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FWIW...I just want all u 2 railers to know...  The big manufacturers that have been selling 2 rail, are telling me that their demand for 2 rail is down.  I am still pushing to keep up the availability of new 2 rail.    Just so you all know....

My personal feeling is that most of the new people coming into the hobby (most of whom are in their 50's or so) , are going with 3 rail, as its what they see available the most, and many ppl are introduced to the hobby thru clubs, most of which are 3 rail.   If you want to spread the word about 2 rail....my thoughts are that it might be a good idea for 2 rail modular club layouts to set up at some of the big traditionally 3 rail shows.  I think the shows pay for layouts to show up (idk for sure)   I think a lot of ppl dont know that 2 rail exists.  Just my .02

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FWIW...I just want all u 2 railers to know...  The big manufacturers that have been selling 2 rail, are telling me that their demand for 2 rail is down.

Maybe selling the same tired stuff to what is a small community (relatively) doesn't work like it does in HO? Also, the 2 rail community is not driven to buy, buy, buy anything and everything that does get produced.  I for one have not seen anything new produced in the last decade that I found compelled to buy.

I think a lot of ppl dont know that 2 rail exists.

Possibly true.  Maybe the "big manufacturers" could try advertising.

Ive seen plenty of cool stuff in 2 rail come out in the last decade. 

PRR GRa gondolas,  the H30 covered hoppers.  MILW ribbed side box cars, and of the Atlas USRA hopper cars, 8000 gallon tank cars, or AC-2 covered hoppers.    All the golden gate passenger cars...and our special run of the 64' woodside coaches.    Engines....MTH did big boys in 2 rail 6 months ago, but now they are all gone.   2 rail diesels...Ive been pushing for this..and hopefully some day it will happen.  2 rail road diesels..there are plenty available.

I'm getting MTH steel drop bottom gondolas done in 2 rail (as well as 3 rail) . They are really nice highly detailed cars.    The remarks I get from 2 railers when they see some of the nice MTH stuff is...."i had no idea this stuff was that nice".

Im also going to have a program introduced on the website maybe in a month....where if u buy an MTH freight car, 2 rail trucks for it will be available for $19.95 .  I know its not 5.00 bucks, but best I can do right now.  Part of the probem with the MTH cars is that the bolster screws go in from the top down, and u have to take the car apart to change the trucks, and I dont have time for that.  If it was an easy truck change, I could do them and charge less..

What would u want that has enough mass appeal to make the project economically viable?  Id say of course diesel switchers (like an alco S-2) and consolidations, but what else.  

FWIW... The last time Atlas offered the SW series switchers, they cancelled the run due to low order numbers.   You cant expect the manufacturers and dealers to take all the risk, and then have the hobbyists sit back and decide.  "well maybe I'll get it after I see it. "    The marketplace has spoken...and dealers are saying "im not stocking any 2 rail". Im only ordering what customers order.  And the numbers  are coming up short for production.

I wish I had the answer..other than more publicity for 2 rail

my .02 again

MTH and Lionel have been doing spectacular work.  Lionel has the definitive Alco PA, and some of their die cast steam models are as detailed as the brass imports of the last century.

Problems I see - a lot of it is plastic, and some 2-railers don't really care for plastic.  And you are competing with the used market, which, with eBay, now offers just about anything one could want.

I do like the MTH drop-bottom gons, and have two of them.  But again, plastic - not my thing. If they did the SP G-50-9, even in plastic, I would have to have five.

IMHO...the plastic with metal and plastic detail  is as nice as anything ive every seen.  The 2 best in my opinion being the 8000 gallon tank car, and the USRA 2 bay hopper car.   The AC-2 ACF covered hopper car is really nice too.  

What is an SP G-50-9 anyway?  The wood beet gonds with the high sides?  The gonds have been made in SP, but not with the high sides.  Some ppl have fabricated their own high sides for them

I guess I'm lucky, pretty much every thing I want I have.  There are a few things I would purchase but they are all contemporary and the amount of good contemporary stuff on the market is a niche within a niche.  Atlas, Lionel and even MTH have made some very nice contemporary things but nothing new in the past several years.  My WAG is that few people considering switching to 2-rail 1/48 from HO don't see much they'd be interested in.   The last time I asked a hobby dealer he said most of the HO and N stuff he sold ws 1980's and newer.  He didn't even carry any steam any longer.

Last edited by rdunniii

I have at least a few of all the cars mentioned above - - except the PRR GRa gondola.   As a PRR modeler, I would buy at least a few.    If you are referring to the Weaver woodside gon - IT WAS NOT A PRR GRa however they painted it.    Among the errors, the major one was that it is 2 scale feet TOO SHORT - which is noticable.    Also Weaver did that car with cast on detail, which compared to the more detailed stuff I have been migrating to, it does not stand up well.     I do have 6 of the H30 covered hoppers and Weaver did a great job on them.   I have a pair of the Milw cars too, but how many rib sides can a non milwaukee layout have?     I also have all the Atlas cars mentioned.

As for the SW from Atlas - it is a very nice loco, I have two. 

I wonder as I read this and comment if the market is a bit saturated - especially with generic stuff.    Modelers are getting more knowledgeable and want models that represent specific prototypes in my opinion.

The G-50-9 is kind of arcane, and I seriously do not expect a reasonably priced model of it within my lifetime.  It was done by a high end brass importer about 20 years ago, and sold for over $300 each.  It is a drop-bottom car used primarily by the Harriman roads, and initially made by the Enterprise Car Co.  It differs from the MTH steel side mostly by having sides that slope inward well above the ratchets for the doors.  Ulrich made them in HO out of die cast - not 100% accurate, but still under four bucks, so I kept a pair:

Ulrich G-50-9

Reference: Southern Pacific Freight Cars Vol 1, Anthony W Thompson, pp 94-108.

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You know what? I have photos of the MTH cars - herewith:

Drop bottomDrop Bottom 10

Well, the top photo has a brass import (USH) on the left.  The lower photo shows an unmodified MTH on the left, and a car with proper frame extensions and ancient sand cast trucks on the right.  Both are handsome models, and if you like plastic cars these have to be among the best.  In fact, MTH has done definitive work in both freight cars and wood side passenger cars, all in plastic, which is probably the best medium for faithfully reproducing detail.  Me?  I am sticking with sand cast bronze.  Or built-up brass.

