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"As I mentioned above, they would have been ahead to just rework the 734 and put savings towards fixing the track and other issues."  

In 2013, when I took over as the General Superintendent, #734 had about 300 operating days (roughly 3 operating years) left on her rebuild.  The WMSR Board of Directors had not yet began planning for #734's rebuild, which was expected to cost approx $1M using in-house labor.  WMSR only had about half of that in cash reserve.  Add to that average per ticket revenue was dropping by about 10% per year (meaning discounts and ticket giveaways were being used to bolster ridership), so annual revenue was falling.  Clearly, #734 while loved by many, was not drawing people like it once did.   By mid-summer of 2013, in conversations I had with Bob Flanigan (Mayor of Frostburg and V.P. of the board), we concluded that WMSR had 3 years left to survive if significant steps were not taken to reverse the downward trend.  

Rebuilding #734 was discussed, but doing a proper rebuild would take the locomotive out of service for multiple years.  IF WMSR was to have steam in continuous service, something would have to be acquired to rebuild before #734 went out of service (remember we had a two year head start on #1309).  #734's boiler was going to need significant work, including patches, staybolts, and sheet work as those items had not been addressed in over 15 years.  Acquiring a second steam locomotive would also allow WMSR to go to full steam operations at some point in the future (WMSR was steam for about 50% of the operating days per year). 

Working with Cas Taylor (former Speaker of the Maryland House and key proponent of the Canal Place/WMSR development), we began looking for funding.  The state of MD was interested in supporting the WMSR, but was NOT interested in funding "the same old show" as it was not drawing the crowds it once did.  So the question for WMSR became, in reality, "Do we want to remain steam or convert to diesel?".  The decision from the board of directors was to remain steam.  Now the choice was rebuild #734 or something else.  

The only real chance to remain steam was to start on something new and try to have it done when #734 went out of service.  The reasoning was two-fold.  First, the State of MD didn't have much interest in funding of "the same old show".  Second, there was not money in reserve to finish #734's rebuild meaning part would be financed ($400 to $700K estimated in borrowed funding).  According to surveys and studies we completed in 2013, approximately 30% of our passengers came because of steam power.  We expected a corresponding loss of ridership if steam were not available.  Debt service would cost about $100K per year, and the ridership drop would result in a revenue loss of approximately $300K per year.  

When we started looking for something new, we considered what was needed.  Greater tractive effort was desired as we were operating helpers about 30% of the time, with their added costs.  Something of regional interest was desired.  A trailing truck was desired, as #734 did NOT like operating in reserve and would frequently derail.  Finally, something of historical interest was desired.  We considered 5 different options, including the WM #202 in Hagerstown.  Ultimately, the #1309 presented itself as the best solution as would have the T.E. to eliminate most helper operations, have historical significance (last commercially built steam locomotive built for a U.S. railroad), be easier on the track (shorter wheel base and relatively low axle loading), and be more thermally efficient than #734 (combustion chamber and secondary expansion although offset by a 15% increase in grate area).  A survey was done on #1309 by the C.M.O. and the findings were presented to the Board of Directors for a vote which was approved.  Mike Brant (President of the WMSR BoD and a board member continuously for the past 20 years) and Bob Flanigan (V.P. of the WMSR BoD) were there for the vote on #1309 and are still in those positions today.  So in many ways, it is many of the same people there today despite their desire to claim "previous administration".  

While the merits and problems of #1309 can always be discussed, the project resulted in more ridership including attracting "Smithsonian Tours"  who called WMSR their best new destination in 2015.  It brought much needed publicity to the railroad, including exposure in Europe.  We started the WMSR Foundation (volunteer department) which reached 300, dues-paying members in 2015.  Before #1309, WMSR's Facebook "friends" was about 500 people.  By the time I left in Jan 2016, it had grown to over 13,000 people in all 50 states and 44 counties and we had international travelers coming to Cumberland, MD to see #1309.  It helped bring Gov Hogan to western Maryland and in doing so, helped WMSR to get a $1.6M grant because he liked the operation and was excited about it.  We had a great team supporting #1309, but #1309 is what was driving so many good things happening at WMSR.  

Trying to leave emotions out of the discussion, but this is what drove the decisions behind #1309.

Mike Gresham

WMSR1 posted:

 

 

Trying to leave emotions out of the discussion, but this is what drove the decisions behind #1309.

Mike Gresham

Mike, 

Thank you for the authoritative response.  I'm sure it is very difficult to leave out those emotions! 

Personally, I wish WMSR the best and do, one day, look forward to seeing 1309 in steam and climbing those hills.  

