These are the things we need to know and learn, so when thinking of purchasing one, we know if our layout supports it. I personally run a Z4000 and a ROW 400 transformer with a Z250 for accessories.
The club layout, where 2 members who purchased one will run it, is strictly powered by Z4000, MRC and Z1000, Z750.
@Craftech posted:1. Turned up the track voltage on my tubular track layout (measured with an AC voltmeter) with KW throttle till it read 18v center to outside rail.
2. Placed engine on track and plugged in KW. Engine started.
3. Turned on remote. Light came on, sound level adjusted with remote volume control.
4. Moved forward no problem, ran a few feet, and then it tripped the circuit breaker I have in line with rails. The breaker is rated at 7.5A (Sensata breaker).
5. Disconnected everything except power to a single lockon. Same thing after a few feet.
6. Turned voltage down to around 16v. Tripped the breaker after short run again.
7. Connected different accessory terminals to track, but I could not get a reading on my voltmeter at the track so I was afraid to try the engine that way. I have never connected the accessory terminals to the track before anyway.
8. Next step is to make a circle with some Menards tubular track, connect power to it, and try it again. If that doesn't work I will get an 18v DC power supply and try that on my tubular track. Positive to center rail, negative to one of the outside rails.\
John
I suspect a momentary short that happens when engine moves. Check wires to the trucks for abrasions or missing heat shrink tubing. Or a pickup rollers are unevenly round or holder warpped and touching the truck frame.
@rrman posted:I suspect a momentary short that happens when engine moves. Check wires to the trucks for abrasions or missing heat shrink tubing. Or a pickup rollers are unevenly round or holder warpped and touching the truck frame.
I'll probably do that tomorrow. What I did so far was done in a rush which is not how I like to work. But thanks for the advice. I think a separate track setup is a better bet for a fair evaluation. I have a lot of those breakers as well as TVS diodes to protect the Menards engine. The breakers pop immediately whenever there is a short (derailment). Great peace of mind.
But I may use a laptop DC power supply connected to tubular track first. Works great on my grandson's Lion Chief Fastrack setup - better than the wall wart it came with. I would test it on his layout, but he lives 2 hours from me and I am pretty sure others are testing it with similar setups.
So angry at our loathsome post office. Following the tracking it seems my diesel went from the airport distribution center to a neighboring post office to my post office and then back to the neighboring post office. And now its back at the distribution center. Grrrr!
I received my Sante Fe F3 today. The loco powers up and makes sounds. However when I opened the remote to put the 3 AAA batteries in I found that there were no positive battery contacts installed in the remote so it won’t work. Definitely some QC problems related to the remote. I guess I have to figure out how to get a RMA to return it to Menards.
@Landsteiner posted:"And a big price jump compared to the other LionChief diesels too."
Those diesels Norton is linking to aren't LionChief, they are LionChief + 2.0. Unlike simple LionChief (and the Menard's loco), they operate in conventional, Bluetooth, LionChief and TMCC modes. They have more scale details, electrocouplers, full Railsounds, etc. They are more like a TMCC loco from some years ago, or even Legacy than resembling a LionChief loco. Apples and oranges
. $200 street price (single loco) vs. $600 (and that's for an A-A or A-B pair). I know people get a lot of pleasure at pointing out Lionel's "exorbitant prices," but let's try to be accurate and fair
My apologies, I was comparing those F3's to the RS3's, which apparently still have the original LionChief. However I will disagree on the part about detail, because those F3's are (for the most part) still the traditional Postwar F3's. Plus, the second locomotive is a dummy, so I'm not sure how much of a price jump that warrants, especially up to $600-700.
OK, mine arrived this afternoon. I only had enough time to test run it, but here are some supplemental observations on top of what has already been revealed by forum members who also purchased these.
First, it does appear to be an FP7, minus the four louvers that are a telltale sign of such cab units from EMD. I checked dimensional data from Model Railroader Cyclopedia Volume 2 Diesel Locomotives to confirm the length coupler face to face (54’ 8”). Because O gauge couplers are oversized, I then measured the Menards locomotive from pilot to rear wall (53 feet) using a scale ruler. I then cross-checked it using the same measurement on an N scale Kato FP7, a meticulously scaled model. It measured 53 feet as well.
I also eyeballed the nose contour against the Kato unit, which again has been universally praised as accurate. The Menards unit compared well, spoiled only a bit by the indented pilot design. (O gauge manufacturers frequently get this contour wrong, dating back to Lionel’s postwar F3.)
Check the closeups of the Kato model and the Menards model.
Then I did something that certainly won’t be my routine. I tested it on my 3-by-8-foot home layout featuring O-27 track and curves and a 90-degree crossing. It ran flawlessly, at least without any cars attached. So, yes, no problem with O-31.
Problems? Yes. The remote. Sure enough, like earlier reviewers noted, the battery contact strips were not reaching the positive poles on the batteries, thereby providing no power to the remote. The problem is that the batteries are actually contained in a plastic compartment with plastic slots on the positive ends to secure the batteries firmly. The metal strips (with the pole nubs) simply don’t reach far enough into those slots to make contact with the battery nubs. The battery fits tightly, but that’s misleading because of the design. The solution, as stated by others, is to simply bend the metal strips inward.
The packaging did result in minor abrasions behind the horns of the body, and the bosses (posts) into which the body screws secure the body to the frame are cast in such a way that they create small dimples atop the diesel’s nose. This is a casting problem, not a mold problem.
The running characteristics are as others have reported. I tested it with a Lionel BW-80 controller and brick. You can see for yourself how it ran in this short video.
I love the look of this model and like the way it runs, but it’s as basic as Menards intended for the price. Here’s a sideshot of the Menards locomotive behind the Kato FP7.
@Jim R. posted:Then I did something that certainly won’t be my routine. I tested it on my 3-by-8-foot home layout featuring O-27 track and curves and a 90-degree crossing. It ran flawlessly, at least without any cars attached. So, yes, no problem with O-31.
The running characteristics are as others have reported. I tested it with a Lionel BW-80 controller and brick.
So did you turn it up and measure the track voltage? Turn it up all the way?
http://www.lionel.com/products...rcontroller-6-14003/
John
Is the loco used? The roller looks like it has a couple miles on it!
I was happy to be a tester and plan a more detailed report after further testing.
You don't need 18 volts on the track.
Everything on mine worked like it should. The loco's top was scraped of its paint, as others have stated and one ornamental horn was off, rattling around in the box.
The first test was on the O-42 board for under the Christmas tree. (the tree is gone, but the train board is still in the living room). That track is powered by prewar Marx 729 (toaster) pure sine wave transformers.
Train was 8 Marx cars of the six inch variety. The only way I could keep the cars from derailing at the stop was to lower the remote to just before stop, then lower the track power with the transformer.
Took the loco to the attic layout. It's around 12' x 15' in a letter "P" formation. Track is O-27 profile and O-54 diameter. Power is a homemade brick running through a TPC 300 and TMCC Command base. Layout is mostly level (as level as the floor I installed) and no switches.
Train is 18 mostly old scale sized freight cars all equipped with modern diecast trucks with needle bearings. A long train, but a light and easy pull. The best way to run the train with the Menards loco was with only FOUR volts on the track (the analog voltage meters are probably not reading the chopped waveform accurately). Still it was hard to bring the train to a stop without derailing a car, usually a lightweight tank car. This same train with different locos, has been running perfectly on this same track for over three years.
I like the loco except for two things:
1. It stops dead, dead, dead. The best fix for this is flywheels. But, for less cost, maybe they could reprogram the firmware so that speed steps closer to zero are very small, then the steps get bigger as the control knob is turned farther from zero.
2. Plastic gears. Modern plastic gears are OK if they rotate loosely on their shafts. But plastic gears fixed or press fit onto a steel shaft always seem to crack. If the worm gear and the worm wheel are plastic, that is a deal breaker for me, even at this price point. And the loco will not last long in the hands of someone with challenged/undeveloped hand coordination.
Just look at all those beautiful David O. King locos made in the 80's with plastic worm gears and worm wheels. All the ones I have seen are cracked and unusable.
@RoyBoy posted:You don't need 18 volts on the track.
The first test was on the O-42 board for under the Christmas tree. (the tree is gone, but the train board is still in the living room). That track is powered by prewar Marx 729 (toaster) pure sine wave transformers.
Train was 8 Marx cars of the six inch variety. The only way I could keep the cars from derailing at the stop was to lower the remote to just before stop, then lower the track power with the transformer.
Can you explain? How did you determine the voltage to use. You left it 'fixed' correct?
What voltage did you set the 729?
Thanks,
John
@ChooChoo1972 posted:I received my Sante Fe F3 today. The loco powers up and makes sounds. However when I opened the remote to put the 3 AAA batteries in I found that there were no positive battery contacts installed in the remote so it won’t work. Definitely some QC problems related to the remote. I guess I have to figure out how to get a RMA to return it to Menards.
Unfortunately, Menards will probably refund money as they won't have any extra remotes to give out. Probably too hard to fashion a copper metal strip with enough springiness to reliably touch the battery tips.
Bummer. 
Hope Menards Mark is jotting down all the pluses and negatives. Wonder if Lionel and MTH and others had the same teething problems with first generation of x loco?? 
@Craftech posted:Can you explain? How did you determine the voltage to use. You left it 'fixed' correct?
What voltage did you set the 729?
Thanks,
John
I ran with different voltages and got a feel for how the loco responded with its train at different voltages of track power.
The Marx 729 tops out at 13 volts. Turn on is either 5 or 7 volts. Can't remember.
I ran the Christmas layout at full throttle on the Marx, and about half handle. But I did not measure the track voltage. The loco seemed happier at lower track voltage.
Remember that any of these China drive motor locos are real rockets at full throttle.
The attic layout has a small tower with two cheap analog AC volt meters. In the attic, the loco ran best (I don't run a long train fast) at about 4 volts on the analog meter. Even at only four volts indicated, it was hard to start and stop the train without derailing a car.
I actually ran the train using both track power and remote knob.
To get the loco to stop the train with any sense of grace, I had to turn the remote down as far as it would go before stopping the loco, then "land" the whole thing by reducing track power.
Both the Marx transformers and the Lionel TPC have much finer control than the remote knob.
Have I answered the question?
@Craftech posted:So did you turn it up and measure the track voltage? Turn it up all the way?
http://www.lionel.com/products...rcontroller-6-14003/
John
Nah. Just used the same variable AC throttle setting I use for all remote-function diesels, including LionChief, LionChief Plus and MTH Protosound 2 and 3 (with app control). The approximate voltage is 16 volts.
@rrman posted:Unfortunately, Menards will probably refund money as they won't have any extra remotes to give out. Probably too hard to fashion a copper metal strip with enough springiness to reliably touch the battery tips.
Bummer.
Hope Menards Mark is jotting down all the pluses and negatives. Wonder if Lionel and MTH and others had the same teething problems with first generation of x loco??
Hobby shops have strip brass in different widths and thicknesses. You just have to cut them to length, give them a slight bend, and slide them in.
The springs are on the negative side and what I am hearing is missing are the contacts on the positive side. Much easier to replace.
@RoyBoy posted:Hobby shops have strip brass in different widths and thicknesses. You just have to cut them to length, give them a slight bend, and slide them in.
The springs are on the negative side and what I am hearing is missing are the contacts on the positive side. Much easier to replace.
Even better, reduce the price by removing the remote and make it compatible to Lionel’s Universal remote.