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I think you're partially right. I was in this hobby about 4 years before I heard of 2 rail. It doesn't get much exposure but I think the decline is due to many factors and not just one thing. Some of them are: the myths about 2 rail keeps guys away, older guys aging out of the hobby and/or reaching a point where they have all they need, and 2 rail guys are more likely to stick to the roads they collect or model whereas 3 rail guys are more likely to buy stuff that strikes their fancy.

I do not have the budget for a fleet of brass rolling stock. I wish I did the stuff is gorgeous so plastic is good enough for me. Last year I bought 3 MTH plastic passenger cars from you (Beth) in 2 rail and this year I have a MTH scale wheel locomotive on order with another dealer. At this point I have almost everything I need. I would someday to purchase a Niagara or a Ten Wheeler in 2 rail. I know USH did a Niagara that is nice but I am in no rush.  I would be very tempted by RailKing SW if it had fixed pilots, Kadees and was 2 rail but most 2 railers wouldn't want it due to the China drive.

All opinion.

Ill try to be brief.  I like 2 rail, but im not picky, and when it comes to models, close is good enough for me.   If you like things exact, then u have to go to the short run companies and pay the price.  I realize that may be what many of u want.   Unfortunately, thats not the world of larger run, much less expensive production.   I worked with Weaver on the GRa gondola, and the 1st run was in the correct circle keystone scheme.   I also did a special run of them in Raritan River (they bought some from the PRR, and i was going to do NYO&W if weaver didnt close.

No, its not exact, and it may be 2' short, but personally, i find it a nice looking wood side gondola.  Weaver already had a 40' flat car, and I suggested to Joe about making wood sides that could attach thru the side pockets. The ends were slotted into the sides, and u could remove one or both ends if u wanted to for MW use or whatever.  The fact is, it was that car, or nothing, and i think its a nice car. Im not that picky, and i think it passes the "looks good" test.

There is so much out there that is so far off, im happy with anything thats close and  looks good.   I guess i'll find out if anyone buys the drop bottom gondolas im having done in 2 rail..  Atlas cars in 2 rail still seem to be selling OK.  2 rail comes and goes.  Few orders in 2 rail for a while, and then a whole bunch of orders....

****,

i just think, we are at the point in 0 scale ( in Europe/Germany also), were a manufacturer have to decide

1. develope Transition era stuff (in Germany Epoche 3), to make money with the customers they have the money and the age...( guess- Lenz develope each year 2 big steamer each 2000 bucks, other manufactureres goes into 0 with the same price range with this era) and the things will be sold out. They know, how to make money with their customers, but can`t generate new. This will work for a few years, then there are no customers, who are interested in this stuff. But with this stuff, no new customers ( age 45+) can be excited.

2. with a painting version of an Atlas beer ( or others) car nobody wants to order, when you own 300 or moore. Or sw 900?, they are around, easy to get. Manufacturers can use there patterns, developed several years ago and make reprints--but how long will this work-are were no at the point, were this business model won`t work?

Look into H0, plastic engines with etched/brass parts flooding the market, but most modern stuff ( perhaps a few F`s) . And-they are almost sold out. Even the roling stock. New manufacturers (like scaletrains or rapido) came around with this stuff. No market for modern stuff ? ehh In Germany the same--modern european stuff is sold out. The customers, youngsters an 45+, the grew up with this stuff. Look around, small companies with GP9 rebuilts or other older stuff doing daily work with modern cars..

In 0 scale, try to get a MTH high cube boxcar or other modern stuff. Kits from small manufacturers, who make modern stuff.sold out...

I think, the problems is to generate a market. Perhaps it`s to late now..and they are beating a dead horse. The risk, to use a lot of money to develope some engines are very high.  And even the owners are older guys, and perhaps this way will work to their retirements. And after that--so what, see, whats happen to  MTH-from his point of view-so what..

just my thougths



kindest regards from Germany



Elmar

MTH has done some very nice accurate models.    The PRR R50B is as good or better than any brass one I have seen.    I have about 7 of them all converted to 2 rail, and lowered to proper height.    The Fishbelly hopper is also a very nice car and appears accurate.    Since it is not Pennsy, I did study it in detail.   I do have about 10 of these.  

I have nothing against plastic.    I think you can get better detail   An example is the PRR H21 done by Atlas.    It has the rivet and structure detail on both the outside and inside of the body.   The brass ones I  have seen have very accurate, perhaps better detail on the outside, but the inside of the body when it is empty is devoid of detail, it is the reverse of the rivets and stuff from the outside.

On the other hand, Plastic generally requires larger runs of the same piece to cover the costs of tooling and design to be able to sell at a target price.    Brass lends itself to unique models and detailing because of the shorter runs.    However the shorter runs also mean significantly higher costs and prices.

Well in 2 weeks the 2 rail Stout Auctions is ending. I see a LOT of modern stuff in there. Perhapse a guage as to what items command more, the 1940's- 50's stuff like the Ferdinand Magellon or the 1980's stuff including Overland Amtrak superliners and F40ph's.

Regardless 2 rail or 3 rail, there is a darth of 1970's-1990's loco's [esp non EMD types] and vehicles - M.O.W. service vehicles, Tractor Trailers & 4 door cars.

FWIW...I just want all u 2 railers to know...  The big manufacturers that have been selling 2 rail, are telling me that their demand for 2 rail is down.  I am still pushing to keep up the availability of new 2 rail.    Just so you all know....

My personal feeling is that most of the new people coming into the hobby (most of whom are in their 50's or so) , are going with 3 rail, as its what they see available the most, and many ppl are introduced to the hobby thru clubs, most of which are 3 rail.   If you want to spread the word about 2 rail....my thoughts are that it might be a good idea for 2 rail modular club layouts to set up at some of the big traditionally 3 rail shows.  I think the shows pay for layouts to show up (idk for sure)   I think a lot of ppl dont know that 2 rail exists.  Just my .02

I agree with Beth.  There are no O Scale 2 Rail (OS2R) modular layouts at most general interest train shows such as the NMRA national train shows.  All the other scales and gauges are well represented by modular layouts including Lego, 3-rail O, and On30.

Yes, there are OS2R only shows that are well attended by people already in the segment but this is not an indication of where this hobby segment is going.  I am going to O Scale National that is being held in Denver in June.  I expect that the convention will be well attended but that the majority of the attendees will be in my age group - 60+.  I am in my mid 70s.  

OS2R is invisible to most people who are in the smaller scales and who are entering the hobby.  There is an ongoing effort to increase the visibility and popularity of OS2R.  This effort includes developing an OS2R Freemo modular layout standard and making the scale more visible on the web.  You can reach the O Scale Central Website here:  https://oscalecentral.com

The O Scale Central Website is the place to learn about everything that is happening in OS2R.