Bob

There was a decline in ridership before getting 1309.  10% is a big drop.  Was the question ever asked:  WHY?   Was it people tired of the same engine?  Or something the railroad was doing that in some way was turning people away?

And it seems in some of these posts mention a 2 to 3 year countdown to a "doomsday" if something was not done. 

I am wandering why the governments which gave money to this railroad did not ask the same questions.

Last edited by Dominic Mazoch

Thank you, Mike Gresham, for setting the record straight regarding the decision to rebuild #1309. Hopefully that will end the various baseless speculations going on here . I'm sure it was not an easy decision because the issue of falling ticket revenue is at the heart of it and the public is, indeed, fickle and only time will tell if #1309 reinvigorates ridership. I hope it will because [re]build it and they (railfans) will come. The question will be how many.

Lew

WMSR1 posted:

 

While the merits and problems of #1309 can always be discussed, the project resulted in more ridership including attracting "Smithsonian Tours"  who called WMSR their best new destination in 2015.  It brought much needed publicity to the railroad, including exposure in Europe.  We started the WMSR Foundation (volunteer department) which reached 300, dues-paying members in 2015.  Before #1309, WMSR's Facebook "friends" was about 500 people.  By the time I left in Jan 2016, it had grown to over 13,000 people in all 50 states and 44 counties and we had international travelers coming to Cumberland, MD to see #1309.  It helped bring Gov Hogan to western Maryland and in doing so, helped WMSR to get a $1.6M grant because he liked the operation and was excited about it.  We had a great team supporting #1309, but #1309 is what was driving so many good things happening at WMSR.  

 

Mike Gresham

But after this person left the WMSR, all of the above fell apart in 3 years.

Who does that fall on? Garner alone, or the persons on the board, or both?

Rich Melvin posted:

A steam locomotive cannot turn a wheel ANYWHERE until the FRA inspection is complete. Either the reporter got it wrong or Garner said it awkwardly.

It will take about 300 miles to work out the kinks and break in the brasses. That’s what he was talking about.

That would mark the first time in history that the media got the details of a story about trains or railroads completely wrong. 

Yes, I'm being sarcastic.

nathansixchime posted:

I think I count 31 round-trips! Pretty much a whole season of "break-in" runs with no centerbeam equalizer on the trailing trucks

I came up with a different answer.

One way, the trip 16 miles, so round trip is 32 miles.
So, 500 miles (break-in miles) divided by 32 miles (round trip) is 15.625 trips or let's say 15 and a half trips

 

Bryan Smith posted:
nathansixchime posted:

I think I count 31 round-trips! Pretty much a whole season of "break-in" runs with no centerbeam equalizer on the trailing trucks

I came up with a different answer.

One way, the trip 16 miles, so round trip is 32 miles.
So, 500 miles (break-in miles) divided by 32 miles (round trip) is 15.625 trips or let's say 15 and a half trips

 Kelly may have only counted the one-way trips UNDER LOAD, i.e. ascending the grade. Not much would be accomplished on the down-grade, in reverse, in my opinion.

 

If anyone is interested, there was a live 50 minute video posted by "That Steam Guy" on Facebook which was a walk through of the WMSR shop. He covered many different aspects of the 1309 restoration. If you go to Facebook and search for "That Steam Guy" you will find the video posted to his page. Trains is supposed to be doing their own live video update on 1309 today (8/14) as well. 

"There was a decline in ridership before getting 1309.  10% is a big drop.  Was the question ever asked:  WHY?   Was it people tired of the same engine?  Or something the railroad was doing that in some way was turning people away?"

