicated about it.
John
So what does a 10K Pot mean, and what would be better in its place to improve the low speed control?
Thanks
Dan
@falconservice posted:The final version of this O gauge/O scale FP7 diesel has to have a conventional transformer power mode board & switch, in case the remote is lost or will not operate.
Andrew
I feel the same way. Mainly because I have nearly all postwar and run conventionally. I would really like to add some inexpensive new engines to my layout.
I have recently purchased several of Menards rolling stock and I am pleased with them.
There are some of us out here that have small budgets to add things to our layouts each year. I feel this price point will allow me to add a couple new engines at once.
PRR and Reading please. 😊
@Daniel Bobrovsky posted:So what does a 10K Pot mean, and what would be better in its place to improve the low speed control?
Thanks
Dan
It goes from 0 to 10,000 Ohms resistance. Seeing the low range would be essentially the same on a bigger pot (say a 100K) I'm not sure if it would effect the low speed/stop operation. The locomotive board could simply shut down after a certain low voltage is reached.
Rusty
I'd like the record to show I've been calling this since 2017 
: https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/...64#74213916758512664
I think it's amazing and awesome that Menards is getting into motive power. I'm a conventional guy with a couple of Lionchief + and bluerail engines operating on 031. I've also been wanting a War Bonnet for a while - so I would definitely see myself jumping in the ring on this one. This is a great value below $200.
My observations/feedback from just seeing it online:
1. The metallic trucks / fuel tank and the matte finish paint on the shell look strange together. Reminds me of how I dress for zoom calls - shirt and coat up top, and shorts on bottom. I would suggest a glossy paint finish on the shell or dull down the bottom half.
2. I agree it would be nice to run it conventionally as @falconservice mentions. Even if the switch was simply between remote and forward only. I can swap in an e-unit or different control system if really needed. I'd rather keep the initial cost down.
3. It does appear that the gears are plastic from one of the pics posted. The drive train should be metal gears and bullet proof. The additional cost for metal gears would be worth it.
4. Rename it as an FP7 as others have mentioned. Casual O Gauge guys would buy it either way because of the paint scheme. Scale-ish guys could sleep easier at night knowing they purchased and FP7 and not an out of scale F3.
5. Two motors - great value
6. Remote control - great - directly competing with Lionchief...volume dial is nice feature
7. Nice variety of phrases
8. Directional lighting - nice feature, great value
9. Rugged stamped-steel frame, Metal trucks with die-cast frame - durability is key
Nice job @Menards Mark and @cabinet Bob
@JD2035RR posted:I'd like the record to show I've been calling this since 2017
I think it's amazing and awesome that Menards is getting into motive power. I'm a conventional guy with a couple of Lionchief + and bluerail engines operating on 031. I've also been wanting a War Bonnet for a while - so I would definitely see myself jumping in the ring on this one. This is a great value below $200.
My observations/feedback from just seeing it online:
1. The metallic trucks / fuel tank and the matte finish paint on the shell look strange together. Reminds me of how I dress for zoom calls - shirt and coat up top, and shorts on bottom. I would suggest a glossy paint finish on the shell or dull down the bottom half.
2. I agree it would be nice to run it conventionally as @falconservice mentions. Even if the switch was simply between remote and forward only. I can swap in an e-unit or different control system if really needed. I'd rather keep the initial cost down.
3. It does appear that the gears are plastic from one of the pics posted. The drive train should be metal gears and bullet proof. The additional cost for metal gears would be worth it.
4. Rename it as an FP7 as others have mentioned. Casual O Gauge guys would buy it either way because of the paint scheme. Scale-ish guys could sleep easier at night knowing they purchased and FP7 and not an out of scale F3.
5. Two motors - great value
6. Remote control - great - directly competing with Lionchief...volume dial is nice feature
7. Nice variety of phrases
8. Directional lighting - nice feature, great value
9. Rugged stamped-steel frame, Metal trucks with die-cast frame - durability is key
Nice job @Menards Mark and @cabinet Bob
Remember, Menards asked the 200 to review the loco as it is, not as we want it to be.
