10x12 - Two Level Fastrack Layout

Very nice presentation - Cheers!   Good design - around the room route over the lift-out bridge, and the loop to loop at the lower level.   Plus the elevated level.   Smart features overall.

One issue:  the aisleways look too tight.   One person rubbing against the edges of the layout - no visitors or a second operator inside.   But is appears there is plenty of space at the front of the layout - correct?

I can't tell what the sections are, what the curves are, etc.   So I can't inspect and perhaps make suggestions on the configuration in order to expand the aisle.   Perhaps move that spur on the lower level closer to the right side to expand the aisle.   If you have a more detailed or labeled diagram that would be helpful in evaluating your design.

It looks like the reverse curve into the turntable (Atlas?) looks like a problem.   Try a left-hand turnout a section back for your lead to the turntable to eliminate the "S" curve. 

On the left side, there are two elevated tracks and two tracks beneath in a very close space.   How will you scenic this, a trestle bridge above running the entire length of the wall?  Or perhaps the elevated layout will be on a shelf, substantially (18"+) above the lower level? (substantially higher so you can see the lower level without the shelf blocking the view and breaking the illusion).

Innovative and well thought out!  -Ken

Very nice Gerhardt. A comment or two- but of course its your RR your rules.

I love turn tables but they are massive real estate hogs. Consider eliminating it for an engine house, or another yard and some industries. A small town would look good in that space as well. I know you said running trains is key but that gets old quick. If you are set on keeping the TT then I agree with Ken on shifting the lead. You could also eliminate one or two whiskers on the bottom and add a short passing siding along the reversing loop, or a small yard with a couple of sidings. You didn't mention operating accessories but if you plan to use some they take up a lot of space so plan accordingly.

I see a lot of track and not enough storage space for cars too.

On the upper lever the reversing loop needs a second or once you reverse a train you can't turn it again without backing through the loop. Eliminating the reverse would open up more viewing of the lower level. Consider adding a set of turnouts so you can switch trains between the loops as well. Those long straights are perfect spots for the crossovers. This would allow you to park a train on the main and have another pass, very prototypical.

Good luck.

Bob

If there is no room to walk along the north or west sides, how will you fix the "Murphy's law" derailments that will occur behind the proposed turntable and roundhouse?  Are you going to crawl over those structures?

Chuck

I took some liberty and changed quite a bit of the upper level ovals. Most notably, I switched the O36 and O48 curves so the ovals are more concentric. I also changed the center-to-center spacing to be wider and added 2 crossovers so you can run trains around both ovals. I was going to take out the reversing loop because you really need 2 or you'll have to back out to reverse again, but I left it in and just made it smaller so you'l have more access to the main level.
(NOTE: I rotated the whole layout to better fit the screen, easy enough to rotate back.)

And here's another variation without the reversing loop where you'd run 1 train clockwise on the outer loop and 1 counter-clockwise on the inner loop.

Ken-Oscale posted:

Very nice presentation - Cheers!   Good design - around the room route over the lift-out bridge, and the loop to loop at the lower level.   Plus the elevated level.   Smart features overall.

One issue:  the aisleways look too tight.   One person rubbing against the edges of the layout - no visitors or a second operator inside.   But is appears there is plenty of space at the front of the layout - correct?

I can't tell what the sections are, what the curves are, etc.   So I can't inspect and perhaps make suggestions on the configuration in order to expand the aisle.   Perhaps move that spur on the lower level closer to the right side to expand the aisle.   If you have a more detailed or labeled diagram that would be helpful in evaluating your design.

It looks like the reverse curve into the turntable (Atlas?) looks like a problem.   Try a left-hand turnout a section back for your lead to the turntable to eliminate the "S" curve. 

On the left side, there are two elevated tracks and two tracks beneath in a very close space.   How will you scenic this, a trestle bridge above running the entire length of the wall?  Or perhaps the elevated layout will be on a shelf, substantially (18"+) above the lower level? (substantially higher so you can see the lower level without the shelf blocking the view and breaking the illusion).

Innovative and well thought out!  -Ken

Thanks Ken.  I really appreciate all the feedback. 

The benchwork has been in place for the lower loop for that past 12 months.  It could be wider, but seems to work as is.  The viewing area is more at the bottom of the layout as that's where I had to leave more room to access our pantry and freezer space.

The curves are:

1. O36 on the inside loop,  lower level

2. O72 with a O36 in the middle on outer loop, lower and upper levels (makes a O54 curve and works quite nicely, as the trains enter the curve gently, turn harder and then exit gently. 