I can not answer if Frank Fowler (my predecessor) or John ever looked into why their ridership was falling.  However, I certainly did and the answer is multi-faceted.  First, yes, #734 was not generating the interest it once did.   To give a quote from one guest on a photo charter, “What else can be done with 734 that hasn’t been done before?”.  We did have better success when we opened the photo freight charters to new operators and started to repaint our freight cars (through the WMSR Foundation) into era appropriate paint schemes.  However, the point was well-heard and echoed by many general and special event riders, alike.  The second major facet was the reliability of the equipment.  In short, it wasn’t.  I remember the day of the July 2013 Board meeting, we had 3 of 5 air conditioning systems fail on the passenger cars.  Yes, a 60% failure rate.  The equipment was tired, not maintained, and becoming very unreliable; critical when every car we had was closed-window and climate controlled.  The third facet was no budget to clean windows, toilets, stock the train, etc. resulting in a poor customer experience with reeking bathrooms, windows you couldn't see out of, etc.  The third facet was the Board mentality that we used the highest capacity equipment (ex-MARC and LIRR commuter cars) to cram the most people into a car regardless of aesthetic appeal or passenger comfort.  We got consistent complaints about “if I wanted to ride a commuter car, I could have ridden MARC, VRE or WMATA!”.  We aggressively addressed these problems and ridership and reviews started improving.  By the end of 2015, our “Tripadvisor” reviews averaged 4.5 out of 5 and were usually the #1 or #2 attraction in Cumberland.  The last major facet was a general lack of advertising.  Allegheny County Tourism handled advertising for WMSR, but wouldn't use our logo, name or address to avoid the perception of favoritism to any one business in the county.  Great exposure but a lot of people didn't know our name or where to find us.  We partnered with our website provider (Cumberland based Willets Systems) to develop online advertising and devise a social media strategy (previously discussed).  We also started doing special functions combined with radio advertising that brought great visibility to WMSR.  For example, in 2013 for our 25th Anniversary/Steel Wheels event, we brought in one of the Grammling's small steam locomotives, had special runs into West Virginia (which required bringing the track up to class 1 condition) and additional "Hands on the Throttle" events.  In 2014, we hosted the Amtrak Exhibit Train.  Our attendance to the Exhibit Train (4K in Amtrak's round numbers) in Cumberland, MD was second only to Los Angeles, CA (4.4K) that year.  Attendance to the 2013 Steel Wheels Festival/25th Anniversary Event brought people in from as far as Idaho (I remember talking to you if you read this!).  Over 5,600 people attended the 2014 "Steel Wheels" festival (attendance of the Exhibit Train and ridership).  

"Who does that fall on? Garner alone, or the persons on the board, or both?"

I’m not going to answer this question in the traditional sense out of respect to the moderators of this board and their desire to keep things civil.  However, I will say that the single largest reason I announced to the Board in August of 2015 that I intended to leave WMSR in six months was because of being demanded to do things that were borderline illegal.  Such things included their desire to sell tickets for #1309's debut to generate revenue when I and the Board KNEW it wouldn't be ready by the date for which they wanted ticket sales.  

The rest, as they say, is history. 

Mike Gresham

 

WMSR1 posted:

 

"Who does that fall on? Garner alone, or the persons on the board, or both?"

I’m not going to answer this question in the traditional sense out of respect to the moderators of this board and their desire to keep things civil.  However, I will say that the single largest reason I announced to the Board in August of 2015 that I intended to leave WMSR in six months was because of being demanded to do things that were borderline illegal.  Such things included their desire to sell tickets for #1309's debut to generate revenue when I and the Board KNEW it wouldn't be ready by the date for which they wanted ticket sales.  

The rest, as they say, is history. 

Mike Gresham

 

Having grown up in Allegany County, I would not be surprised at anything.
The beer distributor I worked for several years before leaving the area operated in much the same fashion.

I forgot to mention one thing in regard to the issue of the turntable (see Hotwater's comment).   The curvature in question is 22.5 degrees, #1309 has a minimum of 22 degrees.  From memory (I won't swear to this), #734 had a minimum of 22 degrees as well with a longer wheelbase yet made it just fine.  Of course, we greased the flanges regularly too.  

The other issue is one of the apex of the grade and if it would create a water surge or low-water condition as it climbed over the apex of the grade with #1309's longer boiler and front articulation.  Often, #734 would raise her last axle off the rail as she apexed the grade.  It is one reason why you saw the "old" firemen get down on the ground and watch as she moved onto the turntable to make sure the lateral didn't cause a derailment.  This was a known problem for years and was never addressed.  We planned to fix the issue once and for all with #1309 and calculated the fix into the budget.  

For those familiar with track work, it's a pretty simple procedure to regrade the short area needed with ballast and tamping (building up the apex over a longer area to lessen the grade).  That was part of a plan to extend the Frostburg siding to allow #1309 to pass a maximum-length consist (14 cars) to allow operation in both directions.  This would also align the grade of the track with that of the grade of the platform to correct height differences between the passenger cars and the platform.  The designs were already discussed with the contractor.  The cost was around $100K for all of the work, with our track crew supporting the contractor and our track.  

Mike Gresham

WMSR1 posted:

 

I’m not going to answer this question in the traditional sense out of respect to the moderators of this board and their desire to keep things civil.  However, I will say that the single largest reason I announced to the Board in August of 2015 that I intended to leave WMSR in six months was because of being demanded to do things that were borderline illegal.  Such things included their desire to sell tickets for #1309's debut to generate revenue when I and the Board KNEW it wouldn't be ready by the date for which they wanted ticket sales.  