@JD2035RR posted:Reminds me of how I dress for zoom calls - shirt and coat up top, and shorts on bottom.
Too funny! And here I am thinking that I'm the only one doing that! Shhhhh, don't tell my staff! LOL!
@prrhorseshoecurve posted:For anyone who has this model for testing, can we get a picture comparison of this model vs a Williams/Kusan F7, especially the front nose area!
Just so you know, they will look nothing alike. That F7 has the poorest rendering of the EMD F-unit noses. It’s too straight and two long.
I commented on this previously, but dont know the r&d required to make this engine less jumpy. Without a speed controller/odyssey can the motors be tinkered with without a major cost increase. If it can be I would strongly urge menards to do so. If not, they still have a home run for entry level first time buyers.
@Rusty Traque posted:It goes from 0 to 10,000 Ohms resistance. Seeing the low range would be essentially the same on a bigger pot (say a 100K) I'm not sure if it would effect the low speed/stop operation. The locomotive board could simply shut down after a certain low voltage is reached.
Rusty
I captured these two images from this thread and best as I could, attempted to follow traces. As far as I can tell one side of pot is grounded, negative, and other side goes to positive battery side. So the pot voltage goes from zero to full battery voltage. The chip knows what the full value is at this moment, therefore what half value midpoint should be. As you turn the knob, the chip would know from zero to midpoint OFF is reverse, from midpoint OFF to full voltage is forward. The voltage value would tell it how fast to run loco either way . (follow this??) Appears the chip also does the RF?? Can't read the chip part number.
Bottom line, changing the pot value would/should not change how fast or slow the loco stops.
Apologizes for going off topic technically. Just my 2 cents contribution.
If it's a center detent pot, I doubt one side is grounded. These pots are usually 20% tolerance, so it would be a crap shoot at knowing the voltage drop through the wiper. Since center is "off" it seems like it would need a better reference of the idle state.
@rplst8 posted:If it's a center detent pot, I doubt one side is grounded. These pots are usually 20% tolerance, so it would be a crap shoot at knowing the voltage drop through the wiper. Since center is "off" it seems like it would need a better reference of the idle state.
Good point, but I think this is just an off the shelf linear pot by looks, made by Alpha, so it was my guess as to how the designers might have been thinking to do forward reverse and speed. IC looks a PIC or similar micros.
I just threw this in just as information. Really don't want this thread to veer off into the remote technical weeds (bottom line, it works for what it was designed to do at this price point). Lets keep it to postings that concern loco dimensions, mechanical, speed, failures, design oopsies etc
Feel free to post me off line, my email in profile.
It would be very nice, if Mark or someone would come on to the "O" Gauge Forum and answer questions regarding this new diesel. I'm very excited to see Menards trying their hand at motive power.
@Craftech posted:Thanks Roy,
Did you try:
1. Turn down Marx transformer power fully
2. Turn remote power full Forward
3. Operate loco at various speeds just using the transformer
4. Repeat for Reverse? Have not tried reverse with a long train.
John
That's essentially how I run the loco. Remote all or most of the way up. Varying track power is the only way to get a graceful start and stop with this loco.
I have not disassembled mine yet (too much real work to do) but if the worm gear and the worm wheel are plastic, this loco will die quickly once in general service.
@Daniel Bobrovsky posted:So what does a 10K Pot mean, and what would be better in its place to improve the low speed control?
Thanks
Dan
This ten K pot is probably linear taper.
It would be better with a reverse logarithmic taper pot, if such a thing exists. The first steps off of neutral would have very slight difference, while the farther away from neutral, each click would have a bigger difference. Kind of like variable ratio steering on a car.
That's the cheapest way to fix it, if indeed there is no PIC and associated firm ware to rewrite. If there is a PIC, then rewriting the firm ware is the first thing to try.
Flywheels on the motors would help a lot also.
As I mentioned earlier, if the worm and the worm wheel are plastic, they will not last long with this type of abuse. Putting your mind down to a microscopic level, these severe starts and stops put huge loads on the gears.
It's possible that the design engineers are more familiar with overhead fans, or mood lights, or slot cars, than they are with the physics/dynamics of trains pulling cars around curves and such.