3. O48 on inside loop, upper level with exception of the reverse loop

Good point on the turntable, I will play around with that and perhaps enter from the upper part of the loop as that is more direct. 

The "reverse" loop is actually there to allow me to have a spot for my Lionel Rotary Coal dump.  It will dump into a 397 coal loader below and then coal can be loaded onto cars on the lower loop.  I couldn't seem to find a different way to do this.  Any ideas?

The "plan" on the lower left side is to create an upper level that looks like it is supported by concrete posts as is done in some cities.  I may put the main station above there . It will be open below so you can see and have access to the trains there.  I plan to "break up" the remainder of that left side by having it part girder bridge and then have an MTH double bridge part way up to "break up" the bridge.  To get upper loop in a small space, this is where its more "toy train" than realistic although I've seen some great ideas done by others in the magazines, etc. 

I hope that gives more insight and I appreciate all the ideas as it helps me out so much!

Thanks,

G

DoubleDAZ posted:

I took some liberty and changed quite a bit of the upper level ovals. Most notably, I switched the O36 and O48 curves so the ovals are more concentric. I also changed the center-to-center spacing to be wider and added 2 crossovers so you can run trains around both ovals. I was going to take out the reversing loop because you really need 2 or you'll have to back out to reverse again, but I left it in and just made it smaller so you'l have more access to the main level.
(NOTE: I rotated the whole layout to better fit the screen, easy enough to rotate back.)

And here's another variation without the reversing loop where you'd run 1 train clockwise on the outer loop and 1 counter-clockwise on the inner loop.

 

Greetings Dave,

Thanks so much for the input and for taking the tie to do this for me.  Honestly, you folks on this forum are so helpful it is awesome. 

I'm very intrigued with what you've done and I really like it.  I didn't feel I could do a 2nd reversing loop, and so the primary purpose of this loop was to provide a way for me to use the Lionel rotary coal dump on upper level and dump into 397 on lower level.  However, now that I see what you've done, on the 2nd variation WITHOUT the reverse loop, if we added a switch to the end of the branch and connected it back to the loop, that could work, right?  Definitely opens up the lower level.  On my latest design, I was actually intending on having the area of that reversing loop to be a solid 2nd level,  with operating accessories and buildings.  But....how you've presented it allows it to be more layered and probably less "cluttered" (if that's possible with how much I've jammed in there).  What do you think?

Thanks, G 

DoubleDAZ posted:

I took some liberty and changed quite a bit of the upper level ovals. Most notably, I switched the O36 and O48 curves so the ovals are more concentric. I also changed the center-to-center spacing to be wider and added 2 crossovers so you can run trains around both ovals. I was going to take out the reversing loop because you really need 2 or you'll have to back out to reverse again, but I left it in and just made it smaller so you'l have more access to the main level.
(NOTE: I rotated the whole layout to better fit the screen, easy enough to rotate back.)

And here's another variation without the reversing loop where you'd run 1 train clockwise on the outer loop and 1 counter-clockwise on the inner loop.

 

Hi Dave,

Silly question, but how do I download the scarm attachments from the forum? It keeps opening in a new explorer page.  If you know how, please let me know! Thanks, G

PRR1950 posted:

If there is no room to walk along the north or west sides, how will you fix the "Murphy's law" derailments that will occur behind the proposed turntable and roundhouse?  Are you going to crawl over those structures?

Chuck

Hi Chuck,

Thanks, you are absolutely right, this is the crux of my layout design.  I have purchased a grabber arm from home depot and have used it a few times to fix derailments.  It's not ideal, but luckily I'm a tall guy so it seems to work.  The upper level will be a girder bridge style so the lower level underneath will be "open" so I can access better. 

If only I had a few more feet of space (says every model railroader I'm sure.....)

Thanks again,

G

RSJB18 posted:

Very nice Gerhardt. A comment or two- but of course its your RR your rules.

I love turn tables but they are massive real estate hogs. Consider eliminating it for an engine house, or another yard and some industries. A small town would look good in that space as well. I know you said running trains is key but that gets old quick. If you are set on keeping the TT then I agree with Ken on shifting the lead. You could also eliminate one or two whiskers on the bottom and add a short passing siding along the reversing loop, or a small yard with a couple of sidings. You didn't mention operating accessories but if you plan to use some they take up a lot of space so plan accordingly.

I see a lot of track and not enough storage space for cars too.