@RoyBoy posted:I ran with different voltages and got a feel for how the loco responded with its train at different voltages of track power.
The Marx 729 tops out at 13 volts. Turn on is either 5 or 7 volts. Can't remember.
I ran the Christmas layout at full throttle on the Marx, and about half handle. But I did not measure the track voltage. The loco seemed happier at lower track voltage.
Remember that any of these China drive motor locos are real rockets at full throttle.
The attic layout has a small tower with two cheap analog AC volt meters. In the attic, the loco ran best (I don't run a long train fast) at about 4 volts on the analog meter. Even at only four volts indicated, it was hard to start and stop the train without derailing a car.
I actually ran the train using both track power and remote knob.
To get the loco to stop the train with any sense of grace, I had to turn the remote down as far as it would go before stopping the loco, then "land" the whole thing by reducing track power.
Both the Marx transformers and the Lionel TPC have much finer control than the remote knob.
Have I answered the question?
Thanks Roy,
Did you try:
1. Turn down Marx transformer power fully
2. Turn remote power full Forward
3. Operate loco at various speeds just using the transformer
4. Repeat for Reverse?
John
@Jim R. posted:Nah. Just used the same variable AC throttle setting I use for all remote-function diesels, including LionChief, LionChief Plus and MTH Protosound 2 and 3 (with app control). The approximate voltage is 16 volts.
OK thanks Jim
John
Great observation, Rusty!!
@brr posted:
Is the loco used? The roller looks like it has a couple miles on it!
I noticed the roller wear as well after I posted the photos. It looked like that out of the packaging. Maybe it was test run at the factory?
The SOO LINE had 8 road numbers for the FP7A and two major paint schemes for them.
You could produce a new one every 4 months and not have to repeat the SOO LINE paint scheme and number combination for several years.
https://sooline.dieselrosters....o-Motive%2BDiesel%2B(EMD)&manufacturerid=3&unittype=FP%2B7A
Hopefully you will have the electronics that will allow two A units to be run together.
Andrew
@Madockawando posted:Even better, reduce the price by removing the remote and make it compatible to Lionel’s Universal remote.
If you want to use Lionel's remote so bad, buy a LIONEL! Lionel has not and most likely never will license Lionchief to anybody else! You are starting to give me a headache! LOL!
@RoyBoy posted:2. Plastic gears. Modern plastic gears are OK if they rotate loosely on their shafts. But plastic gears fixed or press fit onto a steel shaft always seem to crack. If the worm gear and the worm wheel are plastic, that is a deal breaker for me, even at this price point. And the loco will not last long in the hands of someone with challenged/undeveloped hand coordination.
FWIW, the ONLY fully functional Lionel loco I own--amid a group of LTI, LLC, TMCC, and Legacy engines--is my '70s 8020 MPC Alco with plastic drive gears. That loco has more hours/miles on it that all the others combined.
So Menard’s F-3 is actually an FP-7. It looks like a candidate for a Nacionales de Mexico paint job, since the N de M had a small fleet of them.
however, since only a minority of us have any interest in the N de M, I suspect that would require. custom after-market paint and decaying.
Matt your review was excellent. Seems like several others have trouble with the remote also.
BNSF matt,
Great review. You did a fine job. Everything was explained very well. Thank you.
@RoyBoy posted:1. It stops dead, dead, dead. The best fix for this is flywheels. But, for less cost, maybe they could reprogram the firmware so that speed steps closer to zero are very small, then the steps get bigger as the control knob is turned farther from zero.
I'm not sure there's any firmware to reprogram, I didn't see a microprocessor on photo's of the control board.
Rusty
Excellent job, Matt! You were really covered everything well!
Funny, I have modeled in HO, N, and O 3-rail for over 50 years, and I just refer to all of them simply as F-units.
@Mark Boyce posted:Excellent job, Matt! You were really covered everything well!
Funny, I have modeled in HO, N, and O 3-rail for over 50 years, and I just refer to all of them simply as F-units.
Thank you Mark, Jim, and Coach, I probably could have covered a few other items but 36 minutes was already a bit on the long side. I'm glad you enjoyed it.
@BNSF-Matt posted:Thank you Mark, Jim, and Coach, I probably could have covered a few other items but 36 minutes was already a bit on the long side. I'm glad you enjoyed it.
Matt, there is always something else. As a coworker used to say, “I keep turning over rocks and find something else every time’
@BNSF-Matt posted:Thank you Mark, Jim, and Coach, I probably could have covered a few other items but 36 minutes was already a bit on the long side. I'm glad you enjoyed it.
@Mark Boyce posted:Matt, there is always something else. As a coworker used to say, “I keep turning over rocks and find something else every time’
“Better is the enemy of good enough.”
@Jim R. posted:The running characteristics are as others have reported. I tested it with a Lionel BW-80 controller and brick. You can see for yourself how it ran in this short video.
I love the look of this model and like the way it runs, but it’s as basic as Menards intended for the price. Here’s a sideshot of the Menards locomotive behind the Kato FP7.
Thanks for that Jim. I really like your little layout! Your scenery and coloring is very nice.
I am a 2-railer but live in an RV currently so designing a small trolley/industrial layout. It can only be 2’ wide and I have about 12’ of length to work with but I must stow it all when not in use so it has to be designed with that in mind.
@Menards, you MUST complete painting the Warbonnet red w/stripes across the vents. It's not a question of prototype accuracy. As painted, the model looks goofy with the Warbonnet's graceful and colorful lines disrupted by the silver louvers.
@Russell - Idaho USA has posted the perfect profile shot to capture the problem.
What’s exciting to me is that Menards is Midwest. They make rolling stock in Burlington northern, Illinois, and rock island. If they start making engines with those road names, I’ll be ecstatic!!!
@Pingman posted:@Menards, you MUST complete painting the Warbonnet red w/stripes across the vents. It's not a question of prototype accuracy. As painted, the model looks goofy with the Warbonnet's graceful and colorful lines disrupted by the silver louvers.
@Russell - Idaho USA has posted the perfect profile shot to capture the problem.
Why should they? Unpainted stainless grilles are prototypical for an F7…
@Pingman posted:@Menards, you MUST complete painting the Warbonnet red w/stripes across the vents. It's not a question of prototype accuracy. As painted, the model looks goofy with the Warbonnet's graceful and colorful lines disrupted by the silver louvers.
@Russell - Idaho USA has posted the perfect profile shot to capture the problem.
Actually, if you look at prototype photos...
Rusty
@Rusty Traque posted:Menards is using the so-called "freight" pilot. Nothing wrong with that. It was fairly common on F units from the F3 to FL9.
Ontario Northland FP7:
Rusty
Yes, I have F units in multiple scales with that pilot. My point is that the nose contour looks so much nicer with the passenger pilot that’s aligned to complement that nose design. It wasn’t intended as a criticism or a suggestion that Menards got it wrong. In fact, I’m quite impressed with the scale accuracy — for an FP7 that is.
The only odd thing is the missing louvers. I’m curious about that.
I hope I didn’t miss it in this now 11-page thread, but does anybody recognize this shell? I can’t begin to express how surprised I would be if this was made from new tooling. That would represent a major commitment by Menards.
But I do not recognize this shell from any existing product. Yet Menards isn’t bragging about it being new tooling, like you would expect if it was.
I keep staring at mine hoping for an epiphany.
@Jim R. posted:The only odd thing is the missing louvers. I’m curious about that.
I noticed the missing louvers, too... There is stuff missing or incorrect on the model, but given this is an entry level locomotive and the detail level of Menards other train products, I wasn't going to drill down into the gory details.
Over all, the model captures the look an FP7 fairly nicely. I'm sure the target customer (assuming OGR people don't keep buying them out...
) will be satisfied with future releases.
Rusty
@chinatrain99 posted:What’s exciting to me is that Menards is Midwest. They make rolling stock in Burlington northern, Illinois, and rock island. If they start making engines with those road names, I’ll be ecstatic!!!
If Menards offers a Milwaukee Road unit, I’m all in again.
Go Friendly, and have a Black Widow set. (SP)
Has there ever been a locomotive release that caused this much excitement? 12 pages of discussion and counting…
Bravo to Menards for introducing a locomotive. I like it. I do hope they can offer better slow speed control on future releases. A better sounding horn would be a plus too.
Other suggestions - this model begs to be run as an A-A set. I hope they offer a dummy version. Paint a set in in Pennsy 5-stripe Tuscan and another in NYC passenger lightning stripe with silver trucks and I’m in for both!
Tracking claims that the USPS will actually deliver mine today. So, 4 days from WI to MD. Thanks for your efficiency improvements Mr. DeJoy. 
@Craftech posted:1. Turned up the track voltage on my tubular track layout (measured with an AC voltmeter) with KW throttle till it read 18v center to outside rail.
2. Placed engine on track and plugged in KW. Engine started.
3. Turned on remote. Light came on, sound level adjusted with remote volume control.
4. Moved forward no problem, ran a few feet, and then it tripped the circuit breaker I have in line with rails. The breaker is rated at 7.5A (Sensata breaker).
5. Disconnected everything except power to a single lockon. Same thing after a few feet.
6. Turned voltage down to around 16v. Tripped the breaker after short run again.
7. Connected different accessory terminals to track, but I could not get a reading on my voltmeter at the track so I was afraid to try the engine that way. I have never connected the accessory terminals to the track before anyway.
8. Next step is to make a circle with some Menards tubular track, connect power to it, and try it again. If that doesn't work I will get an 18v DC power supply and try that on my tubular track. Positive to center rail, negative to one of the outside rails.\
John
Follow-up:
1. Made an 0-36 circle from Menards tubular track
2. Using a lockon I attached the center rail to a 7.5A Sensata Circuit breaker and the breaker to the U Post on a Post War 1033 transformer. The outer rail went to the C post.
3. Immediately upon plugging in the 1033 the engine started.
4. After doing the usual bending of the battery terminals on the remote that came on too.
5. The engine ran around the circle continuously without tripping the breaker. The remote worked as others have been describing. Abrupt starts and stops, but otherwise no problem. Funky horn as described too. Importantly, this engine doesn't seem to like my normal setup and trips the breaker. I should examine my setup further.
6. As Jim and Roy have pointed out, it doesn't appear to need very many volts to operate. I varied the handle position on the 1033 and it didn't seem to make much of a difference. I may try it with a DC power supply as well.
As far as the abrupt starts and stops, if not the engine, maybe the remote. It has a 10K pot. Here is what it looks like. Nothing complicated about it.
John
In looking at the MSRP pricing in todays lionel catalog for diesels, its really refreshing to know someone's bringing more user friendly pricing to this guage/hobby! $499.99 for a superbass diesel which is a non powered shell with a sound board meantime the powered unit is only $100.00 more?
The final version of this O gauge/O scale FP7 diesel has to have a conventional transformer power mode board & switch, in case the remote is lost or will not operate.
Andrew
For anyone who has this model for testing, can we get a picture comparison of this model vs a Williams/Kusan F7, especially the front nose area!
@Craftech posted:Follow-up:
1. Made an 0-36 circle from Menards tubular track
2. Using a lockon I attached the center rail to a 7.5A Sensata Circuit breaker and the breaker to the U Post on a Post War 1033 transformer. The outer rail went to the C post.