@jim sutter posted:It would be very nice, if Mark or someone would come on to the "O" Gauge Forum and answer questions regarding this new diesel. I'm very excited to see Menards trying their hand at motive power.
I suspect Mark is busy analyzing the feedback from buyers right now. Obviously, some things will change in the design based on that feedback. Frankly, the questions that could be posed here might overwhelm the small design team that’s already neck deep in this project at the moment.
Wow, 12 pages in just a few days, I really like BNSF MATTs 30 minute video and explanation about the new inexpensive offering by Menards, a beautiful to view F3 or F7, diesel. I think Mark, the Menards representative has lots of food for thought on what would make this entry level toy train a successful candidate to model railroaders, or those folks entering the hobby. Quality control on both the engine and the remote. It needs variable speed control and should work in conventional mode. Possibly a better horn, other than those ideas, it should be an inexpensive fix. Definitely look at the packaging. Now, I must say, it’s a beautiful beginning for a company with a lot to offer us train buffs. Thank you BNSF MAtt, great review. Happy Railroading Everyone
The funny (or not so funny) part is that a starter engine from Menard's will be about the same price as the former MTH barn structure now offered by Lionel! 
I just realized something that maybe should have occurred to me earlier. Might Mark and company be under pressure to get modifications designed and implemented in time to have the new locomotive in the stores for the Christmas selling season?
For Menards, the seasonal toy department opens in early October. That’s an aggressive goal, if true.
@Jim R. posted:I just realized something that maybe should have occurred to me earlier. Might Mark and company be under pressure to get modifications designed and implemented in time to have the new locomotive in the stores for the Christmas selling season?
For Menards, the seasonal toy department opens in early October. That’s an aggressive goal, if true.
That’s an interesting thought. They might be using the feedback here to decide whether or not to go through with it at all.
@leapinlarry posted:Wow, 12 pages in just a few days, I really like BNSF MATTs 30 minute video and explanation about the new inexpensive offering by Menards, a beautiful to view F3 or F7, diesel. I think Mark, the Menards representative has lots of food for thought on what would make this entry level toy train a successful candidate to model railroaders, or those folks entering the hobby. Quality control on both the engine and the remote. It needs variable speed control and should work in conventional mode. Possibly a better horn, other than those ideas, it should be an inexpensive fix. Definitely look at the packaging. Now, I must say, it’s a beautiful beginning for a company with a lot to offer us train buffs. Thank you BNSF MAtt, great review. Happy Railroading Everyone
Thank you Larry.
I wonder if one of these 200 pieces will show up on the internet for resale. Than would be a real bummer. I have the highest regards for Menards. I have 10 of there buildings on my layout including the first two they made--the 2 big operating buildings with sound. They have operated flawlessly. I don't think that very many of them were made.
@Jim R. posted:I just realized something that maybe should have occurred to me earlier. Might Mark and company be under pressure to get modifications designed and implemented in time to have the new locomotive in the stores for the Christmas selling season?
For Menards, the seasonal toy department opens in early October. That’s an aggressive goal, if true.
Jim I think to bring it to market for the Christmas season is a very unrealistic goal. I'm thinking spring 2022 at best.
@rrman posted:I captured these two images from this thread and best as I could, attempted to follow traces. As far as I can tell one side of pot is grounded, negative, and other side goes to positive battery side. So the pot voltage goes from zero to full battery voltage. The chip knows what the full value is at this moment, therefore what half value midpoint should be. As you turn the knob, the chip would know from zero to midpoint OFF is reverse, from midpoint OFF to full voltage is forward. The voltage value would tell it how fast to run loco either way . (follow this??) Appears the chip also does the RF?? ***Can't read the chip part number.
Bottom line, changing the pot value would/should not change how fast or slow the loco stops.
Apologizes for going off topic technically. Just my 2 cents contribution.
I took another two photos of the bottom of the PCB and am posting them here along with the original two photos of the top of the PCB which I posted earlier: BTW: The part number is not on the chip. It is blank. It may be on the PCB underneath it.
John
Wow. Missed out on this one. Hope Menards does a re-run soon.