I believe, however, that until good quality OS2R modular layouts become regular attendees at general interest train shows, that the hobby segment will continue to remain mostly unknown to most people who are new to the model railroad hobby.  NH Joe

Demand is down?  Lets look at this. You've got one company (atlas) who delivers things 7 years after they announce it, if they didnt outright cancel it. Sure they make some really nice stuff if they eventually deliver it, but why tie up the funds on things when theres no chance it'll be delivered in a timely manner. Orders are low? Maybe prove you can deliver and more orders will come. Forgive us for not bothering to order stuff and wait a lifetime to get it, but clearly the demand is there for what has been made, as I've watched time and time again 2 rail diesels go on that auction site in excess of $400 or $500, and some of them were $250 Trainman models!

The other guy (MTH), is on the way out the door, and sold a bunch of stuff to the first guy.  Will Atlas make use of the new factory capacity and deliver? Time will tell. While they made some nice stuff, the electronics are a turnoff for 2 rail. In 3 rail, DCS is no big deal, as the sound files are better than lionel's tired and worn out repeats, but compared to something like ESU's files... its basic at best. I bet they sell more "Scale wheel" diesels to 3 railers who want fixed pilots than 2 railers who run them on 2 rails. When they ran out of the sporatically stocked conversion wheelsets, i'm sure demand dropped off (even though they work just fine on 3R track with scale wheels).   I started off doing that, now that i have a 2R layout too, I just pulled the rollers off and flipped the switch.

I'm in agreement with the people above... it seems like modern stuff disappears, yet they havent rolled more stuff out. I would think in modern times with stuff like additive manufacturing, the setup costs to make something new would be less. There are plenty of things in Atlas' HO catalog that they obviously have CAD files for and could just add 181% to them...

Or just re-engineer and reuse existing tools! I've taken apart enough Atlas locos to know they're in a bunch of pieces... offer the GP9 as a chop nose (yeah, sure you can just build one), turn an F7 frame into a CF7, make the tweaks to the long end of a U23b to get a B23-7 out of it.... Anything new is going to cause a stir these days, assuming they can deliver it.

Let me just say.....I didnt start this topic in search of a ***** session.    Im trying to get the major manufacturers to keep making 2 rail.  Its an uphill fight, as they are telling me qty's being ordered are light.  I'm telling them I'll help increase the orders, just to get more things made in 2 rail.

If the response from the 2 railers is  " i dont care if any more 2 rail is made or not, ,  if its not one of the few very particular things i want",  well then so be it.   2 rail O gauge will descend into the realm of aftermarket sales, and expensive short run manufacturers, as it was pre-1990.

For those who would like to see a future for ready-to-run 2 rail O gauge products..., I just want everyone to know that Im trying, and spreading  the word will help.

Last edited by Beth Marshall-The Public Delivery Track

By all means... continue to push for it to be made. I'd love to buy something new. I dont necessarily "have enough stuff" nor am I "old"... but asking for it and taking orders is one thing, getting it delivered is a whole different ballgame, and its hard to create orders when there's no definite timeframe for making it. That has to be frustrating for you too.

Last edited by Boilermaker1

I'm telling them I'll help increase the orders, just to get more things made in 2 rail.

Maybe finding out what folks really want and will pay for could help.  If they keep making stuff that very few really want and/or are willing to pay for, then it's all downhill.

If the response from the 2 railers is  "im old and i dont care if any more 2 rail is made or not, ,  if its not one of the few very particular things i want, well then so be it.   2 rail O gauge will descend into the realm of aftermarket sales, and expensive short run manufacturers, as it was pre-1990.

Age is not relevant (and a wee bit insulting to even put into play), and more would be good if it's stuff that people want and not recycled with different lettering failed stuff from the past, but that specific want/need is a critical component to very seriously take into account. There's zero use for a late 20th century car on a 1920s era layout,   Decent moderate switchers of several varieties with good horizontal drives should be fairly broad in interest....maybe.

For those who would like to see a future for ready-to-run 2 rail O gauge products..., I just want everyone to know that Im trying, and spreading  the word will help.

Keep trying and maybe educating the companies since selling O scale is wee bit different than selling HO to the masses.

One of the reasons Im writing here is to find what ppl want.   Unfortunately, there no real consensus.   Some ppl are saying they want new tooling for cars that have never been made before. 

Totally new tooling, from the ground up, just isnt in the cards right now, with the companies i deal with.    Partial changes, like making a 40' slide/plug door box car, might be doable.  Also re-running of some things that havent been done in 10 or more years.   The Atlas USRA 2 bay panel side hoppers are super nice.   There are a limited number of roads that had them, tho.

I would imagine a large part of the reason is actually getting things made and available.  Atlas is the worst offender.  There is still demand for their 5161 hoppers, their 53' well cars and their 53' containers .  Not only has Atlas not made them in several years with no delivery in sight but there are Ebay sellers that want as much as double retail for the few that remain.  If an early MTH car from Atlas was their 50' hi cube boxcar might be interested.  Not holding my breath.  I'm not expecting to actually see any MTH stuff from Atlas for at least 2 years.  HO and N are their priority and that is good but there ability to scale up overall production doesn't exist.  Will it with MTH's factory?  We shall see.  I bet they are moving their HO and N tooling over first.   Reminds me of Ron Sebastien and Des Plaines who bought up all kinds of really nice O scale tooling and then did nothing with it and in some cases didn't even know here he put it.

Whatever happened to the Bowser 53' trailers/roadrailers that Weaver bought, did nothing with, went out of business and the tooling went... somewhere that has never been seen again.  Lionel has made some awesome freight cars, but 3-rail only and conversions are annoying because of the way they mount things.  3rdrail has said no more freight cars,  too many people have said they want unusual or weird type X cars and then no one buys them.  I told him to make cars that anyone can go down to the tracks and see many of them go by and he just says no more.

Last edited by rdunniii

The manufacturers might be bringing this on themselves.  One has been out of stock for some time of 2 Rail locomotive wheels, one is being aquired, but has been historically stubborn about re-running 2 Rail conversion pieces and parts.   And one has had back orders for their 2-Rail flex track for some time.  Looks to me like there is a supply problem to keep railroads from expanding, building, and growing.  If I have to wait until a locomotive is released in the future to get the benefit of parts such as 2 Rail wheels that turns me away.   I see a supply problem with future purchases.  I find it incredibly interesting considering all of the additional modeling time with the COVID scenario the last year.  Where is their marketing and listening ability?  I don't recall seeing them at the O Scale Meet last year prior to the pandemic. 