3. Immediately upon plugging in the 1033 the engine started.
4. After doing the usual bending of the battery terminals on the remote that came on too.
5. The engine ran around the circle continuously without tripping the breaker. The remote worked as others have been describing. Abrupt starts and stops, but otherwise no problem. Funky horn as described too. Importantly, this engine doesn't seem to like my normal setup and trips the breaker. I should examine my setup further.
6. As Jim and Roy have pointed out, it doesn't appear to need very many volts to operate. I varied the handle position on the 1033 and it didn't seem to make much of a difference. I may try it with a DC power supply as well.
As far as the abrupt starts and stops, if not the engine, maybe the remote. It has a 10K pot. Here is what it looks like. Nothing complicated about it.
John
So what does a 10K Pot mean, and what would be better in its place to improve the low speed control?
Thanks
Dan
@falconservice posted:The final version of this O gauge/O scale FP7 diesel has to have a conventional transformer power mode board & switch, in case the remote is lost or will not operate.
Andrew
I feel the same way. Mainly because I have nearly all postwar and run conventionally. I would really like to add some inexpensive new engines to my layout.
I have recently purchased several of Menards rolling stock and I am pleased with them.
There are some of us out here that have small budgets to add things to our layouts each year. I feel this price point will allow me to add a couple new engines at once.
PRR and Reading please. 😊
@Daniel Bobrovsky posted:So what does a 10K Pot mean, and what would be better in its place to improve the low speed control?
Thanks
Dan
It goes from 0 to 10,000 Ohms resistance. Seeing the low range would be essentially the same on a bigger pot (say a 100K) I'm not sure if it would effect the low speed/stop operation. The locomotive board could simply shut down after a certain low voltage is reached.
Rusty
I'd like the record to show I've been calling this since 2017 
: https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/...64#74213916758512664
I think it's amazing and awesome that Menards is getting into motive power. I'm a conventional guy with a couple of Lionchief + and bluerail engines operating on 031. I've also been wanting a War Bonnet for a while - so I would definitely see myself jumping in the ring on this one. This is a great value below $200.
My observations/feedback from just seeing it online:
1. The metallic trucks / fuel tank and the matte finish paint on the shell look strange together. Reminds me of how I dress for zoom calls - shirt and coat up top, and shorts on bottom. I would suggest a glossy paint finish on the shell or dull down the bottom half.
2. I agree it would be nice to run it conventionally as @falconservice mentions. Even if the switch was simply between remote and forward only. I can swap in an e-unit or different control system if really needed. I'd rather keep the initial cost down.
3. It does appear that the gears are plastic from one of the pics posted. The drive train should be metal gears and bullet proof. The additional cost for metal gears would be worth it.
4. Rename it as an FP7 as others have mentioned. Casual O Gauge guys would buy it either way because of the paint scheme. Scale-ish guys could sleep easier at night knowing they purchased and FP7 and not an out of scale F3.
5. Two motors - great value
6. Remote control - great - directly competing with Lionchief...volume dial is nice feature
7. Nice variety of phrases
8. Directional lighting - nice feature, great value
9. Rugged stamped-steel frame, Metal trucks with die-cast frame - durability is key
Nice job @Menards Mark and @cabinet Bob
@JD2035RR posted:I'd like the record to show I've been calling this since 2017
I think it's amazing and awesome that Menards is getting into motive power. I'm a conventional guy with a couple of Lionchief + and bluerail engines operating on 031. I've also been wanting a War Bonnet for a while - so I would definitely see myself jumping in the ring on this one. This is a great value below $200.
My observations/feedback from just seeing it online:
1. The metallic trucks / fuel tank and the matte finish paint on the shell look strange together. Reminds me of how I dress for zoom calls - shirt and coat up top, and shorts on bottom. I would suggest a glossy paint finish on the shell or dull down the bottom half.
2. I agree it would be nice to run it conventionally as @falconservice mentions. Even if the switch was simply between remote and forward only. I can swap in an e-unit or different control system if really needed. I'd rather keep the initial cost down.
3. It does appear that the gears are plastic from one of the pics posted. The drive train should be metal gears and bullet proof. The additional cost for metal gears would be worth it.
4. Rename it as an FP7 as others have mentioned. Casual O Gauge guys would buy it either way because of the paint scheme. Scale-ish guys could sleep easier at night knowing they purchased and FP7 and not an out of scale F3.
5. Two motors - great value
6. Remote control - great - directly competing with Lionchief...volume dial is nice feature
7. Nice variety of phrases
8. Directional lighting - nice feature, great value
9. Rugged stamped-steel frame, Metal trucks with die-cast frame - durability is key
Nice job @Menards Mark and @cabinet Bob
Remember, Menards asked the 200 to review the loco as it is, not as we want it to be.
@JD2035RR posted:Reminds me of how I dress for zoom calls - shirt and coat up top, and shorts on bottom.
Too funny! And here I am thinking that I'm the only one doing that! Shhhhh, don't tell my staff! LOL!
@prrhorseshoecurve posted:For anyone who has this model for testing, can we get a picture comparison of this model vs a Williams/Kusan F7, especially the front nose area!
Just so you know, they will look nothing alike. That F7 has the poorest rendering of the EMD F-unit noses. It’s too straight and two long.
I commented on this previously, but dont know the r&d required to make this engine less jumpy. Without a speed controller/odyssey can the motors be tinkered with without a major cost increase. If it can be I would strongly urge menards to do so. If not, they still have a home run for entry level first time buyers.
@Rusty Traque posted:It goes from 0 to 10,000 Ohms resistance. Seeing the low range would be essentially the same on a bigger pot (say a 100K) I'm not sure if it would effect the low speed/stop operation. The locomotive board could simply shut down after a certain low voltage is reached.
Rusty
I captured these two images from this thread and best as I could, attempted to follow traces. As far as I can tell one side of pot is grounded, negative, and other side goes to positive battery side. So the pot voltage goes from zero to full battery voltage. The chip knows what the full value is at this moment, therefore what half value midpoint should be. As you turn the knob, the chip would know from zero to midpoint OFF is reverse, from midpoint OFF to full voltage is forward. The voltage value would tell it how fast to run loco either way . (follow this??) Appears the chip also does the RF?? Can't read the chip part number.
Bottom line, changing the pot value would/should not change how fast or slow the loco stops.
Apologizes for going off topic technically. Just my 2 cents contribution.
If it's a center detent pot, I doubt one side is grounded. These pots are usually 20% tolerance, so it would be a crap shoot at knowing the voltage drop through the wiper. Since center is "off" it seems like it would need a better reference of the idle state.
@rplst8 posted:If it's a center detent pot, I doubt one side is grounded. These pots are usually 20% tolerance, so it would be a crap shoot at knowing the voltage drop through the wiper. Since center is "off" it seems like it would need a better reference of the idle state.
Good point, but I think this is just an off the shelf linear pot by looks, made by Alpha, so it was my guess as to how the designers might have been thinking to do forward reverse and speed. IC looks a PIC or similar micros.
I just threw this in just as information. Really don't want this thread to veer off into the remote technical weeds (bottom line, it works for what it was designed to do at this price point). Lets keep it to postings that concern loco dimensions, mechanical, speed, failures, design oopsies etc
Feel free to post me off line, my email in profile.
It would be very nice, if Mark or someone would come on to the "O" Gauge Forum and answer questions regarding this new diesel. I'm very excited to see Menards trying their hand at motive power.
@Craftech posted:Thanks Roy,
Did you try:
1. Turn down Marx transformer power fully
2. Turn remote power full Forward
3. Operate loco at various speeds just using the transformer
4. Repeat for Reverse? Have not tried reverse with a long train.
John
That's essentially how I run the loco. Remote all or most of the way up. Varying track power is the only way to get a graceful start and stop with this loco.
I have not disassembled mine yet (too much real work to do) but if the worm gear and the worm wheel are plastic, this loco will die quickly once in general service.
@Daniel Bobrovsky posted:So what does a 10K Pot mean, and what would be better in its place to improve the low speed control?
Thanks
Dan
This ten K pot is probably linear taper.
It would be better with a reverse logarithmic taper pot, if such a thing exists. The first steps off of neutral would have very slight difference, while the farther away from neutral, each click would have a bigger difference. Kind of like variable ratio steering on a car.
That's the cheapest way to fix it, if indeed there is no PIC and associated firm ware to rewrite. If there is a PIC, then rewriting the firm ware is the first thing to try.
Flywheels on the motors would help a lot also.
As I mentioned earlier, if the worm and the worm wheel are plastic, they will not last long with this type of abuse. Putting your mind down to a microscopic level, these severe starts and stops put huge loads on the gears.
It's possible that the design engineers are more familiar with overhead fans, or mood lights, or slot cars, than they are with the physics/dynamics of trains pulling cars around curves and such.
@jim sutter posted:It would be very nice, if Mark or someone would come on to the "O" Gauge Forum and answer questions regarding this new diesel. I'm very excited to see Menards trying their hand at motive power.
I suspect Mark is busy analyzing the feedback from buyers right now. Obviously, some things will change in the design based on that feedback. Frankly, the questions that could be posed here might overwhelm the small design team that’s already neck deep in this project at the moment.
Wow, 12 pages in just a few days, I really like BNSF MATTs 30 minute video and explanation about the new inexpensive offering by Menards, a beautiful to view F3 or F7, diesel. I think Mark, the Menards representative has lots of food for thought on what would make this entry level toy train a successful candidate to model railroaders, or those folks entering the hobby. Quality control on both the engine and the remote. It needs variable speed control and should work in conventional mode. Possibly a better horn, other than those ideas, it should be an inexpensive fix. Definitely look at the packaging. Now, I must say, it’s a beautiful beginning for a company with a lot to offer us train buffs. Thank you BNSF MAtt, great review. Happy Railroading Everyone
The funny (or not so funny) part is that a starter engine from Menard's will be about the same price as the former MTH barn structure now offered by Lionel! 
I just realized something that maybe should have occurred to me earlier. Might Mark and company be under pressure to get modifications designed and implemented in time to have the new locomotive in the stores for the Christmas selling season?
For Menards, the seasonal toy department opens in early October. That’s an aggressive goal, if true.
@Jim R. posted:I just realized something that maybe should have occurred to me earlier. Might Mark and company be under pressure to get modifications designed and implemented in time to have the new locomotive in the stores for the Christmas selling season?
For Menards, the seasonal toy department opens in early October. That’s an aggressive goal, if true.
That’s an interesting thought. They might be using the feedback here to decide whether or not to go through with it at all.
@leapinlarry posted:Wow, 12 pages in just a few days, I really like BNSF MATTs 30 minute video and explanation about the new inexpensive offering by Menards, a beautiful to view F3 or F7, diesel. I think Mark, the Menards representative has lots of food for thought on what would make this entry level toy train a successful candidate to model railroaders, or those folks entering the hobby. Quality control on both the engine and the remote. It needs variable speed control and should work in conventional mode. Possibly a better horn, other than those ideas, it should be an inexpensive fix. Definitely look at the packaging. Now, I must say, it’s a beautiful beginning for a company with a lot to offer us train buffs. Thank you BNSF MAtt, great review. Happy Railroading Everyone
Thank you Larry.
I wonder if one of these 200 pieces will show up on the internet for resale. Than would be a real bummer. I have the highest regards for Menards. I have 10 of there buildings on my layout including the first two they made--the 2 big operating buildings with sound. They have operated flawlessly. I don't think that very many of them were made.
@Jim R. posted:I just realized something that maybe should have occurred to me earlier. Might Mark and company be under pressure to get modifications designed and implemented in time to have the new locomotive in the stores for the Christmas selling season?