Menards is a Big Box lumber/hardware/
building material, etc, store.
The toy train products are a sideline. I don't believe Menards aspires to be Williams, Weaver, Lionel, or MTH.
I have been thrilled to find rolling stock, and buildings at a pricepoint that makes this hobby affordable to all incomes.
The Menards market strategy of selling trains and hardware is a wonderful nostalgic idea. I find myself checking out the trains every trip for hardware.
I don't own one of these new F3/FP7/%^*.
I will when they restock.
So...my evaluation is based on the response of persons on this forum and personal satisfaction with previous Menards products.
Menards; If you don't change anything on this locomotive...I WILL buy one.
I am not interested in it being TMCC, DCC.
I don't need any Dolby hydrophobic bass sound. No...don't need a proto coupler or smoke ( diesels that smoke need repair).
At this price point this is a nice O gauge toy that has plenty of play value just as it is. Packaging is blister pack and that's been in use by N and HO gauge for years.
My 2 cents is:
don't cater to the "more is better" crowd.
" More is better" COSTS $$$.
I personally like the idea of being able to take my grand daughter and grand son to Menards to buy a basic toy train that doesn't break the bank. At the price this diesel was sold for the kids can handle it themselves and grandpa can teach them the basics and gradually let them play with the more expensive collection.
Lionel cornered the market on the word " Legacy".
Menards is selling toy trains and equipment to help keep this hobby affordable and further the "Legacy" .
So...as is..Menards
WELL DONE!
keep them comming.
I will be sending formal comments to the email requested, but I received my locomotive last night and I must say it is a horrible F3!
However, it is an awesome FP7 Hope to get some play time to run it soon this weekend.
Photos next to my Sunset FP7 Not comparing them other than length and basic details, but dollar for dollar this is a really nice locomotive.
I think Menards may be thinking sets for Christmas.
@GG1 4877 posted:I will be sending formal comments to the email requested, but I received my locomotive last night and I must say it is a horrible F3!
However, it is an awesome FP7
Photos next to my Sunset FP7 Not comparing them other than length and basic details, but dollar for dollar this is a really nice locomotive.
Thank you for the comparison photo's. It reinforces what I've been saying all along that it's an FP7.
If Menards winds up being reluctant to change the labeling, perhaps as someone else suggested, just call it an F-Unit. Now if they could improve on the reported start/stop issues, they'd really have something.
Plus, over the years I've been a model railroader I've seen worse renditions of F-units in other scales.
Rusty
I received mine and, like all others, am very pleasantly surprised by my F....erm...yeah not 3.
It has good play value. The variety of announcements is awesome.
There are 2 areas that really need improvement....
The horn is horrible, since there's only a short anemic beep no matter how long you depress the horn button that sounds more like someone stepped on the dog's chewed up squeaky toy).
There is a definite lack of speed control. It's stop, jump to speed, and very little variation thereafter (at least on mine when it's pulling cars). I've found myself looking to see if any cars came off the track after the rather abrupt starts/stops.
The engine was able to pull a 10 car consist on a 4% grade, so that's decent power!
Picked my "F Unit" up today at my local Menards! Here are my pics showing the same issues many are reporting about scuffs on the top of the shell, remote battery tabs needed adjustment. The Horn is weak and should get an adjustment. But if you tap it quickly repeatedly you can get a sort of continuous long blast. But I think it could be easily and inexpensively fixed based on everyone's comments. and I would like to see better light diffusion behind the number plate, another fix I don't think would be a costly change.
But for the price I am extremely happy with the unit overall. It runs like a champ, I was happy with Bell and Crew talk. I was also very happy with the engine sounds stepping up and down with the throttle control. My throttle response with the control was very good, I could notice the speed changes with each notch change. And if you bring the the unit to a stop by letting it slow down to the last notch, I didn't notice much of an issue with the sudden stop causing a derailment. Also I throttled back on the track power and by doing that you can really get it to slow down well and good without much an issue. Yes a flywheel would be a great add, but at the price range, I can deal with it just fine.