The rest, as they say, is history. 

Mike Gresham

 

Not to mention that "The Magazine of Railroading", i.e. Trains Magazine, totally jumped the gun and actively promoted & sponsored many of those early announced "special runs".  Just my opinion but, I still think that someone should have taken the folks at Trains Magazine to task over all that mess!

Borden Tunnel posted:

Much more in today's Cumberland Times-News, including the identity of the auditor, Randy Gustafson, a rather well-known railfan.

Full report from Stone consulting at  gov.allconet.org.

29 pages of how to run a tourist RR into the ground.

Mr. Gustafson also makes a real boner in identifying the Cumberland & Pennsylvania portion of the route as the FM&P? and ex-PRR?

No excuse if you can't bother looking at a map.

Dominic Mazoch posted:

That audit should have been done BEFORE purchasing 1309.

As far as the maintenance goes, yes.

This is a great example of how deferred maintenance will eventually kill a property.  "Wreck of the Penn Central", anyone?

I would say there are probably ties still there from the 1950s-60s, after 1968, the Connellsville Sub saw little work from Chessie.

Unfortunately the turnover of administrations and a very conservative BOD has contributed to this problem over the years.
As good as the audit is in pointing WMSR's problems and possible solutions, the author completely fails some of the history of these lines, which is just typical of today's society. Perhaps he got a bad history lesson from Garner.
I think WMSR's best course of action going forward would be for the current board and Garner to be sacked, and the operation offered to the Robert Franzen group, who is now operating the Potomac Eagle in nearby Romney,WV.

WMSR needs professional railroaders in charge, not wanna-bes.

Borden Tunnel posted:

As good as the audit is in pointing WMSR's problems and possible solutions, the author completely fails some of the history of these lines,

What the **** does the "history of the lines" have to do with the condition the railroad is in today?? This audit lays out what needs to be done in the future.

KOOLjock1 posted:

Our generation went places.  The next generation surfs YouTube.

Jon  

That isn't true,  the decline in places like Disneyworld is in part economics (the cost of it), and also is based on the fact that there is saturation with it (from what I understand, for example, the Star Wars based attractions have flopped, big time, in part because that doesn't appeal to younger generations the way it did to us old farts). National parks are seeing record attendance, for example, a lot of this is the younger generations from what I can tell are a lot more interested in active recreation like camping and hiking, despite being the social networking generation. Plus there simply are a lot more places competing for people's dollars these days, that plays a role, too, just ask all the states that have now built casinos and found out there is such a thing as a zero sum game, that between the competition between physical casinos and the virtual casinos, many of them are struggling. 

Could also be that we are in a population gap, where the baby boomers are aging out, and you haven't hit the next boom yet (Gen X was not as big a group, and they also are in the phase of life where many of them have kids who are older or grown up, the next generations, while larger, are not in the phase yet of having families in numbers (getting married/having kids later), and perhaps in the next period as young families grow it will go up again. 

smd4 posted:
Borden Tunnel posted:

As good as the audit is in pointing WMSR's problems and possible solutions, the author completely fails some of the history of these lines,

What the **** does the "history of the lines" have to do with the condition the railroad is in today?? This audit lays out what needs to be done in the future.

It has everything to do with the current condition of these lines that's what. Go back and reread the 1st part of my comment. This railroad was pieced together from 2 separate railroad lines, one was a 1850s shortline, the other was a modern era heavy duty main line. The many decades of deferred maintenance has as much to do with the WMSR's problems as the financial problems. 
The author's inaccuracies in the history detracts from the other facts in the report, and is particularly offensive to those of us who know better.

Maybe you're not into being factually correct about history, but I am; save your #*%! for somebody else.

With all due respect, the history of these lines has almost nothing to do with the state of the railroad TODAY.

I read the entire report. The deferred maintenance discussed in the report stems from decisions made by Chessie/CSX 20 to 40 years ago, not 150 years ago. The report stated that the former Western Maryland section is built to higher/heavier standards than the old PRR section of the line, but beyond that, the history of the line has nothing to do with the existing tie conditions that they have to deal with today.

I fail to see how this could be “offensive” to anyone. This report isn’t a history lesson, it’s a serious analysis of the state of the Western Maryland Scenic Railway business condition, the condition of railroad today and the problems they face going forward.

Last edited by Rich Melvin
Borden Tunnel posted:

Maybe you're not into being factually correct about history, but I am; save your #*%! for somebody else.