For Menards, the seasonal toy department opens in early October. That’s an aggressive goal, if true.
Jim I think to bring it to market for the Christmas season is a very unrealistic goal. I'm thinking spring 2022 at best.
@rrman posted:I captured these two images from this thread and best as I could, attempted to follow traces. As far as I can tell one side of pot is grounded, negative, and other side goes to positive battery side. So the pot voltage goes from zero to full battery voltage. The chip knows what the full value is at this moment, therefore what half value midpoint should be. As you turn the knob, the chip would know from zero to midpoint OFF is reverse, from midpoint OFF to full voltage is forward. The voltage value would tell it how fast to run loco either way . (follow this??) Appears the chip also does the RF?? ***Can't read the chip part number.
Bottom line, changing the pot value would/should not change how fast or slow the loco stops.
Apologizes for going off topic technically. Just my 2 cents contribution.
I took another two photos of the bottom of the PCB and am posting them here along with the original two photos of the top of the PCB which I posted earlier: BTW: The part number is not on the chip. It is blank. It may be on the PCB underneath it.
John
Wow. Missed out on this one. Hope Menards does a re-run soon.
Menards is a Big Box lumber/hardware/
building material, etc, store.
The toy train products are a sideline. I don't believe Menards aspires to be Williams, Weaver, Lionel, or MTH.
I have been thrilled to find rolling stock, and buildings at a pricepoint that makes this hobby affordable to all incomes.
The Menards market strategy of selling trains and hardware is a wonderful nostalgic idea. I find myself checking out the trains every trip for hardware.
I don't own one of these new F3/FP7/%^*.
I will when they restock.
So...my evaluation is based on the response of persons on this forum and personal satisfaction with previous Menards products.
Menards; If you don't change anything on this locomotive...I WILL buy one.
I am not interested in it being TMCC, DCC.
I don't need any Dolby hydrophobic bass sound. No...don't need a proto coupler or smoke ( diesels that smoke need repair).
At this price point this is a nice O gauge toy that has plenty of play value just as it is. Packaging is blister pack and that's been in use by N and HO gauge for years.
My 2 cents is:
don't cater to the "more is better" crowd.
" More is better" COSTS $$$.
I personally like the idea of being able to take my grand daughter and grand son to Menards to buy a basic toy train that doesn't break the bank. At the price this diesel was sold for the kids can handle it themselves and grandpa can teach them the basics and gradually let them play with the more expensive collection.
Lionel cornered the market on the word " Legacy".
Menards is selling toy trains and equipment to help keep this hobby affordable and further the "Legacy" .
So...as is..Menards
WELL DONE!
keep them comming.
I will be sending formal comments to the email requested, but I received my locomotive last night and I must say it is a horrible F3!
However, it is an awesome FP7 Hope to get some play time to run it soon this weekend.
Photos next to my Sunset FP7 Not comparing them other than length and basic details, but dollar for dollar this is a really nice locomotive.
I think Menards may be thinking sets for Christmas.
@GG1 4877 posted:I will be sending formal comments to the email requested, but I received my locomotive last night and I must say it is a horrible F3!
However, it is an awesome FP7
Photos next to my Sunset FP7 Not comparing them other than length and basic details, but dollar for dollar this is a really nice locomotive.
Thank you for the comparison photo's. It reinforces what I've been saying all along that it's an FP7.
If Menards winds up being reluctant to change the labeling, perhaps as someone else suggested, just call it an F-Unit. Now if they could improve on the reported start/stop issues, they'd really have something.
Plus, over the years I've been a model railroader I've seen worse renditions of F-units in other scales.
Rusty
I received mine and, like all others, am very pleasantly surprised by my F....erm...yeah not 3.
It has good play value. The variety of announcements is awesome.
There are 2 areas that really need improvement....
The horn is horrible, since there's only a short anemic beep no matter how long you depress the horn button that sounds more like someone stepped on the dog's chewed up squeaky toy).
There is a definite lack of speed control. It's stop, jump to speed, and very little variation thereafter (at least on mine when it's pulling cars). I've found myself looking to see if any cars came off the track after the rather abrupt starts/stops.
The engine was able to pull a 10 car consist on a 4% grade, so that's decent power!
Picked my "F Unit" up today at my local Menards! Here are my pics showing the same issues many are reporting about scuffs on the top of the shell, remote battery tabs needed adjustment. The Horn is weak and should get an adjustment. But if you tap it quickly repeatedly you can get a sort of continuous long blast. But I think it could be easily and inexpensively fixed based on everyone's comments. and I would like to see better light diffusion behind the number plate, another fix I don't think would be a costly change.
But for the price I am extremely happy with the unit overall. It runs like a champ, I was happy with Bell and Crew talk. I was also very happy with the engine sounds stepping up and down with the throttle control. My throttle response with the control was very good, I could notice the speed changes with each notch change. And if you bring the the unit to a stop by letting it slow down to the last notch, I didn't notice much of an issue with the sudden stop causing a derailment. Also I throttled back on the track power and by doing that you can really get it to slow down well and good without much an issue. Yes a flywheel would be a great add, but at the price range, I can deal with it just fine.
I too wouldn't mind continuing the red paint on the top side vents, but maybe its increased cost to paint partial, so again for about 130 bucks I can deal!! Would be happy to buy many more engines at the rate Mendards is progressing, I think this is great!
I received my unit this evening and run some quick tests on it. Thanks to everyone here that got theirs before me I was prepared for the remote not working and could fix it right away. Hadn't seen too many comments on if it could handle grades so I ran it on my 042 loop that has a 3% grade on it. All my runs were done with my MRC 601 set to 10 volts on the meter. This was chosen as initial testing showed it would run well at this setting without too violent of starts and stops. I did not see any slow downs or speed ups on my 3% grades. Overall I think Menard's has a winner here!
Here is a quick video of my initial runs, the video seems a little jerky, but it actually ran very smooth.
@wild mary posted:i see no problem with running it "CONVENTIONAL". You simply set the remote "+" to "MAX" and vary the track voltage via your transformer. Am I wrong?
Could one of our BETA testers confirm whether or not the loco can be run conventional from the transformer by setting the remote yo MAX? Thanks guys.
My transformer starts at 5 volts so the loco may creep a little, but yes it does work this way. The transformer will not change directions or operate the bell or horn though, still need the remote for that.
The sudden start, sudden stop issue, IMO, is fixable. While a flywheel would help the stopping, (coasting?), it doesn’t fix the sudden start. Could this overall issue be fixed with capacitors? ( the more electronic literate should correct me if I’m wrong). The momentum switch on some older HO transformers come to mind.
Steve
The jackrabbit start can be somewhat overcome by backing the transformer power down. It does not need 18V. Take a look.
Steve
What's the deal on the number boards? Is that a red LED?
@johnstrains looks orange close-up but yeah. definitely not white.
I played with the jackrabbit starts. Turning the transformer down to 13v (where some command equipment will not run), the jolt of starting/stopping becomes acceptable.
Also at 13v on the transformer, the engine will just make it up a 4% grade with cars in tow. Note the throttle level in the video of the train climbing a 4% grade; turning the throttle up any higher does not result in a faster up-hill ascent speed. Also note at the speed increase of the train at the end of the videos the weight of the train crests the rise (the front end of the train at the top is on flat track at this point). To be expected.
ps. not bashing Menards. My email to them began with "THANK YOU" and this is a really nice starter engine. The price is phenomenal. Would I buy another engine from them? DEFINITELY YES. I really don't care how they label the engine. The only 2 tweaks I'd suggest is the too-brief horn (only 1 sec long on mine and no way to lengthen the horn blow) and adjusting the start speed so it doesn't jump into motion at 18v. I did not have any issues with the remote control at all. I suggested they include a link to a web page for a brief "how to setup and operate your engine" for people who are brand new to the hobby.
Thanks for the follow up Scott V!
What is wrong with some of these people? Pick pick pick. It's a starter set engine, I give Menards an A+ for offering it.
Considering the simplicity of the electronics and the all or nothing speed control, could Menards possibly bought the controller from one of the inexpensive r/c car manufacturers like say New Bright? Those cars don't run with 18 volts, more in the line of 6-12 volts.
If that's the case, the addition of a battery pack and a DPDT switch and you have a dead rail locomotive. Track or battery power.
Scott V. That Consist is definitely "Santa Fe All The Way"
@Jim 1939 posted:What is wrong with some of these people? Pick pick pick. It's a starter set engine, I give Menards an A+ for offering it.
I'm with you, Jim! This is a first effort from Menards in terms of motive power, and they deserve a whole lot of credit for even dipping their toes into this pond. Folks need to chill a bit and let them work on things after this beta test. Lots of good/useful feedback provided by you forum members in this long thread, and I'm confident the Menard's product development people will welcome that input.
@Allan Miller posted:I'm with you, Jim! This is a first effort from Menards in terms of motive power, and they deserve a whole lot of credit for even dipping their toes into this pond. Folks need to chill a bit and let them work on things after this beta test. Lots of good/useful feedback provided by you forum members in this long thread, and I'm confident the Menard's product development people will welcome that input.
I'm still staggering under the load of absorbing the fact that Menard's actually did jump into motive power, I truthfully never thought it would happen.
The engine appears to have a pair of Mabuchi RS385s found in the majority of O scale engines from Railkings to Legacy. They should easily handle the loads so far pictured easily. Hopefully the next run uses flywheel equipped versions and the jump starts are addressed. Too bad there isn’t a Menards near me. I would have picked one up at the introductory price just to play with it but at close to an additional 50 bucks to get it me it was hard to justify, maybe if was a NYC lightning stripe.
Pete
I was fortunate enough to receive one of the engines, and was so disappointed last evening to get it home and the remote would not function. However, thanks so much for the tip on bending the positive connectors on the remote's battery compartment and it works! I actually have found that by placing the remote to full forward, I can hook this to two postwar Lionel Santa Fe engines with their e units locked in forward and they work together well conventionally! Another tip mentioned hitting the horn button several times fast produces a long horn sound. Its a winner!
@Ron_S I let it run for an hour on its own traveling up and down the 18ft of 4% grade... the shell was mildly warm to the touch near the motor.
some "night-time" run fun.
oh, and the HOA needs to issue letters to the community to remove those holiday lights .. (I forgot to turn those off and just leave the interior lights on).
@Norton posted:The engine appears to have a pair of Mabuchi RS385s found in the majority of O scale engines from Railkings to Legacy. They should easily handle the loads so far pictured easily. Hopefully the next run uses flywheel equipped versions and the jump starts are addressed. Too bad there isn’t a Menards near me. I would have picked one up at the introductory price just to play with it but at close to an additional 50 bucks to get it me it was hard to justify, maybe if was a NYC lightning stripe.
Pete
These were not on the shelf in stores, online only.
No doubt in my mind that Menards will be releasing more very affordable great operating engines in the future. The bugs will be corrected. It’s obvious the Ogauge market needs low costs products that one can purchase without damaging their household budget. I personally don’t own any Menards products but sure am happy to see them offer low cost terrific products that help everybody have fun with this great hobby.
I have been controlling my O gauge 2 rail and 3 rail with Variacs for years. These are the 0-120 volt Variacs connected to a transformer which is 0-24 volts with one set of leads to a rectifier for DC and the other leads to three rail track. I added a line fuse to both sets of leads and a to the DPDT DC leads. This may sound cumberson but due to the much higher wrapping of windings on the Variac Rheostat you can run your scale and 3-rail locomotives at much lower speeds. Even my post-war 2025 creeps along pull a long consist of Kusan cars!