I too wouldn't mind continuing the red paint on the top side vents, but maybe its increased cost to paint partial, so again for about 130 bucks I can deal!! Would be happy to buy many more engines at the rate Mendards is progressing, I think this is great!
I received my unit this evening and run some quick tests on it. Thanks to everyone here that got theirs before me I was prepared for the remote not working and could fix it right away. Hadn't seen too many comments on if it could handle grades so I ran it on my 042 loop that has a 3% grade on it. All my runs were done with my MRC 601 set to 10 volts on the meter. This was chosen as initial testing showed it would run well at this setting without too violent of starts and stops. I did not see any slow downs or speed ups on my 3% grades. Overall I think Menard's has a winner here!
Here is a quick video of my initial runs, the video seems a little jerky, but it actually ran very smooth.
@wild mary posted:i see no problem with running it "CONVENTIONAL". You simply set the remote "+" to "MAX" and vary the track voltage via your transformer. Am I wrong?
Could one of our BETA testers confirm whether or not the loco can be run conventional from the transformer by setting the remote yo MAX? Thanks guys.
My transformer starts at 5 volts so the loco may creep a little, but yes it does work this way. The transformer will not change directions or operate the bell or horn though, still need the remote for that.
The sudden start, sudden stop issue, IMO, is fixable. While a flywheel would help the stopping, (coasting?), it doesn’t fix the sudden start. Could this overall issue be fixed with capacitors? ( the more electronic literate should correct me if I’m wrong). The momentum switch on some older HO transformers come to mind.
Steve
The jackrabbit start can be somewhat overcome by backing the transformer power down. It does not need 18V. Take a look.
Steve
What's the deal on the number boards? Is that a red LED?
@johnstrains looks orange close-up but yeah. definitely not white.
I played with the jackrabbit starts. Turning the transformer down to 13v (where some command equipment will not run), the jolt of starting/stopping becomes acceptable.
Also at 13v on the transformer, the engine will just make it up a 4% grade with cars in tow. Note the throttle level in the video of the train climbing a 4% grade; turning the throttle up any higher does not result in a faster up-hill ascent speed. Also note at the speed increase of the train at the end of the videos the weight of the train crests the rise (the front end of the train at the top is on flat track at this point). To be expected.
ps. not bashing Menards. My email to them began with "THANK YOU" and this is a really nice starter engine. The price is phenomenal. Would I buy another engine from them? DEFINITELY YES. I really don't care how they label the engine. The only 2 tweaks I'd suggest is the too-brief horn (only 1 sec long on mine and no way to lengthen the horn blow) and adjusting the start speed so it doesn't jump into motion at 18v. I did not have any issues with the remote control at all. I suggested they include a link to a web page for a brief "how to setup and operate your engine" for people who are brand new to the hobby.
Thanks for the follow up Scott V!
What is wrong with some of these people? Pick pick pick. It's a starter set engine, I give Menards an A+ for offering it.
Considering the simplicity of the electronics and the all or nothing speed control, could Menards possibly bought the controller from one of the inexpensive r/c car manufacturers like say New Bright? Those cars don't run with 18 volts, more in the line of 6-12 volts.
If that's the case, the addition of a battery pack and a DPDT switch and you have a dead rail locomotive. Track or battery power.
Scott V. That Consist is definitely "Santa Fe All The Way"
@Jim 1939 posted:What is wrong with some of these people? Pick pick pick. It's a starter set engine, I give Menards an A+ for offering it.
I'm with you, Jim! This is a first effort from Menards in terms of motive power, and they deserve a whole lot of credit for even dipping their toes into this pond. Folks need to chill a bit and let them work on things after this beta test. Lots of good/useful feedback provided by you forum members in this long thread, and I'm confident the Menard's product development people will welcome that input.
@Allan Miller posted:I'm with you, Jim! This is a first effort from Menards in terms of motive power, and they deserve a whole lot of credit for even dipping their toes into this pond. Folks need to chill a bit and let them work on things after this beta test. Lots of good/useful feedback provided by you forum members in this long thread, and I'm confident the Menard's product development people will welcome that input.
I'm still staggering under the load of absorbing the fact that Menard's actually did jump into motive power, I truthfully never thought it would happen.
