1951 Santa Fe F3 ABA set Extremely slow, barely moves, repaint?

There are 4 worm wheels, 4 worms on 2 shafts, 6 spur/straight cut gears including the idlers, 4 worm shaft bushings/pillow blocks, 2 armature shafts, 2 idler studs, 4 axles, and 8 axle bushings that need to be lubed as part of regular maintenance on these. You did all that first, right?  That's a trick question, as it takes a couple of hours(longer if it's been a while) to do all of this right starting with cleaning out all of the old lubricant & oil, and reapplying with modern synthetics.

It should then run like new.

Actually no, I have not done any internal maintenance on this engine yet.  I had to find missing screws and replace a missing truck on one of the dummies and replace one of the dummy couplers.  

I wanted to get a baseline of how it runs before I did anything to it internally.  

Would taking the drive assemblies apart, cleaning them with crc contact cleaner then lubing them with something like Breakfree CLP be advised?

@bobotech posted:

 

Would taking the drive assemblies apart, cleaning them with crc contact cleaner then lubing them with something like Breakfree CLP be advised?

Yup! Aside form a general service, be sure to get the worm drive bearing caps in place in the correct orientation and check that the field lamination rivets are tight tight tight.

Not sure about the Breakfree CLP - I use Red 'n Tacky #2 grease on the gears and Labelle 108 or Mobile 1 Synthetic 5W-30 as a light oil.

First, I'd suggest that you stop running that engine until you determine what the problem is and fix it.  

Second, lose the two dummy units until the powered one one is running right. Dragging that excess weight around isn't doing the powered unit any good.

Third. remove the shell from the powered A so you can see what's going on inside. It sounds and looks to me like only one motor is running and it's dragging the other one around on stationary wheels.

Fourth: check the length and condition of the motor brushes. Clean out the brush holders and clean or replace the brushes as necessary. Open up the motors and clean the armature faces and slots. Clean and lube as necessary.

This is the easy stuff and should be done first. Then you can go into the trucks themselves and attend to them per the great info ADCXRob gave you above. Make sure you note and maintain the orientation of the four pillow blocks. Put them back wrong and it won't run right.

As for the paint, it's hard to tell in the video clips above, but the red looks good to me. The silver and the striping doesn't show up well enough for comment. You can replace the warbonnet nose markings and other decals without repainting the shells. Of course any restorative work you do will diminish or destroy the "originality" of these units.

I agree with ADCX Rob again: given a little effort and some TLC, they'll run like new again.

Crank

As noted above it's time to disassemble the motors and trucks and clean everything. Clean the brushes and springs and if any look worn replace them. Clean the commutator as well. Grease and oil the motor with your preferred products. Same goes for the trucks. Remove all the grease and oil, make sure to reassemble everything correctly, and re-grease and oil everything. Once completed the locomotive should run like new and have very good performance throughout the throttle range. It should be flying around 12 volts or so.

I've got a 1951 vintage set of 2343s. They're the only Postwar locomotives I own. The A units have had the frame repainted and Lionel Conventional Classics shells replaced the worn Postwar originals. The powered A unit has an ERR AC Commander and I added a Railsounds B unit and another modern (90s) era B unit to the set. They run beautifully for what they are.

Lou, those are beautiful!!  I hope i can make mine run as nice someday.   

@bobotech what kind of transformer are you using?

Dual-motored diesels can easily take 4 amps or more.  I would say that you need an LW (125 watts) or better to let these pull a train without straining. 

Also, fasttrack is known to have the occasional bad section which translates to lost voltage.  Adding a second set of power wires to the opposite side of your loop might improve performance.  If your floor isn't level, put your power connection at the highest point.

I would bet that with a good cleaning and fresh lube these will run great!

I have the 2353.  They do take a lot of current to get going.  But the mass of the locomotive gives it a flywheel effect.

Also, take the powered A unit.  See if the Magnetraction still works.