Like Rich said, the report isn't a history lesson. The fact that the railroad was "pieced together from two separate railroads" doesn't help with deteriorating ties, tiny volunteer base, obsolete equipment, poor scenic views, stolen brasses or anything else. Heck, the "history" that has you so worked up comprised 12 typed characters in a 30 page document, and was said in passing ("ex FM&P (ex-PRR)"). 

 

Rich Melvin posted:

With all due respect, the history of these lines has almost nothing to do with the state of the railroad TODAY.

I read the entire report. The deferred maintenance discussed in the report stems from decisions made by Chessie/CSX 20 to 40 years ago, not 150 years ago. The report stated that the former Western Maryland section is built to higher/heavier standards than the old PRR section of the line, but beyond that, the history of the line has nothing to do with the existing tie conditions that they have to deal with today.

I fail to see how this could be “offensive” to anyone. This report isn’t a history lesson, it’s a serious analysis of the state of the Western Maryland Scenic Railway business condition, the condition of railroad today and the problems they face going forward.

But it does.

1. Chessie cut through service on this line in 1975, that's 44 years ago. Regular maintenance was cut back when the B&O/C&O consolidation plans were announced in 1968.

2. The WMSR portion of the WM mainline was only used for local service and car storage until the mid-1980s.

3. The PRR had nothing to do with the 2 miles of trackage that split off from the WM main at #9 switch to go to Frostburg. The nearest PRR point is 12 miles away in Ellerslie,MD. I would also like to know where the author got his reference about the FM&P, which is a B&O line in PA and WVA.

4. The Cumberland & Pennsylvania RR is the 1850s shortline that built into this area first to haul coal. While the sharp curves and steep grades remain on the 2 mile section into Frostburg, the original tracks(90lb rail) here were torn up in 1972, and were relaid in 1988 using the stub of the WM main from #9 Switch to Borden Tunnel. This means that the entire WMSR route has 132lb. rail, but the curves and grades remain. In C&P/WM steam, that meant nothing bigger than 2-8-0s or Russian Decapods. No 6-axle diesels.

5. The first year of operation under Jack Showalter proved how wise it was to relay the C&P trackage as it was the smoothest on the railroad's route. Jack was not impressed with the line's condition, even back in 1989.

6. The problems with drainage, landslides, tree growth, etc. all go back 50 years to B&O/C&O. There has been very little effort from WMSR or anyone else over 30 years to aggressively combat what Chessie neglected. The only brush/ tree removal seemed to occur when Carl Franz did his photo charters.

7. The trail people seem to think that they are exempt from doing anything to help maintain the trail and its viewscapes.

8. Finally, as a native of this area, I am offended when a report like this is put out with inaccurate historical data. 
While I expect indifference from the millenial bunch, I would think that a experienced and respected person like Rich Melvin would care a little more and be able to understand the "big picture". I think he would feel the same as me if one of his beloved NKP lines was maligned.

 

Rich Melvin posted:

With all due respect, the history of these lines has almost nothing to do with the state of the railroad TODAY.

I read the entire report. The deferred maintenance discussed in the report stems from decisions made by Chessie/CSX 20 to 40 years ago, not 150 years ago. The report stated that the former Western Maryland section is built to higher/heavier standards than the old PRR section of the line, but beyond that, the history of the line has nothing to do with the existing tie conditions that they have to deal with today.

I fail to see how this could be “offensive” to anyone. This report isn’t a history lesson, it’s a serious analysis of the state of the Western Maryland Scenic Railway business condition, the condition of railroad today and the problems they face going forward.

The simple fact is that the track issue is nothing different than what almost every tourist railroad in existence faces.  These places operate far closer to the edge than what most managers would be comfortable with, and that a proper tie replacement and brushcutting program had been inadequate for many, many years.  Being a mountain railroad with far greater than "average" stresses and wear placed on the equipment once you get on the C&P for the final few miles to Frostburg only makes it that much more expensive to operate.  Couple that with the landslide, which severely cut into tickets and available money, the challenges with 1309, and a complete management (and steam department) changeover, and this is where we are.

Track conditions have worsened precipitously in the past several years since it's rather obvious they are doing everything they can to barely stay afloat.  Track maintenance has basically ground to a halt, which is about the first thing that is cut when you are trying to stay alive.  They are paying the price of years of band-aid repairs (which went well beyond the steam program), and are living on a wing and a prayer regarding the current landslide situation.

The question becomes can they survive another hit of losing Frostburg for another undetermined amount of time as the swiss cheese of coal mines below the railway continues to shift.  That ticking time bomb appears to be inevitable.  They have a very qualified steam crew working, and the engine will be in great shape whenever it's ready, but I fear 1309 may soon be the least of their problems....

Last edited by kgdjpubs

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