The engine appears to have a pair of Mabuchi RS385s found in the majority of O scale engines from Railkings to Legacy. They should easily handle the loads so far pictured easily. Hopefully the next run uses flywheel equipped versions and the jump starts are addressed. Too bad there isn’t a Menards near me. I would have picked one up at the introductory price just to play with it but at close to an additional 50 bucks to get it me it was hard to justify, maybe if was a NYC lightning stripe.
Pete
I was fortunate enough to receive one of the engines, and was so disappointed last evening to get it home and the remote would not function. However, thanks so much for the tip on bending the positive connectors on the remote's battery compartment and it works! I actually have found that by placing the remote to full forward, I can hook this to two postwar Lionel Santa Fe engines with their e units locked in forward and they work together well conventionally! Another tip mentioned hitting the horn button several times fast produces a long horn sound. Its a winner!
@Ron_S I let it run for an hour on its own traveling up and down the 18ft of 4% grade... the shell was mildly warm to the touch near the motor.
some "night-time" run fun.
oh, and the HOA needs to issue letters to the community to remove those holiday lights .. (I forgot to turn those off and just leave the interior lights on).
@Norton posted:The engine appears to have a pair of Mabuchi RS385s found in the majority of O scale engines from Railkings to Legacy. They should easily handle the loads so far pictured easily. Hopefully the next run uses flywheel equipped versions and the jump starts are addressed. Too bad there isn’t a Menards near me. I would have picked one up at the introductory price just to play with it but at close to an additional 50 bucks to get it me it was hard to justify, maybe if was a NYC lightning stripe.
Pete
These were not on the shelf in stores, online only.
No doubt in my mind that Menards will be releasing more very affordable great operating engines in the future. The bugs will be corrected. It’s obvious the Ogauge market needs low costs products that one can purchase without damaging their household budget. I personally don’t own any Menards products but sure am happy to see them offer low cost terrific products that help everybody have fun with this great hobby.
I have been controlling my O gauge 2 rail and 3 rail with Variacs for years. These are the 0-120 volt Variacs connected to a transformer which is 0-24 volts with one set of leads to a rectifier for DC and the other leads to three rail track. I added a line fuse to both sets of leads and a to the DPDT DC leads. This may sound cumberson but due to the much higher wrapping of windings on the Variac Rheostat you can run your scale and 3-rail locomotives at much lower speeds. Even my post-war 2025 creeps along pull a long consist of Kusan cars!
@Tom Platten posted:I have been controlling my O gauge 2 rail and 3 rail with Variacs for years. These are the 0-120 volt Variacs connected to a transformer which is 0-24 volts with one set of leads to a rectifier for DC and the other leads to three rail track. I added a line fuse to both sets of leads and a to the DPDT DC leads. This may sound cumberson but due to the much higher wrapping of windings on the Variac Rheostat you can run your scale and 3-rail locomotives at much lower speeds. Even my post-war 2025 creeps along pull a long consist of Kusan cars!
This sounds very interesting Tom, I would like to see your setup running.
In the early days of model railroading many used variacs for train control, even some passenger car batteries were used.
In the old days some communities had DC, some had AC so a model rail had to use his ingenuity to get things running!
@wild mary posted:Could one of our BETA testers confirm whether or not the loco can be run conventional from the transformer by setting the remote yo MAX? Thanks guys.
As I mentioned earlier, that's how I run mine. It's the only way the loco will start and stop gracefully.
My TPC system goes down to zero, or almost.
A couple of points based on recent responses.
Yes, by turning the input voltage down, the locomotive runs much slower, which helps the abruptness somewhat what. Mine ran at less than 8 volts. But it still cuts out suddenly, unlike any other locomotive I have. That’s correctable, and I’m certain Menards will consider it.
Concerning conventional operations, when people ask if this runs conventionally, they mean can you operate it without a remote. Remotes can get lost, broken and burdensome. This current design makes the locomotive dependent on the remote. That’s not ideal. But I’m not sure how much a remote/conventional switch would add to the cost. Menards may address that issue, but if the goal is to keep this priced at less than $150, it might not be deemed doable.
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