@Tom Platten posted:I have been controlling my O gauge 2 rail and 3 rail with Variacs for years. These are the 0-120 volt Variacs connected to a transformer which is 0-24 volts with one set of leads to a rectifier for DC and the other leads to three rail track. I added a line fuse to both sets of leads and a to the DPDT DC leads. This may sound cumberson but due to the much higher wrapping of windings on the Variac Rheostat you can run your scale and 3-rail locomotives at much lower speeds. Even my post-war 2025 creeps along pull a long consist of Kusan cars!
This sounds very interesting Tom, I would like to see your setup running.
In the early days of model railroading many used variacs for train control, even some passenger car batteries were used.
In the old days some communities had DC, some had AC so a model rail had to use his ingenuity to get things running!
@wild mary posted:Could one of our BETA testers confirm whether or not the loco can be run conventional from the transformer by setting the remote yo MAX? Thanks guys.
As I mentioned earlier, that's how I run mine. It's the only way the loco will start and stop gracefully.
My TPC system goes down to zero, or almost.
A couple of points based on recent responses.
Yes, by turning the input voltage down, the locomotive runs much slower, which helps the abruptness somewhat what. Mine ran at less than 8 volts. But it still cuts out suddenly, unlike any other locomotive I have. That’s correctable, and I’m certain Menards will consider it.
Concerning conventional operations, when people ask if this runs conventionally, they mean can you operate it without a remote. Remotes can get lost, broken and burdensome. This current design makes the locomotive dependent on the remote. That’s not ideal. But I’m not sure how much a remote/conventional switch would add to the cost. Menards may address that issue, but if the goal is to keep this priced at less than $150, it might not be deemed doable.
Thanks Steve. That's exactly what I needed to know.
Well it arrived last night and this morning I put her thru the paces. I love this engine! Seeing it pull all my Menard's Santa Fe freight (with caboose) warmed my heart. I love that I don't need a wallwart.
I did have the remote battery chamber issue as others have mentioned. Also the horn is truly anemic. My son though the sound file sounded like it was recorded backwards. I also had a small scuff on the top of the cab. I feel I got more than my money's worth. Now just want to see a dummy unit, and some other roadnames.
I opted to mist the shiny trucks and pilot with Tamiya Silver Leaf. I like the difference.
Steve
@Jim 1939 posted:What is wrong with some of these people? Pick pick pick. It's a starter set engine, I give Menards an A+ for offering it.
Well, they are asking for comments. Some people bring their negativity to task, but most don’t.
So far, in my mind , reasonable comments include stop/start velocity, horn, and number board lighting.
Other comments tend to miss the point that this is a starter engine.
All around, a great step forward from Menards.
However, and without critical comment, I find the backup light through the back door funny.
Alan
@Steve "Papa" Eastman, Nice Job with that paint! It looks fantastic!
@ajzend, I don't believe Menards ever stated this was a "starter engine", but something inferred based on the apparent price point target. To shutdown feedback on features that are considered missing or desired is not necessary. Let Menards classify and sort through the all feedback and make of it what they will.
After a couple of hours of run time, mine just lost the prime mover sounds. The bell, horn, and talk all still work, just no engine sounds....
Found the problem, somewhere during going up/down the hills and testing going thru 042 and 031 switches the sounds switched moved from on to off. This happened while the train was running mind you. Since its not marked either way it took a while to realize that is what happened.
Apparently the switch only turns off the prime mover sounds, everything else still sounds off loud and clear!
Some of the posted internal pictures are very well done and quite useful. The controller appears to be crystal controlled which most likely puts the wireless control frequency in either the VHF or UHF band, but it could be higher. This is quite similar to many of the R/C toy cars. The antennas on both the controller transmitter board and the loco mounted receiver board are printed on the PCB's. Conversion to battery power would not be a major issue with this loco and would probably function well. Overall, an interesting product introduction.
@bmoran4 posted:@Steve "Papa" Eastman, Nice Job with that paint! It looks fantastic!
@ajzend, I don't believe Menards ever stated this was a "starter engine", but something inferred based on the apparent price point target. To shutdown feedback on features that are considered missing or desired is not necessary. Let Menards classify and sort through the all feedback and make of it what they will.
Maybe I’m being misunderstood, but I’m not calling for any shut down of comments.
Alan
I think Menards needs to ask for them back after about 4 weeks. They should provide a prepaid shipping label and a feedback form that will need to be completed. I feel it would be important for them to examine the used items to evaluate the actual products that have had components fail. Of course they would refund the price or provide a replacement when the bugs and kinks are worked out.
Were these really beta test engines? Two hundred units thru what they thought was going to be final production, did Menard's decide to label them "beta" in order to save face and stop production? The issues (especially a glaring lack of low speed control) people are bringing up on here seem pretty obvious and should've likely been resolved on a prototype or two before cranking out 200 of them. Just a thought.
@Former Member posted:Were these really beta test engines? Two hundred units thru what they thought was going to be final production, did Menard's decide to label them "beta" in order to save face and stop production? The issues (especially a glaring lack of low speed control) people are bringing up on here seem pretty obvious and should've likely been resolved on a prototype or two before cranking out 200 of them. Just a thought.
Did you read the original post by Mark? He didn’t throw this away as a beta test with no direction. But he did ask for blunt critical reviews of the product sent to the guest email box. Doesn’t sound like someone that’s trying to “save face.” It does sound like a company that’s planning on modifications based on feedback.
@Former Member posted:Were these really beta test engines? Two hundred units thru what they thought was going to be final production, did Menard's decide to label them "beta" in order to save face and stop production? The issues (especially a glaring lack of low speed control) people are bringing up on here seem pretty obvious and should've likely been resolved on a prototype or two before cranking out 200 of them. Just a thought.
My guess is that they thought were “finished” with them when they showed up from the factory. Then, some of the people tried running them and realized that there were issues that needed addressed. So they made a decision to circulate the product at low margin to cover their costs and solicit feedback from experienced users. Finished cost of goods is usually no more than 30% of retail. Using that math, these cost about $45-50 to produce in a full run of say 5,000 units. Fewer total units means a higher cost per unit so, these could have cost as much as $75 to produce in limited numbers.
A typical Lionel Lionel FT LionChief diesel has about a cost of goods around the same $45-60 range. Cost of goods is how much A manufacturer pays for the finished product complete with packaging and literature, and in some cases research & development costs for new items. The dealers pay more and the consumer pays the most. These are guesstimates based on my personal experience in the sector manufacturing.
@Steve "Papa" Eastman posted:I opted to mist the shiny trucks and pilot with Tamiya Silver Leaf. I like the difference.
Steve
Sometimes the simplest ideas are the best! Great idea.
I don't have one. I've read this topic all the way through. I have some opinions Menards may be interested in or not, since I don't have one, but would be interested.
1. Loose the crew talk.
2. Add flywheels.
3. Don't call it an F3.
4. Improve low speed operation.
5. Either shiny chrome it or don't. Don't do the trucks, but not the shell.
6. Light the number boards differently or don't light them at all. Skip the red light.
7. Improve the remote, or leave it conventional operation.
8. Do the above "fixes", and price at $200.00. It would be a bargain at that price and most of the "problems" would be corrected.
I would like the thank Menards for entering the O-gauge market. I was pretty unimpressed when the first buildings came out that were copies of a cottage industry manufacturer, but since then, Menards has really focused on the starter or affordable side of the hobby, which I do appreciate.
Hi Mark From Menards
Every one beat me to ordering this engine ! Great Looking Engine !
Please Set up the following paint Schemes: Milwaukee Road, Chicago & Northwestern, Rock island, NYC , PRR, Western Pacific, & many more !
I will be waiting !
Thanks
Bill in Wauwatosa
Ps Maybe do a CHRISTMAS paint scheme as well !
Also maybe a Halloween paint scheme for Jim R !
M:
How about getting, if you can, the Williams molds and jump start the line that way?
I picked up my engine from Menards this morning. Following are some of my observations:
1. To eliminate most of the stop/start jerk, I set the remote to the F in Forward. No need to turn it to full speed. I then turn the transformer on slowly for a fairly smooth start. I only give it 5 volts, all it needs. I can then rotate the remote or transformer handle up for enough speed to send it flying. Great motors inside!
2. My remote had no issues. I also had the scuff marks on top.
3. The orange marker board lights give a really neat glow from the headlight in the dark. In operation, the headlight is bright and really lights up the track.
4. The multiple push on the horn button works fine for me. I'm sere Menards will modify this function.
5. After running awhile, I realized that I didn't have the prime mover sounds. Volume control was full up. Got the first two screws out of the shell and noticed the sound On/off switch on the bottom. It should really be marked as to which is on. Sound works great now. Prime mover sounds ramp up nicely, but needs a little more base. If you take the shell off, watch the marker board bulbs. They can be easily bent out of position.
6. Crew/tower talk is loud and clear, more so than many high-end engines. Also quite a variety.
7. The couplers are of very good quality.
8. Pulled 25 cars with ease and could have handled more. A strong runner!
Bottom line, Menards has a great thing going that can only benefit the model train hobby. I'm sure they will get the bugs worked out before full production begins. I know that based on this trial run, I wouldn't hesitate to buy more of their future engines. Great job, Menards!
Ron
Outstanding offering from Menards. As one of the other members posted - I see this as a great engine to let the grandkids call their own and have fun pulling their own consist (mostly flat and crane cars with very creative loads). The ability to put together a set for around $325 (engine and five cars - no track/transformer) is a real winner.
Nicely done Menards.
Paul
@RixTrack posted:My guess is that they thought were “finished” with them when they showed up from the factory. Then, some of the people tried running them and realized that there were issues that needed addressed. So they made a decision to circulate the product at low margin to cover their costs and solicit feedback from experienced users.
I was thinking this exact thing.
A company I worked for years ago had an annual employee picnic and each year they would get everyone a nice gift. They had about 1400 employees. Well one year they decided to get everyone one of those nice folding camping chairs that fold up into a bag, in the company colors with their logo on it. While the company was involved in manufacturing, it was more on a military scale with big metal things - things like armor and ships etc. Well for these chairs, they decided to order them from China because they found a place that would let you customize them and they were cheap. This was around 2003 or so. So, while China was full steam into the manufactured goods segment - not everyone was wise to their tricks.
The chairs showed up in a 40 ft intermodal container stacked to the ceiling. No boxes. No bags. No pallets. Nothing but chairs. It took the loading dock guys quite a while to unload those things and I have no idea how they got them to the picnic.
Weeks later after the event, I was at a campfire with some friends and I leaned to the side to grab my beer and down I went. I'm not a "skinny" guy but I don't go around breaking chairs that often. I copped it up to a defect and moved on. Well one by one, everyone's chairs started to break. The company was lucky they didn't end up with a lawsuit had someone fell and hit their head or something.
There are some wonderful products that are made in China - but man you have to watch the manufacturing process like a hawk. You also need to specify EVERYTHING. You want it in boxes - specify exactly what you want. You want it palletized, better be on the requirements document. The manufacturing is sometimes like this giant powerful saw that will cut down any tree and make amazing things with the wood. But if you are doing the ordering, YOU are the saw's operator and you need to really know your stuff so you don't get ripped off when "renting" the saw.
OMG!!!!!