RTR locomotives and cars seem to take much longer to get stateside than normal and that's probably part of it too.  It may behoove them to come out in the open and ask how they can improve and what products we would like to see.  They are bringing it on themselves when they gamble with even the simplest things such as new roadnames on existing models.  I'm only speaking for me, but sometimes I would buy a lot more over time, if they weren't produced in a ton of roadnames at once in a limited production, but filtered in batches.  This would likely conflict factory production schedules.

The absolutely critical thing is going to be model detail and paint accuracies.   If the details are wrong such as a hood door that shouldn't be there, a missing stanchion, fans not centered, inaccurate paint and the price point is $200 more than a competitor sales are not going to repeat as the customer begins to think prototype accuracy doesn't matter. 

Also, I know there are a lot of factors, but maybe figuring out a way to lower prices so more O Scale 2-Rail converts can cross over.

Beth's website if fairly easy to navigate and see what's in stock.  Other sellers however are not, just a written description of the item.  Better, faster, easier to use internet platforms could assist with sales volumes as well.

There are also other outside factors that could be limiting sales, such as the ridiculous price of plywood - $56 at Home Depot on Friday night when I checked... 

These are not at all meant to be gripes or stubborness, but discussion of ways to new opportunities. 

I like modern 2 rail RTR stuff. Atlas mainly for cars and MTH for engines. I am not in the majority here.

I have bought from most every company's offerings, but mainly in modern. I have boxes of unused stuff just laying around. I can't fit it all on the layout.

I just plainly got tired of swapping out trucks and converting stuff.

I dabble in the steam era and I don't want or need anything more there.

I would have ordered the MTH BNSF 2 rail ES44 from you. I ordered a UP SD70ACe in G scale instead. After I did, I found the BNSF version that I originally wanted. I couldn't justify both. I did buy the MTH 2 rail Bigboy.

I just can't justify spending so much every couple of months  in toy trains. I am not rich. I don't know how some brass guys buy so much. Maybe they don't have the big quantities yet? Plastic is fine for me. I am like you Beth in that close is good enough for my old eyes.



.....There is so much out there that is so far off, im happy with anything thats close and  looks good.

FWIW... The last time Atlas offered the SW series switchers, they cancelled the run due to low order numbers.

And, wasn't the run before that also cancelled? They lost their factory, or something? Maybe I'm wrong. Regardless, I don't understand the lack of interest in these switchers. Haven't been available for some time, fantastic running O-scale model, and prototypically very popular. I know I'm jonesing to preorder two ... preferably undecorated.

I think a lot of ppl dont know that 2 rail exists.

Certainly many HOers that do admire O scale ... are not aware. Reading their message boards, many only know of their grandfather's semi-scale trains around the Christmas tree on 3-rail tubular track. Not very knowledgeable of how far O scale has come. And completely unaware of 2-rail (so many of them deplore, mock the third rail) ... with it's DCC components.

I always promote 2-rail O with them. I've made a short, poor-quality video of my Atlas MP15 endcab switchers ... a 2-rail O and a HO. They're always super impressed with the O scale version. I'm trying.

It would be a real shame if these 2-rail SWs just fade away.

Last edited by CNJ Jim

Let me just say.....I didnt start this topic in search of a ***** session.    Im trying to get the major manufacturers to keep making 2 rail.  Its an uphill fight, as they are telling me qty's being ordered are light.  I'm telling them I'll help increase the orders, just to get more things made in 2 rail.

If the response from the 2 railers is  " i dont care if any more 2 rail is made or not, ,  if its not one of the few very particular things i want",  well then so be it.   2 rail O gauge will descend into the realm of aftermarket sales, and expensive short run manufacturers, as it was pre-1990.

For those who would like to see a future for ready-to-run 2 rail O gauge products..., I just want everyone to know that Im trying, and spreading  the word will help.

I don't consider myself old but I certainly am not young. I do very much care if 2 rail is made or not. I cannot buy a lot of new items just for the sake of supporting the hobby. If I was rich maybe I would but I am not. I spend on what I can afford that is within my budget. I do appreciate your efforts and what you're doing for 2 rail. I am really going to miss being able to buy a scale wheeled steam locomotive. Even if MTH sticks around they could always drop the scale wheeled versions like they did in many of their latest special runs. This is why I ordered the Reading T1. It could be my last steam locomotive from MTH.

Maybe you are right and if more people saw how good trains look that are the same size as scale Lionel trains but have smaller flanges and couplers and ride on track with more scale sized rail that doesn't have the center rail maybe just maybe 2 rail would grow.

You had to know that by starting this topic it would start a good conversation.

Beth, thanks for what you are trying to do.  I like the MTH 2 rail steam and diesel locomotives and I have bought several during the past year.  I don't want to convert to DCC since that is an unnecessary expense when I already have DCS and Legacy and neither is compatible with DCC (unless running Proto 3  locomotives in DCC mode).  I think MTH got it right when they introduced the 3-2 convertible trucks.  For diesel locomotives, there are not that many different parts (pilots, wheelsets, handrails, couplers) that are required to manufacture 2 and 3 rail versions.  For steam, many of the latest MTH premier locomotives are electrically equipped to run either 2 or 3 rail, so all that is generally is required is to manufacture versions with scale wheelsets and (potentially as a bonus) to provide a shorter drawbar.

For me, these locomotives are adequate.  It would be nice to have two sets of screw holes in the 3-2 trucks to move the truck side frames inwards for 2 rail operation and a variety of other improvements, but it's better than having to wait decades for a specialty manufacturer to consider producing something I am looking for now.  Also, offering undecorated versions would allow modelers to customize for the more obscure railroads or for railroads that are not commonly represented, such as Illinois Central.

Just a quick response.  I am in an O scale club that does have younger members (<60).  The issue is two fold IMHO.   MTH has not a lot of respect among the 2 railers as some of their products are quite nice and some aren't that good as far as scale accuracy.  With all its issues Atlas for value and Sunset/3rd rail are far more popular among the membership.  Last I heard was that nearly half of Atlas' sales were in 2 rail.

I think I'm the only one in the club who has purchased MTH engines, which in the case oft he GP7/9 is too high off the trucks and has handrails painted wrong and starting in the wrong locations - I could go on but I have the skill so correct and build a scale pilot.  On the other hand the 2 rail MTH Trainmaster was excellent as was the 3 rail only Alco S2 (which I had to convert with MTH scale wheel sets which are set up wrong for the S2 and must be modified to fit.)  The other issue is that the vast majority of 2 railers are DCC and are never going to be interested in DCS.  The early MTH PS3 modules didn't work well with DCC but they have improved though they are still no where near Soundtraxx or ESU.  She time ago an MTH sales person actually came to club to demonstrate an early version of PS3 on the club's HO layout, it was a disaster.  I know it is now improved.