My first set was a 2353 passenger set that had set like new for at least 25 years. The previous owner received them for Christmas in 1954 and had cared for them incredibly well. Even with that, when I acquired them after his passing the worm gears were loaded with frozen grease. In fact the thrust bearing oil in the motors was gummy. I tried CLP, Kroil and neither would clear all the grease and oil out. Finally, I stumbled on to WD-40 contact cleaner and it melted all the old lubricants  allowing the motor and drive gears to turn freely. I completed cleaning and performed the lubrication process as cited above and the engine is a pulling machine. Mine pulled 25 early postwar cars with no problem. Anyway make sure its the Contact Cleaner and not the regular WD-40 (never use this on any machine). Also, I always keep plastic shells on a separate table when I work on Motors or Mechanisms.

I run REA refers and COFC and 6400 series ATSF passenger cars behind the 2353.  My version of the FAST MAIL.   

I did a little work on it tonight.  I opened it up and the insides were so clean.  

I did do a external lube only for now using some clp.  Ran it for a bit on it's back and confirmed both of the trucks are driving. 

Put it on the track and it appears to be running nicer than it was before.  

Looks good to me. Keep going with cleaning and lubrication as mentioned by others and it will be running like new. 

Now the only thing is to get the horn working.  I put a fresh alkaline D cell into the battery compartment after cleaning all the old acid damage (not too bad) and it buzzes when I hit the button but thats it, just buzzes.  Hopefully I can fix that too. 

As far as the motors go, they sound a lot better since I did the external lube to them.  I'm going leave it alone for right now since it appears to be running much better for now.  

But I would love to get that horn working again.   

Paint:

Looks great in the pics and videos. They're only original once. I'd be inclined to gently clean them and leave them like they are.

Horn:

See if this video helps...

Good luck!

Andre

bobotech......Olsens has a web site with original pages from Lionel's repair manual. Go to Lionel post war then roll down to 2343. Click on the small thumb nail,roll down the parts lists to PDF's of the 2343. There are four or five very helpful drawings of the internals. It looks to me that a gentle cleaning with Dawn dish soap and a soft brush will really help the plastic shell. The front Santa Fe decal is very easy to damage. Just blot it with a soft cloth. Also the red/yellow stripes need to treated the same way. check the brushes and motor comentator (sp?) they are almost always oily and dirty. Use oil lightly.

Richard 

http://pictures.olsenstoy.com/searchcd1.htm 

@Mill69 posted:

My first set was a 2353 passenger set that had set like new for at least 25 years. The previous owner received them for Christmas in 1954 and had cared for them incredibly well. Even with that, when I acquired them after his passing the worm gears were loaded with frozen grease. In fact the thrust bearing oil in the motors was gummy. I tried CLP, Kroil and neither would clear all the grease and oil out. Finally, I stumbled on to WD-40 contact cleaner and it melted all the old lubricants  allowing the motor and drive gears to turn freely. I completed cleaning and performed the lubrication process as cited above and the engine is a pulling machine. Mine pulled 25 early postwar cars with no problem. Anyway make sure its the Contact Cleaner and not the regular WD-40 (never use this on any machine). Also, I always keep plastic shells on a separate table when I work on Motors or Mechanisms.

With old lubricating gunk, it's not unusual to have a hard time even turning the wheels.  I use a method that always works.  I let the mechanism (not including motor)  soak in mineral spirits for several hours - or overnight.  The drench it with very hot water for a short time and let dry, then lubricate.  After that treatment, I usually find that they will roll a long way with a light push. 

@laming posted:

Paint:

Looks great in the pics and videos. They're only original once. I'd be inclined to gently clean them and leave them like they are.

Horn:

See if this video helps...

Good luck!

Andre

Dang.  I can't figure it out.  My horn looks spotless.   I actually gently followed the instructions.   I took the top part off the main frame.  Spotless, hardly a spec of rust anywhere.  If you look at that thumbnail above, you see that metal leaf that is dark brown with surface rust?  Mine is still the original shiny gunmetal color.   

I gently cleaned everything and put it back together, and the horn doesn't react at all.   I tried even touching a 1.5v battery to the lead and ground and nothing.   

Dang. 