What is it with all you people who like to bring up conspiracies? Can't take Mark at his word? And we can stop with the lessons on doing business with China. It gets posted in almost every thread that deals with products coming from there....and usually by the same few people.
I'd say, "get a hobby," apparently some of you already have one: "Dissect and negatively commentate on every business decision by train companies, without any solid backup information.
I can’t wait for Menards to apply some of the requested fixes. So looking forward to a plethora of road names. You’ve created a lot of excitement Menards. Thank you, Thank you!
@EscapeRocks posted:OMG!!!!!
What is it with all you people who like to bring up conspiracies? Can't take Mark at his word? And we can stop with the lessons on doing business with China. It gets posted in almost every thread that deals with products coming from there....and usually by the same few people.
I'd say, "get a hobby," apparently some of you already have one: "Dissect and negatively commentate on every business decision by train companies, without any solid backup information.
What conspiracies are you talking about? I think Menards is making some great business decisions. Nothing negative about it. I’m just happy to have another F-unit variant that might become widely available. Lionel and MTH never did an FP7!
Nice engine so far. Ran it for a while with a legacy engine on the same track with a 180 powerhouse . Starts and stops were kind of rough. Found it ran a little smother through a ZWC just setting the Menards remote up a little ways and controlling the voltage through the Legacy Cab 2. Using that setup put it on a track with a steep grade like 7" in about 12' of track uphill. Engine was hooked to 12 cars which have weights in them to bring up to standards. Having those cars behind took care of the fast starts and stops. Engine ran smooth up and down the grade no problem pulling the cars. Ran on that track for a half hour or so and engine showed no sign of getting over heated. The engine ran smother and better than the Lionel GP9 which has 2 can motors in the trucks that normally pulls that train.
Bottom Line...... IT'S A TOY!!!!!! Who cares about colors, what type it is, as long as it runs, pulls a decent consist and reliable. Maybe just maybe it will bring newcomers into this great hobby which seems to be pricing themselves out of business. For around $150 what a bargain. And also who cares who made it.
KUDOS to the Menards people!!!
@Elevatorman posted:Bottom Line...... IT'S A TOY!!!!!! Who cares about colors, what type it is, as long as it runs, pulls a decent consist and reliable.
Most of the comments have been generally favorable about this locomotive AND Mark from Menards DID solicit input about any frailties.
Maybe just maybe it will bring newcomers into this great hobby which seems to be pricing themselves out of business. For around $150 what a bargain. And also who cares who made it.
I would assume Menards would like to know where the product could be improved. If things like the weak battery clip in the remotes aren't addressed and result in excessive returns by John Q. Public they will be of no value to newcomers.
Rusty
KUDOS to the Menards people!!!
I think it's a great looking locomotive and hope to see other fallen flags since I already have several Santa Fe F units. Like someone mentioned earlier a dummy unit and B unit would be a nice addition. Hopefully Mark will post a thread asking members what road names they prefer.
@Elevatorman posted:Bottom Line...... IT'S A TOY!!!!!! Who cares about colors, what type it is, as long as it runs, pulls a decent consist and reliable. Maybe just maybe it will bring newcomers into this great hobby which seems to be pricing themselves out of business. For around $150 what a bargain. And also who cares who made it.
KUDOS to the Menards people!!!
Just think of the potential new market Menards could be serving here. How many folks are in a train store looking for paint, flooring, lumber etc???? With the addition of motive power, and I'm sure RTR sets to come as well, impulse buys should cover the R&D cost by themselves. Have you seen the price of the Straburg # 90?
I have many of their cars and they are well made and are a fraction of the cost of the regular mfrs. I would buy the buildings too but my layout is too small.
The feedback Mark and the team are getting just on this thread are worth more than any fancy marketing consultant could provide. So let's leave the conspiracy theories on the shelf and enjoy the moment and what's to come.
I'm still in awe that Menard's jumped into the pond with a powered unit. It adds a whole new dimension to their existing train line, and I surely hope they expand that part of the lineup.
John,
I am hoping the lineup is varied, robust and long lived!
@RSJB18 posted:The feedback Mark and the team are getting just on this thread are worth more than any fancy marketing consultant could provide. So let's leave the conspiracy theories on the shelf and enjoy the moment and what's to come.
With 14 thread pages, and who knows how many more may follow, if Menards doesn't see what worked and what didn't for this loco, then I guess not more can be said here by us OGRers.
@Steve "Papa" Eastman posted:I opted to mist the shiny trucks and pilot with Tamiya Silver Leaf. I like the difference.
Steve
Wow Steve! Now that made a HUGE difference.
And in case you thought Menards was just lumber, paint and hardware and now trains, here comes Menards coffee!!
https://www.menards.com/main/l...m_campaign=30D2-2021(1)&utm_content=Great-Value-Marcella&spMailingID=33520239&spUserID=NDE5NzIxMDI2NDI0S0&spJobID=1984375981&spReportId=MTk4NDM3NTk4MQS2
But we can drink the their coffee while admiring the Menards loco pulling Menards cars past Menards buildings. There, kept the thread focus on trains!
I didn’t get one but have been following this thread very closely. It seems that the glaring issues that I would be concerned about for my purchase are remote contacts, packaging for cosmetics and the quick start. I am not concerned about the number boards and for night running they look kind of cool. The packaging could be corrected with a simple foam sheet across the top of the engine and will still display nicely on retail shelving. There might need to be a slight redesign for the copper contacts in the remote, still a simple fix. The jackrabbit starts might be correctable with something as simple as wiring motors in a series. None of my MPC engines have flywheels and it has never been an issue, however they are nice.
Now down to the real reason for my post this morning. I believe you have a chance to reach out to beginners, budget minded operators and collectors.
Yes I said collectors ! Find unique road names, prototypical or not and produce a limited number of each. I am not in for a Santa Fe or New York Central, I can get those anywhere but come up with some railroads that have flashy paint schemes and that haven’t been done to death and I will be in for one of each. Then all of a sudden, instant collectible, I will have to have one of everyone produced. You might even snag a high end collector/operator because of that road name they can’t get anywhere else ( think upgradable).
I think this could get real interesting real fast !
@Steve "Papa" Eastman posted:I opted to mist the shiny trucks and pilot with Tamiya Silver Leaf. I like the difference.
Steve
Much improved. The shiny trucks are a swing and a miss for me.
@CAPPilot posted:An F3 is not on my wish list, but if this is successful it will be interesting to see what future engines they do. At 13", their F3 is scale length so I assume the other dimensions are good too. If future engines are also scale sized that would be great (for me).
As a command control engine, does it matter to any of you that it does not have electrocouplers?
Yes, since I have a switching layout and enjoy switching, electrocouplers operated by pressing a button on a handheld is important to me.
This morning I found a use for a Santa Fe B unit from MTH that I wasn't currently using. It works quite well with Menards FP7. I had to rubber band the teather to the couplers, but I may be able to retract it into the B unit.
Ron
@rrman posted:And in case you thought Menards was just lumber, paint and hardware and now trains, here comes Menards coffee!!
https://www.menards.com/main/l...m_campaign=30D2-2021(1)&utm_content=Great-Value-Marcella&spMailingID=33520239&spUserID=NDE5NzIxMDI2NDI0S0&spJobID=1984375981&spReportId=MTk4NDM3NTk4MQS2
But we can drink the their coffee while admiring the Menards loco pulling Menards cars past Menards buildings. There, kept the thread focus on trains!
Tastes like a robust Columbian Dark Roast with a hint of fresh cut 2x4???
Rusty
@RSJB18 posted:Much improved. The shiny trucks are a swing and a miss for me.
I would think that the shiny trucks would be great if the body had a chromed look to it. As it is it’s a little incongruous, however, it could have an appeal to the perhaps targeted user- kids?
By the way, do you have to strip it or prime the trucks first?
Alan
@Rusty Traque posted:Tastes like a robust Columbian Dark Roast with a hint of fresh cut 2x4???
Rusty
😜🤪😂
@ajzend posted:I would think that the shiny trucks would be great if the body had a chromed look to it. As it is it’s a little incongruous, however, it could have an appeal to the perhaps targeted user- kids?
By the way, do you have to strip it or prime the trucks first?
Alan
The shiny parts appear to be raw metal, so I just sprayed them directly.
Steve
Who is the targeted end user?
Is this being put out for us; the mature user? Or is this intended as the motive power for a starter set. In other words, kids.
What we see will go right over the head of a new young engineer. They might like the jack rabbit starts. (My nephew used to wonder why the train accessories were so slow).
A reddish glow to the number boards might be a novel attraction.
They could be happy with any push button horn.
The broken red paint pattern over the grills would not even be noticed.
So, are we reviewing a kids toy, or an adult toy? Where’s the money at, and for what targeted user?
I’m not saying that it wouldn’t be nice if Menards corrected our adult concerns, and they probably will.
But, is this targeted as an inexpensive engine around which to build bigger Menards sets from?
Of course, one might say why not target both markets? I enjoy my high end engines, but I also enjoy running Williams engines too Let’s see what the final price point is , and how it’s packaged That will give us the answer (unless Mark tips his hand first)
Alan
I tested the Menards remote for the Santa Fe engine for distance. Works great at 35 feet. I couldn't get farther away, so it will work fine for me.
Ron
@ajzend posted:Who is the targeted end user?
Is this being put out for us; the mature user? Or is this intended as the motive power for a starter set. In other words, kids.
What we see will go right over the head of a new young engineer. They might like the jack rabbit starts. (My nephew used to wonder why the train accessories were so slow).
A reddish glow to the number boards might be a novel attraction.
They could be happy with any push button horn.The broken red paint pattern over the grills would not even be noticed.
So, are we reviewing a kids toy, or an adult toy? Where’s the money at, and for what targeted user?I’m not saying that it wouldn’t be nice if Menards corrected our adult concerns, and they probably will.
But, is this targeted as an inexpensive engine around which to build bigger Menards sets from?Of course, one might say why not target both markets? I enjoy my high end engines, but I also enjoy running Williams engines too Let’s see what the final price point is , and how it’s packaged That will give us the answer (unless Mark tips his hand first)
Alan
Hey, watch who you are calling mature!
Love the engine @Menards. Really good job. Just some feedback for you in this thread I made.
@RON ARNDT 091718 posted:I tested the Menards remote for the Santa Fe engine for distance. Works great at 35 feet. I couldn't get farther away, so it will work fine for me.
Ron
Does engine stay running or does it stop if no transmitter sending? Answering my own question, I would think it stays running until a new command sent.
@RON ARNDT 091718 posted:This morning I found a use for a Santa Fe B unit from MTH that I wasn't currently using. It works quite well with Menards FP7. I had to rubber band the teather to the couplers, but I may be able to retract it into the B unit.
Ron
What is the teather for. Does it have sound?
John
My RK MTH Santa Fe set has the sound in the A unit, and pass through tether for lights for B unit and on to the trailing dummy A unit for lights and rear coupler.
rrman - good question. I went down to my layout to give it a try. The engine will stay running with no commands given to it as long as the remote is turned on. I set my transformer to only a couple of volts and turned the remote off. The engine went about a quarter of the way around my layout and stopped dead. With the couple of volts on the track, the engine remained in neutral with lights and idle sounds. Tried this a few times with the same results. The engine has two large capacitors and I think that one of them retains the remote commands until it is depleted and shuts the engine down. Just a guess on my part.
Ron
@Ron_S posted:My RK MTH Santa Fe set has the sound in the A unit, and pass through tether for lights for B unit and on to the trailing dummy A unit for lights and rear coupler.