Atlas cancelled some O Scale locomotives because of problems with their vendor(s).  Their current vendor is supposed to expand and rectify the problem in the near future - we shall see.  The instability of the US - China relationship of recent years is not helping.

BTW, Beth I'll go for an Atlas SW in either B&M or SP if you can get Atlas to make them (2 rail with DCC).

J2M

What fun!  When you post on a forum, expect discussion to ensue - unless your topic is simply uninteresting and irrelevant.

I am now officially ancient.  I remember when all O Scale had was All Nation and Walthers.  Sure, older Lobaugh and Scale Craft was available, but Max Gray didn't hit the market until I was in high school.  I used to dream about a string of Budd cars.

Almost anything I can imagine is now available in O Scale - for a price.  That, plus if I want something obscure, I know how to make it.  Life is good, if somewhat short.

If manufacturers would commit to making locomotives that are 2 and 3 rail compatible AND include the parts to fix the pilots, I think everyone would have a better time.  

MTH sort of did this with DC compatibility, DCC included and the ability to buy 2-rail wheel sets to convert the trucks.  But, I never saw a way to buy the fixed pilots or handrails.  

And how about if they just threw a set of two rail trucks in with their rolling stock? I know they are usually like $25-30 but what would it add to the cost if they were just factored in and included?  

Maybe what I’m suggesting is too wasteful?

I come at this as a 3-railer who used to be in HO.  I love the realism of 2-rail, and I would consider replacing trucks and couplers on rolling stock, and even pulling up the center rail or re-laying track (eventually).  However, I have a lot of money invested in 3-rail motive power, only probably 5-10% of which is convertible.

I don’t know, it’s a tough problem in O gauge... two different track systems, electrical differences, command control differences. Not sure how to solve or streamline it.

I'm not looking for any new models in 2-rail although it would be nice. But, when Atlas goes over 10 years since their last run of GP9's, GP35's, Dash 8-40B's, MP15DC's, SD40's, etc. then that's a problem. I'm pretty sure a run of Alco C424's would sell out quickly in 2-rail and 3.

Just reissue past models in motive power and rolling stock. If that's too much to ask then maybe Atlas should focus their efforts on accessories like track and buildings. Atlas acquired tooling from Weaver for the VO1000 3 years ago and they've done nothing with it so you'll have to forgive me for being skeptical about their capacity to produce MTH Premier trains not to mention their own (GP7's...7 years and counting).

@rplst8 posted:

If manufacturers would commit to making locomotives that are 2 and 3 rail compatible AND include the parts to fix the pilots, I think everyone would have a better time.  

MTH sort of did this with DC compatibility, DCC included and the ability to buy 2-rail wheel sets to convert the trucks.  But, I never saw a way to buy the fixed pilots or handrails.  

And how about if they just threw a set of two rail trucks in with their rolling stock? I know they are usually like $25-30 but what would it add to the cost if they were just factored in and included?  

Maybe what I’m suggesting is too wasteful?

I come at this as a 3-railer who used to be in HO.  I love the realism of 2-rail, and I would consider replacing trucks and couplers on rolling stock, and even pulling up the center rail or re-laying track (eventually).  However, I have a lot of money invested in 3-rail motive power, only probably 5-10% of which is convertible.

I don’t know, it’s a tough problem in O gauge... two different track systems, electrical differences, command control differences. Not sure how to solve or streamline it.

Atlas sold F units with a fixed pilot in the box. Thats the only time Ive seen it (probably because it did not require different handrails).

There was a time where you could buy a 3 rail atlas locomotive, make a call to Bill Seratelli and he'd sell you the parts to fix the pilots. Its been so long since they've made these engines, the parts aren't available anymore, so now if you want to do it, you need to come up with a 2 rail locomotive and a 3 rail donor locomotive for the trucks (and sometimes the electronics) and figure out how to combine them (which isnt always 100% straight forward). I have done this. It is not the cheapest way to get an engine the way you want it, but if you see a 3 rail basket case on ebay, sometimes its worth it for the parts pile, but the 2R ones have gotten so insanely expensive, its not going to be an easy value proposition.

Atlas trucks are 3-2 compatible also (they did this before MTH did, all the way back to the B40-8, 2001?). Swap the wheel sets and exchange the pickup wipers and insulators for the rollers and its associated insulator bucket. If your track is good enough, then all you need to do is put on rollers, the 2 rail wheels run fine.

Some of the MTH pilots found their way into the parts catalog and you could buy them, but not all of them and they were not plentiful. I never saw handrails available. They were probably considered part of the shell, and not a separate item.

@rplst8 posted:

I come at this as a 3-railer who used to be in HO.  I love the realism of 2-rail, and I would consider replacing trucks and couplers on rolling stock, and even pulling up the center rail or re-laying track (eventually).  However, I have a lot of money invested in 3-rail motive power, only probably 5-10% of which is convertible.



@rplst8 Just curious but when you went from HO to O did you consciously choose 3 rail or did you not know about 2 rail back then?

@catnap posted:

I'm not looking for any new models in 2-rail although it would be nice. But, when Atlas goes over 10 years since their last run of GP9's, GP35's, Dash 8-40B's, MP15DC's, SD40's, etc. then that's a problem. I'm pretty sure a run of Alco C424's would sell out quickly in 2-rail and 3.

Just reissue past models in motive power and rolling stock. If that's too much to ask then maybe Atlas should focus their efforts on accessories like track and buildings. Atlas acquired tooling from Weaver for the VO1000 3 years ago and they've done nothing with it so you'll have to forgive me for being skeptical about their capacity to produce MTH Premier trains not to mention their own (GP7's...7 years and counting).

You could not be more correct!! Atlas C424, C anything would sell. I know a bunch of us want the Lehigh Valley Snowbirds, and also RS-1's. I would love a late Susquehanna RS-1 Silver.

Thought...

If "Dead-Rail" (Battery power) becomes more accepted in O scale, there will be an O2R resurgence, eroding the O3R market particularly among younger generations. 

However,....

If "Dead-Rail" should gain an accepted foothold in the HO portion of the hobby before O-philes even wake up, well,...sayonara, O!  Your remaining manufacturing/investing in O scale will probably run...not walk...away.