On the upper lever the reversing loop needs a second or once you reverse a train you can't turn it again without backing through the loop. Eliminating the reverse would open up more viewing of the lower level. Consider adding a set of turnouts so you can switch trains between the loops as well. Those long straights are perfect spots for the crossovers. This would allow you to park a train on the main and have another pass, very prototypical.

Good luck.

Bob

Thanks Bob! Yes....the turntable.  I've always wanted one and my original design didn't have one there, but then luck would have it and I got one for $30 from a fellow in my neighbourhood who had posted trains for sale online.  If you knew where I lived and how few people here have O scale trains, you would realize how rare indeed this find was!  Someone else bought the rest of the collection, but didn't want/need the turntable...

Ultimately, I may end up scrapping it.  I was planning to have some industries along the outside loop there by removing one of the whiskers of the turntable.  I have other spots where I have operating accessories planned but I don't know how to show this on SCARM.  Any suggestions anyone on how to do this?

I've answered the questions on the reversing loop in my other posts. It was merely to accommodate my Lionel Rotary Coal dump.  Seems that Dave has presented me with some other good options there!

For storage of cars, did you mean on the layout?  I created the long sidings on the lower left along the hallway access to try and store whole consists.  If you see any other ways for me to get more sidings in, let me know.

Thanks, G

Gerhardt posted:

Hi Dave,

Silly question, but how do I download the scarm attachments from the forum? It keeps opening in a new explorer page.  If you know how, please let me know! Thanks, G

You right-click on the filename and select Save File As.

Gerhardt posted:

DoubleDAZ posted:

I took some liberty and changed quite a bit of the upper level ovals. Most notably, I switched the O36 and O48 curves so the ovals are more concentric. I also changed the center-to-center spacing to be wider and added 2 crossovers so you can run trains around both ovals. I was going to take out the reversing loop because you really need 2 or you'll have to back out to reverse again, but I left it in and just made it smaller so you'l have more access to the main level.
(NOTE: I rotated the whole layout to better fit the screen, easy enough to rotate back.)

And here's another variation without the reversing loop where you'd run 1 train clockwise on the outer loop and 1 counter-clockwise on the inner loop.

 

Hi Dave,

Silly question, but how do I download the scarm attachments from the forum? It keeps opening in a new explorer page.  If you know how, please let me know! Thanks, G

Nevermind, I got it figured out.  For anyone else who doesn't know, you right click, "save target as" and then it saves and you can open with Scarm.  Thanks,G

Gerhardt posted:

However, now that I see what you've done, on the 2nd variation WITHOUT the reverse loop, if we added a switch to the end of the branch and connected it back to the loop, that could work, right?

Like this?

DoubleDAZ posted:

Gerhardt posted:

However, now that I see what you've done, on the 2nd variation WITHOUT the reverse loop, if we added a switch to the end of the branch and connected it back to the loop, that could work, right?

Like this?

Exactly!  Now to play around with the lower level sidings etc as this totally changes what I was doing there. Awesome!! Thanks!

And here are some changes to the lower level to fix most of the joints and remove the S curve going into the turntable.

Ken-Oscale posted:

Very nice presentation - Cheers!   Good design - around the room route over the lift-out bridge, and the loop to loop at the lower level.   Plus the elevated level.   Smart features overall...……………………...

Innovative and well thought out!  -Ken

I agree with Ken. I'm always amazed to see the level of planning and design you guys have.

My favorite method: I draw out with a pencil on a piece of graph paper, then trace the routes with my finger to see if it would work out as planned.

Then my favorite part; I lay tracks down on a measured section of floor and, while on my knees, refine it. Same method I used as a kid 

G & Dave,

I didn't like the crossover in the tunnel and its distance from the aisle so I swapped them.  I also got rid of the cut section of track.

Jan

G, is this what you have in mind for the lower level beneath the track on top?

DoubleDAZ posted:

G, is this what you have in mind for the lower level beneath the track on top?

 

Yeah generally. I was thinking of adding some sidings are something. I’ll have a look tonight when I’m at my computer. Thanks again!

Ok, so here's the latest.  The spur on the lower loop adjacent to the Rotary Coal Tipple spur needs to be offset to give room for the tipple and 397 loader so I moved it over.  I also tried (almost successfully) to access the turntable via the other part of the loop, which eliminated any S curve and also allows me to use an O36 switch.

How do you figure out exact spacings to eliminate small gaps, etc.? Is there any way to add the buildings, or do you just put text in to allocate those spaces?  Thanks again to all of you for your input!

G