OK. Thanks Ron. I take it the MTH B unit matches pretty well?
JOhn
Another comment on the wiring in the engine. I’m impressed with the heavy gauge wire used in it compared to the competition. I didn’t check the gauge when I had the shell off, but it looked to be at least 18 gauge.
A shout out to Elizabeth W.at Menards in customer service. I deleted the receipt for the F3 and she emailed another one so I could get the rebate.
This is exciting news for sure and can’t wait to see what’s in store next !
There are a few Menards Facebook pages out there with posts already .
Great time for model railroading folks 😎
Ron S is right on as to the purpose of the teather. The B unit has almost identical dimensions as the Menards Santa Fe. The MTH B unit has more glossy paint and the trucks match the body color. Other than that, it looks quite at home behind the A unit. The extra weight also helps cushion the start-up jerk.
Ron A
I’m not a fan of the shiny trucks and couplers, but Steve posted a solution. It is definitely a better running loco than my first starter set loco, a Lionel single motor RS-3
Alright....who's gonna open up one of the trucks and see what the gears are made of???
Where's Alex M when we need him? lol!
@ajzend posted:Who is the targeted end user?
The broken red paint pattern over the grills would not even be noticed.
So, are we reviewing a kids toy, or an adult toy? Where’s the money at, and for what targeted user?Alan
If only the adults knew what they are talking about. The paint scheme is accurate as is, as Rusty Traque showed in a link earlier in this thread and as hobbyists such as myself have seen in many photos and models for years. (Which I think you already know, Alan, but many here apparently don’t).
The external gears are plastic, which are easy to see. My question is how do you remove the motor to see what the worm and internal gear look like? There is no screw under the truck to take out to remove the motor like we’re used to with Lionel and MTH.
Ron
There is a screw, it is a allen head. The motor worm gear is brass, the truck gear is plastic just like the external ones.
Kind of surprised M went with an F unit. I thought they would go with something like a NW2 dwitchet as a start.
Thanks Darrell for clearing that up. I looked at that "screw" and couldn't see the allen head clearly enough. Must be a combination of my not-the-best glasses and the glare from the shiny truck, although I thought that it did resemble an allen head. How well was the worm and internal gear lubricated?
Ron
@rrman posted:Does engine stay running or does it stop if no transmitter sending? Answering my own question, I would think it stays running until a new command sent.
If you run it and then turn off the remote, the loco stays running for about 1-2 seconds, then stops with a vengeance.
@Dominic Mazoch posted:Kind of surprised M went with an F unit. I thought they would go with something like a NW2 dwitchet as a start.
An F-unit gives more room inside to work with and you don't have to deal with platform railings.
Rusty
A couple more videos of mine. Pulling 6 medium weight passenger cars in 95 degree heat. The patio has a slope to it, but there was no speed changes as it encountered the minor elevation differences. Ran it for about 6 hours total. Also a short night video to show the headlight.
Steve
@Darrell posted:There is a screw, it is a allen head. The motor worm gear is brass, the truck gear is plastic just like the external ones.
Was there adequate grease?
@RickO posted:Alright....who's gonna open up one of the trucks and see what the gears are made of???
Where's Alex M when we need him? lol!
Hi Rick,
I was going to purchase one , take it apart to see what’s inside. It sold out before I could do so lol.
Thanks, Alex
@RickO posted:Was there adequate grease?
Actually if the gear is delrin, no grease is required. If its nylon then grease won’t help. I am guessing the former.
Pete
@Steve "Papa" Eastman posted:A couple more videos of mine. Pulling 6 medium weight passenger cars in 95 degree heat. The patio has a slope to it, but there was no speed changes as it encountered the minor elevation differences. Ran it for about 6 hours total. Also a short night video to show the headlight.
Steve
Looks like the number board LED on the left side isn't aligned properly and it's creating a light spot on the shell. I'm not keen on how they lit the number boards on these with one LED behind. Makes for a very narrow beam.
Thanks for the video and report. Looks like Menard's, with a few adjustments, has a nice low end model.
Finally got around to unpacking mine last night. Very nice looking model. As previously mentioned the shiny trucks are not my favorite but they will grow on me eventually. The plastic clam shell packaging is solid but I would add a thin foam padding around the shell. Mine also has a few marks along the roof from the package.
I also had problems with the battery terminals in the remote. I use Duracell AAA's and the positive tip doesn't make contact with the terminal. I had to bend the terminals a bit to get good contact. It would also be good if the speed control had a center off stop on the pot. As I was testing the loco I rammed it into reverse several times.
I use a KW for power and at about 12-13v the loco was manageable on starts/stops. Better low speed at this voltage too. If sets are produced with a 16v wallwart there may be issues.
The headlight is nice and bright, I'm also not a fan of the number board lights but it's not a deal breaker for me either. I find the crew talk to be cringe inducing (same for the big mfrs), just my personal opinion. The prime mover sound is good, horn and bell could use some modification.
For the record, it will navigate 027 curves too!
Overall I give it a B+/A-. Certainly a solid debut for Menards. I'm sure they have other models in the works. I'd like to see more of the early diesel era, NW-2, RS-3, Geep's, along with some modern stuff. If they do a steamer then all the better.
Here’s another short video clip, this time of the Menards locomotive pulling a consist of postwar Lionel aluminum passenger cars on the Milwaukee Lionel Railroad Club layout yesterday.
Some tech info: The MTH Z-4000 transformer was set at 10 volts and the remote throttle was aligned with the letter “F” (from the word “Forward”), giving it a nice slow speed setting around the curve.
I didn't receive one of the 200 test samples, but in looking over the notes and watching the videos I'll suggest that getting flywheels in place so that the engine is able to coast would be a critical upgrade. If the intention is to get folks to pick up a locomotive at a very reasonable price for their kids to run, that screeching halt with younger children will lead to unhappiness (read derailments). As anecdotal evidence, I collect AMT/KMT F units from the 50s that stop dead in their tracks when power is cut - they can pull stumps due to their weight/traction tires, but there's zero coasting ability which frustrated my young son when he tried running them. We had a number of modern diesels with flywheels which enabled coasts to the stopping point when power was cut which he'd run successfully (and greatly reduced the number of derailed cars that inevitably piled up when running the non-coasting power). I'd also add that being able to run the engines conventionally would be a worthwhile addition - as it stands, it appears the engine won't move if the remote isn't used - broken remotes will lead to unhappy engineers if they can't run their engines at all.
Nice track. I always loved Lionel's or Menard's good old fashion tubular track. I found it to be very dependable. It worked for me for years.
@MTN posted:I'd also add that being able to run the engines conventionally would be a worthwhile addition - as it stands, it appears the engine won't move if the remote isn't used - broken remotes will lead to unhappy engineers if they can't run their engines at all.
True, adding a simple switch could bypass the electronics. However it would lock the engine in forward mode (or with more switch complexity, forward/reverse). If you want the "automatic" F,N,R,N then $$$ come in and we are moving into the low end Lionel et-al RTR sets, so that low price point begins to go away.
Nearly all who have expressed the desire for it to run conventional have the ability to modify this once purchased. Keeping the price low and the livery varied is definitely a win/win.
I am hoping that several run their locomotive hard and find out if the gears and motors hold up to prolonged and steady use. Whether a 7 year old or a 70 year old kid wants it to run, and run and run..........
@RON ARNDT 091718 posted:rrman - good question. I went down to my layout to give it a try. The engine will stay running with no commands given to it as long as the remote is turned on. I set my transformer to only a couple of volts and turned the remote off. The engine went about a quarter of the way around my layout and stopped dead. With the couple of volts on the track, the engine remained in neutral with lights and idle sounds. Tried this a few times with the same results. The engine has two large capacitors and I think that one of them retains the remote commands until it is depleted and shuts the engine down. Just a guess on my part.
Ron
Thanks Ron for the answer (now I can sleep tonight with this burning question answered! 
) So speculating the remote periodically pings the loco with the speed command. If no ping after X seconds then loco stops.
The brass worm gear has a coat of grease, the plastic gears do not. The gears appear to me to be made of delrin.
I picked up my copy of the Menards Engine yesterday and was NOT disappointed.
The trucks are just fine the way they are as it adds a bit of class to a stagnate old model everyone is accustomed to. Keep in mind this a toy and not a precision model. It is also geared to the general public. Also the level of detail in the trucks is very well done from my perspective.
The horn could be better and a slight packaging adjustment of the plastic form in which the model rests would eliminate the rub mark on top of the engine.
Personally I'm not a fan of any crew talk no matter who the manufacturer is. I find it annoying actually. It would be different if the operator of the engine had to communicate with the dispatcher directly. Then there would be some actual interaction in running the model.
Running the model is similar to what others have noted, but using the trick of moving the command dial to forward and then throttling up allowed for a much smoother start.
Pulling power excellent.
Paint application and color is excellent as it is typically with all of Menards models nice and crisp.
I give them an A++ for effort and an A for the model - keeping in mind this is their first powered model ever and that it was a beta version.
Not even your big manufactures who have been solely in the model train business for decades can consistently deliver models that meet or exceed expectations be it graphics, scale, power, pricing, features, etc.
Menards is essentially a lumber / hardware company that is only dabbling in the model train market. My hat goes off to them for a job well done given they do not have a model Train R&D department working full time to deliver model train related products that they do.
Bravo, Menards! You can make these upgrades, add to the retail cost and this would still be a bargain.
After some experience with running this engine, I am curious as to why some are putting 16+ volts to the track. This engine is not TMCC or DCS, but more like conventional Williams, Weaver, Custom Trains, and many Lionel engines. These conventional engines begin operation at about 3 volts. For the Menatds engine, I turn on the remote in neutral and turn the transformer on that the lights on my switch controls just light up. This gives the engine its lights and start up sounds and any preliminary crew talk that you may desire. Put the remote at the F in Forward for a relatively smooth start. I then move the transformer up to 5 volts to increase speed and leave it there. Then turning the remote about half way gives you about 30 scale miles per hour. Turning the remote all the way up gives you about 90 scale miles per hour, much more than one needs. Plus you can still go up to 18 volts on the transformer. I can only imagine what would happen then! The motors in this engine are truly very responsive. To stop the engine, I simply make sure the remote is at the F position and turn down the transformer until the engine stops, again relatively smoothly. Lots of extra motions, which I'm sure Menards will correct with our input, but that's half the fun in running this engine knowing it will mean more good things to come as Menards moves into engine production.
Ron
@RON ARNDT 091718 posted:After some experience with running this engine, I am curious as to why some are putting 16+ volts to the track. This engine is not TMCC or DCS, but more like conventional Williams, Weaver, Custom Trains, and many Lionel engines. These conventional engines begin operation at about 3 volts. For the Menatds engine, I turn on the remote in neutral and turn the transformer on that the lights on my switch controls just light up. This gives the engine its lights and start up sounds and any preliminary crew talk that you may desire. Put the remote at the F in Forward for a relatively smooth start. I then move the transformer up to 5 volts to increase speed and leave it there. Then turning the remote about half way gives you about 30 scale miles per hour. Turning the remote all the way up gives you about 90 scale miles per hour, much more than one needs. Plus you can still go up to 18 volts on the transformer. I can only imagine what would happen then! The motors in this engine are truly very responsive. To stop the engine, I simply make sure the remote is at the F position and turn down the transformer until the engine stops, again relatively smoothly. Lots of extra motions, which I'm sure Menards will correct with our input, but that's half the fun in running this engine knowing it will mean more good things to come as Menards moves into engine production.