Just MHO, of course. 

Too negative?

We'll see.

KD

Beth,

I appreciate that you are backing 2 rail items. Unfortunately, items I currently need for the N&W are pretty specific to the N&W and will likely have to be scatchbuilt or bashed. I've happily picked up some other interesting 3/2 items along the way such as the Weaver Milwaukee rib sides and B&O wagontops, Atlas C&O cement hopper, Pennsylvania X29 and some run of the mill boxcars and tank cars. I have a fair amount of brass cars that I know are pretty accurate. I'll have room on the layout for 30-40 more pieces of rolling stock.

The problem for me is that the big importers slap any road on any item and then I'll have to figure out which is actually accurate at all, and then accurate for the specific year I'm representing. I know what has been produced that is accurate for the N&W but for all of the other railroads, not so sure. I guess at some point I'll get around to approaching other modelers of other roads about what models from MTH, Atlas, and Lionel were the ultimate in their categories in detail and paint scheme.

@Hudson J1e posted:

@rplst8 Just curious but when you went from HO to O did you consciously choose 3 rail or did you not know about 2 rail back then?

I knew about 2-rail - but at the time (about 2001) MTH wasn't doing their Proto 3-2 trucks yet and other 2-rail offerings were either scarce or $$$$.  It seemed to be an extremely niche market - maybe more so than S scale, which I strongly considered since I have a soft spot for Gilbert Flyer stuff.  I was earlier in my career at that point so 2-rail O was a non-starter price wise.  The cost for 3-rail stuff has been creeping up - obviously still not as high as 2-rail - but "accurate" 3-rail is not cheap either.  Point is - I could probably now swing it money wise, but I'm not ditching my existing collection of scale and "mostly" accurate 3-rail stuff.  I'm not a rivet counter per se, but I avoid things that are just obviously wrong - like pretty much all of the SD40-2s out there.  One of my favorite diesels, so I'm very excited about the 3rd Rail SD40-2 project.  I did get suckered into the MTH PRR J1a with it's rear drivers shadowed by the firebox - but the price was too good to pass up.

@Mike CT posted:

Mentioned briefly.  MTH at one time did 3-2 models, as long as 2 rail modelers would except the larger flanges.  At the time I thought this offering to be a plus for two rail numbers that could be simply added to the 3 rail orders.  The Russian Decapod was may be the most noted offering 3-2.

Russian Decapod

Understood, but AFIAK MTH never offered the wheel sets to convert the steam 3-2 models - only diesels - and only a subset of the catalog.  E8s, PAs, and others never got the Proto 3-2 trucks - and still had inner blind drivers to boot.  I sold my PA set after I realized they were like that.  Unfortunately they had advertised 3-2 trucks but it was a mistake.

I have purchased many 3 rail freight cars and converted them to 2 rail over the years. the manufacturers and dealers have no idea how many 2 railers have done these conversions of 3 rail models. so to them, all they know is that they sold another 3 rail model. that also means that the original purchase of the 3 rail model is a vote for more 3 rail models

@dkdkrd posted:

If "Dead-Rail" (Battery power) becomes more accepted in O scale, there will be an O2R resurgence, eroding the O3R market particularly among younger generations.

However,....

If "Dead-Rail" should gain an accepted foothold in the HO portion of the hobby before O-philes even wake up, well,...sayonara, O!  Your remaining manufacturing/investing in O scale will probably run...not walk...away.



Maybe I'm just out of the loop, but I'm not sure what dead rail has to do with it, could you elaborate?

@rplst8 posted:

I knew about 2-rail - but at the time (about 2001) MTH wasn't doing their Proto 3-2 trucks yet and other 2-rail offerings were either scarce or $$$$.  It seemed to be an extremely niche market - maybe more so than S scale, which I strongly considered since I have a soft spot for Gilbert Flyer stuff.  I was earlier in my career at that point so 2-rail O was a non-starter price wise.  The cost for 3-rail stuff has been creeping up - obviously still not as high as 2-rail - but "accurate" 3-rail is not cheap either.  Point is - I could probably now swing it money wise, but I'm not ditching my existing collection of scale and "mostly" accurate 3-rail stuff.  I'm not a rivet counter per se, but I avoid things that are just obviously wrong - like pretty much all of the SD40-2s out there.  One of my favorite diesels, so I'm very excited about the 3rd Rail SD40-2 project.  I did get suckered into the MTH PRR J1a with it's rear drivers shadowed by the firebox - but the price was too good to pass up.

I totally understand. I would never blame anyone who has a sizable investment in 3 rail for not converting to 2 rail. When I converted I did not have a lot of 3 rail. Most of it I sold and some got converted and I kept a few pieces.

I don't understand what Dead Rail has to do with 2 rail either. Obviously, it is out there for those who want it but to me it is just another option of controlling the trains. True if one installs Dead Rail components in their 3 rail O scale trains there is no need for the center rail.

If Dead Rail was available in HO off the shelf in ready to run products that alone would not make me want to switch to HO.

For years I have been reading on this forum that Dead Rail is the wave of the future and someday all model railroading will be Dead Rail and maybe the people who say this are correct but if so many people want it and it is so great than why have manufacturers yet to offer it in ready to run products? I don't have the answer to this question but I suspect it is a complicated answer. I have no interest in it but I know some guys on this forum love it and that's great. There is no doubting that Dead Rail has some really great advantages. OTOH it does have a few cons. I always say there is no right or wrong way to go about the hobby. All opinion.

My decision to forgo a layout entirely and just display my trains was guided by the lack of a decent dead rail system.  Sorry, just not into wiring anything.  I spent much of my career wiring data networks and it was one of the things I was happy to leave behind when I retired.  Battery powered locomotives and just a single 5VDC USB power line or maybe 12VDC and everything else is wireless with wifi or bluetooth would have been awesome.  Especially with modular layouts.  I agree that the lack of modular O Scale layouts at shows does diminish this corner of the hobby.  I watched for years expecting an O Scale freemo group to emerge but it never happened.

For me, the gigantic track used in three rail (and for two rail with the center rail simply removed) is the biggest drawback.  Two rail track simply looks better regardless of the control system used.  The catch is that you have to have large radius curves and much better trackwork in general.  I understand the appeal of three rail track and operation, but I think O scale will still need scale or semi-scale wheelsets to appeal to 2 rail modelers.

@bob2 posted:

I don't see it as a diversion.  The discussion is based on why folks don't buy more 2-rail, and "dead rail" or battery RC will make the center rail obsolete.  What could be a more natural progression in a thread such as this?