@bobotech posted:

 

As far as the motors go, they sound a lot better since I did the external lube to them.  I'm going leave it alone for right now since it appears to be running much better for now.  

   

I'd hope that you would do right by these SF units.  NOT cleaning out the old lube, replacing motor brushes, etc. is a disservice to what looks like a fine locomotive.  Hey, they are yours to do with as you please--just disappointing to see how little you are willing to do with an audience that could get you through these basic tasks.

@Pingman posted:

I'd hope that you would do right by these SF units.  NOT cleaning out the old lube, replacing motor brushes, etc. is a disservice to what looks like a fine locomotive.  Hey, they are yours to do with as you please--just disappointing to see how little you are willing to do with an audience that could get you through these basic tasks.

Don't worry, I'm going to go through them.  I just want to get spare parts and brushes first to have on hand when I do the full motor service.    To me it's kind of silly to do a service without tune up parts.  

I'm not running them other than for testing.  I have no layout at this time.  

Replace brushes, brush springs, and clean all the old grease/oil out of the trucks and they should run even better. It should be flying at 20 volts when tuned up. You'll probably only need 12 or so volts to get the unit moving at a good clip with a train. 

For those of us who buy, clean, repair and resell, those horns are a chronic nuisance.  It's so unusual to fine one that works.  When I list it on in eBAY, the standard text is something like    " Horn relay tested and working fine.  Usual non-working horn".  It doesn't affect the price because anyone with much experience with those engines might collapse from the shock if the horn actually worked.

Another question, is there an OGR advertiser that is recommended to buy the tune-up parts from?  I would rather support a business that advertises here rather than Ebay. 

@S AND W  - http://www.sandwparts.com/

@Harry Henning - https://hennings-trains.shoplightspeed.com/   ; http://www.henningstrains.com/

@Lou1985 posted:

Replace brushes, brush springs, and clean all the old grease/oil out of the trucks and they should run even better. It should be flying at 20 volts when tuned up. You'll probably only need 12 or so volts to get the unit moving at a good clip with a train. 

I politely disagree.  You never said what kind of transformer you were using, but the headlight brightness doesn't suggest anything close to 20 volts.  Because of voltage drops in the track, high-resistance joints, etc., you have to measure volts at the rail head.  C urrent draw (amps) is also a good indicator of locomotive health.

Unless you have experience, I wouldn't mess with the motors too much.  Many of the brushes sold today as replacements are absolutely the wrong resistance for these old motors, and it will run worse.  On their best days, these horizontal-motored F3s ("growlers") weren't speed demons, AND THAT'S A GOOD THING!  I would make sure the axles on your "dummy units" roll freely and that might help.

I agree with mclaughlinnyc, I wouldn't sweat the horn too much, they are known to be balky.  Congrats on scoring a couple of primo postwar trains!!

@Ted S posted:

I politely disagree.  You never said what kind of transformer you were using, but the headlight brightness doesn't suggest anything close to 20 volts.  Because of voltage drops in the track, high-resistance joints, etc., you have to measure volts at the rail head.  C urrent draw (amps) is also a good indicator of locomotive health.

Unless you have experience, I wouldn't mess with the motors too much.  Many of the brushes sold today as replacements are absolutely the wrong resistance for these old motors, and it will run worse.  On their best days, these horizontal-motored F3s ("growlers") weren't speed demons, AND THAT'S A GOOD THING!  I would make sure the axles on your "dummy units" roll freely and that might help.

I agree with mclaughlinnyc, I wouldn't sweat the horn too much, they are known to be balky.  Congrats on scoring a couple of primo postwar trains!!

Uh my 2343 has an ERR AC Commander and I run it with TMCC, so 18V at the track means the headlamp circuit sees 14V max. Anyway I'm referring to the OP's 2343. He was cranking the voltage all the way up to get them to run at that slow speed in his first videos. After a cleaning/relube the OP's locomotive shouldn't need more than 12V to run at a good clip, and at 20V on a ZW the thing should try and launch into orbit.