Ron
Good point Ron. I was wondering why 18V. Lucky the designers took the 18+V into account, otherwise there would/could have been a fire in the loco engine room!. Obviously, Menards could have included a paper saying for best performance set transformer to X volts. I am sure Menards Mark has read this forum threads to realize most of us operate TMCC and/or DCS with 18V tracks. But I presume much.
Why a nominal 18 VAC? Because that is the de facto standard we expect from all non-conventional three rail O gauge items. Why would it be anything else but that, especially since there's no manual or documentation that states otherwise?
I firmly believe Menards should follow the conventions that are pre-existing wherever possible and where there is no substantial benefit to deviate.
@rrman posted:Obviously, Menards could have included a paper saying for best performance set transformer to X volts. I am sure Menards Mark has read this forum threads to realize most of us operate TMCC and/or DCS with 18V tracks. But I presume much.
That was one of my suggestions to Menards, as well. I think we all defaulted to 18 volts based on our experiences with TMCC, LionChief and DCS.
By trial and error, some forum members figured out that you could turn the transformer throttle down to as little as 3 volts. A recommended voltage setting would be welcomed, as well any cautions about what the maximums and minimums should be.
@RON ARNDT 091718 posted:After some experience with running this engine, I am curious as to why some are putting 16+ volts to the track. This engine is not TMCC or DCS, but more like conventional Williams, Weaver, Custom Trains, and many Lionel engines. These conventional engines begin operation at about 3 volts. For the Menatds engine, I turn on the remote in neutral and turn the transformer on that the lights on my switch controls just light up. This gives the engine its lights and start up sounds and any preliminary crew talk that you may desire. Put the remote at the F in Forward for a relatively smooth start. I then move the transformer up to 5 volts to increase speed and leave it there. Then turning the remote about half way gives you about 30 scale miles per hour. Turning the remote all the way up gives you about 90 scale miles per hour, much more than one needs. Plus you can still go up to 18 volts on the transformer. I can only imagine what would happen then! The motors in this engine are truly very responsive. To stop the engine, I simply make sure the remote is at the F position and turn down the transformer until the engine stops, again relatively smoothly. Lots of extra motions, which I'm sure Menards will correct with our input, but that's half the fun in running this engine knowing it will mean more good things to come as Menards moves into engine production.
Ron
And how about those command layouts that operate solely through a brick that can only output 18v. There are quite a number of us who don't use traditional transformers that allow you to vary the voltage.
I guess 18 volt would be needed if you run the engine on the same track with legacy or DCS engines. If on a separate loop then by all means do as you’ve stated. Good info.
Good point for those not using variable output transformers. I use two GW-180's, and a Z-1000 to run my trains, plus other transformers for accessories. The best of both worlds under the circumstances. Boy, that must really be an abrupt start and stop when only using bricks. I still occasionally have derailments when I goof up using my conservative procedures.
Ron
@Craftech posted:1. Turned up the track voltage on my tubular track layout (measured with an AC voltmeter) with KW throttle till it read 18v center to outside rail.
2. Placed engine on track and plugged in KW. Engine started.
3. Turned on remote. Light came on, sound level adjusted with remote volume control.
4. Moved forward no problem, ran a few feet, and then it tripped the circuit breaker I have in line with rails. The breaker is rated at 7.5A (Sensata breaker).
5. Disconnected everything except power to a single lockon. Same thing after a few feet.
6. Turned voltage down to around 16v. Tripped the breaker after short run again.
7. Connected different accessory terminals to track, but I could not get a reading on my voltmeter at the track so I was afraid to try the engine that way. I have never connected the accessory terminals to the track before anyway.
8. Next step is to make a circle with some Menards tubular track, connect power to it, and try it again. If that doesn't work I will get an 18v DC power supply and try that on my tubular track. Positive to center rail, negative to one of the outside rails.\
John
@rrman replied:
"I suspect a momentary short that happens when engine moves. Check wires to the trucks for abrasions or missing heat shrink tubing. Or a pickup rollers are unevenly round or holder warpped and touching the truck frame."
I didn't listen to him so I set up a Menards circle with O Gauge track instead of using my 027 layout and it ran flawlessly. Thinking there must be a short in my 027 layout I tore the entire thing apart and tested each section of tubular track and the Marx switches. Couldn't find the short.
So I set up lengths of 027 track and tested it a little at a time as I added track and it shorted after I set up around 3 feet of track.
So I put a 30" section of 027 against the bottom of the Menards engine and flipped the sandwich upside down and lo and behold one of the spring loaded coupler screws (phillips) was touching the center rail. It came from the factory not screwed in all the way. Screwed it in and it ran flawlessly. Apparently regular O Gauge track elevated the truck enough that the screw didn't touch the center rail. Dropped down on 027 it touched.
Oh well, I wanted to tear my layout apart anyway so this was a good excuse.
Sorry @rrman - you were right.
John
EDIT: I have been following the other posts and am not using 18v. Much lower.
@Craftech posted:@rrman replied:
"I suspect a momentary short that happens when engine moves. Check wires to the trucks for abrasions or missing heat shrink tubing. Or a pickup rollers are unevenly round or holder warpped and touching the truck frame."
I didn't listen to him so I set up a Menards circle with O Gauge track instead of using my 027 layout and it ran flawlessly. Thinking there must be a short in my 027 layout I tore the entire thing apart and tested each section of tubular track and the Marx switches. Couldn't find the short.
So I set up lengths of 027 track and tested it a little at a time as I added track and it shorted after I set up around 3 feet of track.
So I put a 30" section of 027 against the bottom of the Menards engine and flipped the sandwich upside down and lo and behold one of the spring loaded coupler screws (phillips) was touching the center rail. It came from the factory not screwed in all the way. Screwed it in and it ran flawlessly. Apparently regular O Gauge track elevated the truck enough that the screw didn't touch the center rail. Dropped down on 027 it touched.
Oh well, I wanted to tear my layout apart anyway so this was a good excuse.
Sorry @rrman - you were right.
John
Thanks John. Nice to know my brain's candle flame still flickers once in awhile!!
@Trinity River Bottoms Boomer posted:Steve "Papa" Eastman: I've been reluctant to post anything here since this thread was set up for the lucky model railroaders who obtained one of the 200 initial Menards Santa Fe "FP7" Diesel locomotives so the model can be fully tested and send Menards the feedback they want in order to work out any issues and move forward with this new Nice Price product before beginning mass production.
I am impressed with your video presentation and the running quality of your F unit with the set of passenger cars. I'm not into keeping track of the manufacturers passenger cars that are being made but the Menards F unit in Santa Fe classic Warbonnet and the passenger car consist sure reminds me of Athearn HO ca. 1959. Old heads will remember Athearn and their affordable line of nicely detailed generic products in the Yellow Box which included a Santa Fe Warbonnet F7 (albeit powered by their Hi-F (rubber band) drive and streamlined passenger cars that look a lot like the ones you are running with your Menards F unit. For me, a blast from the past, even though the train is O gauge instead of HO.
Regardless, your video took me on a trip back down my right-of-way of memories as a teenage train nut who passed milepost thirteen on July 4, 1959. No birthday cake, candles, not even a el cheapo Athearn box car kit b-day gift. My step-dad had just relocated the family from Texas to Florida and he was unemployed at the time. Frank Sanatra sang it best: "That's Life!"
That said, thank you for sharing your video with all members who are lucky to be part of the O Gauge Railroading gang!
Joe
Thanks Joe. This has been a fun project.
Steve
Just a quick note on my experience so far. I got my loco delivered to my home this past Thursday. I opened it up immediately. Putting it on the powered track and lights and sound work. So I opened up the remote to put the 3 AAA batteries in and found no evidence of the negative battery clips ever being installed. Remote is useless without negative battery terminals. So I sent an e-mail to the e-mail address in the original post in this topic that we were asked to send feedback to. I also sent a similar private forum message to Mark. I included my personal e-mail address and phone number. No response so I followed the returns link in the e-mail receipt from Menard’s. It took me to a web page where I had to fill out a contact form. I filled out the form and got a confirmation from the web site that my request was received. No response from that either. Can you only do a return to Menard’s at a store? Not going to drive 1000 miles to return this. It would be nice if I could get a replacement remote but if not possible at least a return RMA.No such luck. I’ll give it a week and if nothing I’ll call my credit card company. So unfortunately my experience so far hasn’t been as positive as others.
@ChooChoo1972 posted:Just a quick note on my experience so far. I got my loco delivered to my home this past Thursday. I opened it up immediately. Putting it on the powered track and lights and sound work. So I opened up the remote to put the 3 AAA batteries in and found no evidence of the negative battery clips ever being installed. Remote is useless without negative battery terminals. So I sent an e-mail to the e-mail address in the original post in this topic that we were asked to send feedback to. I also sent a similar private forum message to Mark. I included my personal e-mail address and phone number. No response so I followed the returns link in the e-mail receipt from Menard’s. It took me to a web page where I had to fill out a contact form. I filled out the form and got a confirmation from the web site that my request was received. No response from that either. Can you only do a return to Menard’s at a store? Not going to drive 1000 miles to return this. It would be nice if I could get a replacement remote but if not possible at least a return RMA.No such luck. I’ll give it a week and if nothing I’ll call my credit card company. So unfortunately my experience so far hasn’t been as positive as others.
If they can't replace the remote and you still want to keep it here is another alternative:
https://www.amazon.com/Youlian...626784844&sr=8-6
John
That's at least two remotes without terminals. No quick fix for this. Imagine the reaction of child opening a Christmas present to find this beautiful engine only to find it non operational due to a faulty controller. That's the best reason for a conventional-remote switch.
Also I find the scuff marks on the roof odd. Could they be the result off a chemical reaction between the paint and the Styrofoam packaging, or could the paint not be fully cured when packaged?
@coach joe posted:That's at least two remotes without terminals. No quick fix for this. Imagine the reaction of child opening a Christmas present to find this beautiful engine only to find it non operational due to a faulty controller. That's the best reason for a conventional-remote switch.
Also I find the scuff marks on the roof odd. Could they be the result off a chemical reaction between the paint and the Styrofoam packaging, or could the paint not be fully cured when packaged?
Assuming they already have something in conventional.
The scuffing is from friction. Even in the molded blister packaging, the model can shift a bit in transit. Plus the layer of paint isn't all that thick.
That's why some companies wrap the model in a thin barrier material to mitigate the issue and make it easier to remove from the packaging.
Rusty
@coach joe posted:Also I find the scuff marks on the roof odd. Could they be the result off a chemical reaction between the paint and the Styrofoam packaging, or could the paint not be fully cured when packaged?
That's what I think since everyone has the scuff marks. I put it in and out of the packaging every day and it doesn't scuff. Probably a production deadline they had to meet at the plant.
John
@coach joe posted:That's at least two remotes without terminals. No quick fix for this. Imagine the reaction of child opening a Christmas present to find this beautiful engine only to find it non operational due to a faulty controller. That's the best reason for a conventional-remote switch.
Also I find the scuff marks on the roof odd. Could they be the result off a chemical reaction between the paint and the Styrofoam packaging, or could the paint not be fully cured when packaged?
Joe, I was thinking the same thing about the kid on Christmas morning. In the other case of the person who didn't have the negative terminals installed do you know if Menards ever got back to them? So far I have received nothing but radio silence.
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