OK, well in that case I'll offer a few thoughts.

One of the challenges with 2-rail is reversing loops.  It wasn't as much of a problem in the days of running everything in blocks before command - but with command - which I VASTLY prefer - you need relays and sensors and all kinds of things to get the trains to run smoothly through a reversing loop.  Now 3-rail doesn't have that issue - and neither doe dead rail, and that is one thing that makes dead rail attractive.

The challenge with dead rail is recharging the batteries of course.  They have to be taken out of the engine or whatever and then charged on a pack.  I guess maybe some systems have an external charging port, but that route takes the engine out of service until it's charged.  This is a first world problem obviously - but there is one thing I don't like - and that's leaving 3rd party lithium batteries charging un-attended.  While I (mostly) trust laptop and cell phone manufacturers with their built in lithium batteries do to their proliferation - I've still seen lots of phones and laptops turned into charcoal bricks.

I think part of the reason we haven't seen any major manufacturers take the battery power route is due to the fire hazard and potential liability.

Now, how to solve it...  I thoroughly believe a combination system is the right path.  Battery powered locos combined with Bluetooth wireless (or other wireless coms) that use a STANDARD that everyone can agree on.  Then, charging-on-the-fly operation where you just provide dead simple AC or DC 15-20V on sections of the layout to allow the locomotives to charge as they pass over them.  This will allow them to enter and exit reversing loops without trouble, and continue running on the actual dead rail sections of the layout.  Engines could also be easily charged while they sit in a yard or engine facility.

Think of these "charging sections" as the track pans of yore where the locomotive scoops up what it can opportunistically.  Doing it this way would allow the whole layout to be powered down without worry of the lithium batteries overheating, giving everyone peace of mind and removing a lot of danger and liability issues.  The current supplied doesn't need to be anything special, no special wiring to combat signal issues, or voltage drop or anything else.  Just electrified straightaways or something.

One other thought on going 2-rail.  Why do most HO trains run on 18" radius, but 2-rail O scale trains need like O96 (48" radius) or O108 (54" radius)?  In O, the equivalent to 18" radius is 33". A few I've seen need 22", but even that is like 40" in O scale.  Therefore O72 to me seems like it should be doable for a minimum radius in 2-rail O.

[quote] It wasn't as much of a problem in the days of running everything in blocks before command - but with command - which I VASTLY prefer -[b] you need relays and sensors and all kinds of things[/b] to get the trains to run smoothly through a reversing loop. [/quote]

Really?? How do all the HO & N scale layouts that are 2-rail and have balloon tracks manage?? For DCC, simple 'reverse loop modules' are readily available. Honestly, judging by many of the comments I see from 3-rail guys, anyone would think these smaller scales, that work perfectly well in 2-rail, had never been invented!!??!!

I'll repeat what I would like to see in 2-rail - an affordable (i.e. not brass) EMD/Santa Fe CF7, and modern (post-1980) rolling stock - ARMN Reefers, etc. I have 2-railed some MTH Premier 50ft high-cubes with Atlas roller-bearing trucks and they look great.

Last edited by SundayShunter
@rplst8 posted:

One other thought on going 2-rail.  Why do most HO trains run on 18" radius, but 2-rail O scale trains need like O96 (48" radius) or O108 (54" radius)?  In O, the equivalent to 18" radius is 33". A few I've seen need 22", but even that is like 40" in O scale.  Therefore O72 to me seems like it should be doable for a minimum radius in 2-rail O.

Big steam locos might need wider curves, but even 6-axle diesels & longer modern freight cars can take 36" radius curves. Of course they can look a bit silly doing so, just like HO models on 18" radius, but "can't be done" is just a myth. Here's a YouTube link showing my Atlas SD40 on the 36" curves at one end of my layout. First car in the train is an MTH Centerbeam on Atlas roller-bearing trucks.

https://youtu.be/YdhXghlga04

I agree with SundayShunter.  Reversing loops are no problem at all with DCC as several manufacturers including Tony's train exchange have the simple automatic electronics board for seamless reversing.  So easy! and so much easier than years ago.  This has been available for at least 25 years without separate switches and sensors or other devices needed.

I also agree that some 3 rail sales clearly go to 2 railers who convert the items.  I recently purchased an MTH NH GP7 from Beth - converted to 2 rail wheels, constructed proper longer pilots and repainted handrail stantions correctly after creating new proper railings for the extended pilot stairs.  Part of the hobby used to be modeling what you wanted. 

I have to believe that Atlas will now get its act together over the next 2 years or so and will be offering both 2 and 3 rail as 2 rail is a large part of their business.  BTW, the reason that 2 rail track has been out of stock is that there has been a strong run on it during the pandemic.  2 rail may be growing - just look at Sunset/3rd rail's offerings - they are difficult for dealers to stock though.

J2M

Beth, I also live in Paso and have bought numerous things from you in the past. I would be interested in around 10 3 rail SP drop-bottom gondolas. As for two rail numbers being down I think cost might be a factor all O scale models are expensive compared to HO and N, I believe it has more to do with the amount of room person needs for the large radius curves. Especially for those of us out in the West.

...

Really?? How do all the HO & N scale layouts that are 2-rail and have balloon tracks manage?? Judging by many of the comments I see from 3-rail guys, anyone would think these smaller scales, that work perfectly well in 2-rail, had never been invented!!??!!

I'll repeat what I would like to see in 2-rail - an affordable (i.e. not brass) EMD/Santa Fe CF7, and modern (post-1980) rolling stock - ARMN Reefers, etc. I have 2-railed some MTH Premier 50ft high-cubes with Atlas R/B trucks and they look great.

Exactly, I wonder how the HO and N communities exist with dead rail without...

The ARMN reefers are one of the Cars I tried to talk Scott Mann into doing along with 53' spine cars.  And yes the MTH 50' high cubes are very nice.  I have several I'm lengthening into 60' cars.

Beth brought up modified tooling.  Scale Rails has videos on Youtube on how they use modifiable tooling in HO.  But I don't know what is possible.  If Atlas could modify their 53' articulated well car tooling into a standalone version I would get those.  If they could modify their tooling to make 40' versions both articulated and standalone I would get those.  A big one for me would be for Atlas to take their Husky Stack tooling and cut off the ends to make Maxi Stack Is.  How about Atlas modifying their MP15 tooling to make an SW1500.  Its what was asked for in the first place.  It seemed time and time again people would ask for something when Atlas had a forum, like, oh say, a GP40, and Atlas would respond with something strange and unusual that was not as widely wanted.  Again, not holding my breath.