@Ted S posted:

I politely disagree.  You never said what kind of transformer you were using, but the headlight brightness doesn't suggest anything close to 20 volts.  Because of voltage drops in the track, high-resistance joints, etc., you have to measure volts at the rail head.  C urrent draw (amps) is also a good indicator of locomotive health.

Unless you have experience, I wouldn't mess with the motors too much.  Many of the brushes sold today as replacements are absolutely the wrong resistance for these old motors, and it will run worse.  On their best days, these horizontal-motored F3s ("growlers") weren't speed demons, AND THAT'S A GOOD THING!  I would make sure the axles on your "dummy units" roll freely and that might help.

I agree with mclaughlinnyc, I wouldn't sweat the horn too much, they are known to be balky.  Congrats on scoring a couple of primo postwar trains!!

Regarding the transformer, I am currently using my Type 1044 which is rated for 16v.  

With no load, that is exactly what it puts out.  

In regard to brushes, I buy them only from the older parts suppliers who are selling dealer inventory that they bought up many years ago when that included original Lionel brushes.  Two that I know I can trust on that are Dr. tinker and Bill Harrison at S&W.

@bobotech posted:

Regarding the transformer, I am currently using my Type 1044 which is rated for 16v.  

With no load, that is exactly what it puts out.  

Right.  But while your loco is trying to pull the two dummies, what is the voltage on the rails at the far point opposite the transformer connection?

A normal F3 "growler" draws 3-4 amps.  The 1044 is a little underpowered for this loco.  With the train running, the load on the transformer is probably pulling the voltage down closer to 12V.  I also have experience with these locos.  I watched your videos, and especially in the second one with the loco running by itself, my opinion is that your loco is running fine at a "normal" speed for this design, allowing for typical play wear in the gears, etc.  I would be very surprised if new brushes make it run faster.  If you're an expert repair person and replace every part that's worn, it might run 10% faster.

You could actually time it around the track.  But you would have to recreate the test conditions exactly to demonstrate any improvement.  Not trying to start an argument, but Lou's engine isn't a good comparison because he's running it on command with a digital e-unit.

@Ted S posted:

Right.  But while your loco is trying to pull the two dummies, what is the voltage on the rails at the far point opposite the transformer connection?

A normal F3 "growler" draws 3-4 amps.  The 1044 is a little underpowered for this loco.  With the train running, the load on the transformer is probably pulling the voltage down closer to 12V.  I also have experience with these locos.  I watched your videos, and especially in the second one with the loco running by itself, my opinion is that your loco is running fine at a "normal" speed for this design, allowing for typical play wear in the gears, etc.  I would be very surprised if new brushes make it run faster.  If you're an expert repair person and replace every part that's worn, it might run 10% faster.

You could actually time it around the track.  But you would have to recreate the test conditions exactly to demonstrate any improvement.  Not trying to start an argument, but Lou's engine isn't a good comparison because he's running it on command with a digital e-unit.

Don't get me wrong.  I agree with you!   I was just showing my transformer so you can get a baseline of what I am starting out with.  I don't have my test track setup right now so I can't test the voltage with loads on it.  I do admit that the last running video with the 2 dummies makes it seem like that the trains are running much better.  The first video obviously was the loco straining hard but the last ones after I let the engine run upside down after injecting a good high quality lube into it for a while appear to run much smoother.   

When I setup my test track again, i will check the voltage readings at the far end of the loop of track .

@bobotech posted:

Dang.  I can't figure it out.  My horn looks spotless.   I actually gently followed the instructions.   I took the top part off the main frame.  Spotless, hardly a spec of rust anywhere.  If you look at that thumbnail above, you see that metal leaf that is dark brown with surface rust?  Mine is still the original shiny gunmetal color.   

I gently cleaned everything and put it back together, and the horn doesn't react at all.   I tried even touching a 1.5v battery to the lead and ground and nothing.   

Dang.

Reading thru and saw this and thought I'd offer a tip I learned to resuscitate an old horn...unsolder the horn wire from the relay,  get a 9v battery and touch the horn wire to the + and the neg battery terminal to the horn housing for just an instant.  This can ofttimes jolt a horn back to life.