Like I said, make things that people can go down to the tracks and watch (with their children and grandchildren) and more people will be interested.  With the death of so many hobby shops how many remaining are also Amazon shops.  That's where people find things today.  Or Ebay.  I found a company on Ebay in Hong Kong that makes great contemporary 20' and 40' 1/48 scale containers but only in 6 liveries.  Not the old ones Atlas copied from Pecos River Brass that haven't been seen in the real world in 20+ years.  In HO and N this company makes many more liveries available and also additional types and styles of containers.  I told them if they make more in 1/48 I'll be buying.

It sounds like the uniqueness and abilities of those who can pull off the dream of building a 2 rail layout are becoming all that much more extraordinary.

When you are spending thousands on other stuff, spending hours and hours building a layout to the nth degree otherwise, reverse loops are pretty trivial in cost and time to eliminate the center rail.

Big steam locos might need wider curves, but even 6-axle diesels & longer modern freight cars can take 36" radius curves. Of course they can look a bit silly doing so, just like HO models on 18" radius, but "can't be done" is just a myth. Here's a YouTube link showing my Atlas SD40 on the 36" curves at one end of my layout. First car in the train is an MTH Centerbeam on Atlas roller-bearing trucks.

https://youtu.be/YdhXghlga04

You're right.  Those MTH centerbeam cars are very nice if you correct the truck placement.  I think I have about a half dozen I'm doing the same thing to.  I think Atlas now has the tooling; what are they going to do with it?  

How about contemporary covered loads for them?

I dont remember ever shipping to a Paso address.  Did u just move here?

I'll have to see what I have lofe in SP drop bottoms, and I'll let u know.   I could probably deliver them rather than havoing to ship...

beth

First items I purchased from you or at the Great American train show in Anaheim, williams- cab forward and a few other items don't remember exactly what. And and items you had at Anita's (CCTs) Been in Paso since the 70s.

Last edited by shasta

I never thought about the fire hazard / liability of Lithium batteries in our trains - interesting point in regard to future widespread availability from a major manufacturer

I wonder if the radius issue in O scale is that not only are our trains just a little less than 2x as long as HO; but they are also a little less than 2x wide; so maybe saying 18" in HO = 36" in O Scale doesn't work (?)

Sunset / 3rd Rail sales are about 60% 2R / 40% 3R.  They produce the largest amount of O scale 2 rail locomotives and passenger cars at the moment with Atlas's recent challenges.  Since most Sunset sales are direct, these numbers aren't easily reflected in dealer sales.  Please don't take my Atlas comment as any negative comments about Atlas product.  They have always produced a quality product and I have lots of Atlas in my collection. 

During my 14 years on this forum, I have seen the number of 2R modelers grow and the average age drop.  Many of us who came to O from HO and N just didn't realize the possibilities in 2R O and started in scale 3R.  I believe there is a body of evidence to support this in that MTH started offering 3/2 locomotives with scale wheels and DCC compatible command and the availability of 2 rail conversion kits for Lionel scale offerings.

The number of 2 rail modelers will never rival the amount of 3 rail modelers and I still live in both worlds depending on the road name and where I will operate my trains; home vs. club layout.  Having stated that, I will say that my 2 rail purchases are much more directed. I am pretty close to the point where I have everything I am looking for in 2 rail O for a future layout.  The final rolling stock and locomotives that I am looking for either 1) have not been made in O scale and are not likely to be, or 2) I need to do more research on the prototype and era before purchasing.  I also find my self much more discriminating when it come to 2r vs. what I enjoy and operate in 3R.   

Of course balance all of this with the certain uncertainty of the times and it could all mean nothing in the end.

[quote] It wasn't as much of a problem in the days of running everything in blocks before command - but with command - which I VASTLY prefer -[b] you need relays and sensors and all kinds of things[/b] to get the trains to run smoothly through a reversing loop. [/quote]

Really?? How do all the HO & N scale layouts that are 2-rail and have balloon tracks manage?? For DCC, simple 'reverse loop modules' are readily available. Honestly, judging by many of the comments I see from 3-rail guys, anyone would think these smaller scales, that work perfectly well in 2-rail, had never been invented!!??!!

Even w/o DCC it's not a big deal.  I have one on my little layout and it's a single switch to flip and everything runs just fine. The reverse loop thing is just another bit of mythology that continues to be perpetrated as an excuse to shun 2 rail.

Really?? How do all the HO & N scale layouts that are 2-rail and have balloon tracks manage?? For DCC, simple 'reverse loop modules' are readily available. Honestly, judging by many of the comments I see from 3-rail guys, anyone would think these smaller scales, that work perfectly well in 2-rail, had never been invented!!??!!

I'll admit I haven't followed HO and N or DCC all that closely since switching to 3-rail O, and I'm definitely not an expert.  It just always seemed people were either complaining about the complexity or the cost of the electronics to manage it all.  I remember one conversation in another forum where an HO modeler just completely questioned the need for a reverse loop at all.  As if it wasn't common in HO and most people didn't have them.  I honestly have no idea, like I said before it's been a good 20 years since I've thought seriously about HO, and there's enough to keep track of building an O scale layout as is.

But the point stands, in dead rail and 3-rail, it's not a concern. 

@mwb posted:

Even w/o DCC it's not a big deal.  I have one on my little layout and it's a single switch to flip and everything runs just fine. The reverse loop thing is just another bit of mythology that continues to be perpetrated as an excuse to shun 2 rail.

Agreed.  I built a wye for my 24'x16' HO layout when I was 16 and a DPDT switch with some wire was all I needed to make it work.

@j2morris posted:

I also agree that some 3 rail sales clearly go to 2 railers who convert the items.  I recently purchased an MTH NH GP7 from Beth - converted to 2 rail wheels, constructed proper longer pilots and repainted handrail stantions correctly after creating new proper railings for the extended pilot stairs.  Part of the hobby used to be modeling what you wanted.

I think each person building a layout has to pick their battles.  Some are good at modeling, some are good at wiring, and others are good at scenery.

I feel like your assertion is a little bit like the "No true Scotsman" fallacy.  Do you hand lay all of your track?  Do you cut the ties yourself?  Do you do your own motor windings?  Some people buy it and some people make it and most of us are somewhere in between.

@mwb posted:

Even w/o DCC it's not a big deal.  I have one on my little layout and it's a single switch to flip and everything runs just fine. The reverse loop thing is just another bit of mythology that continues to be perpetrated as an excuse to shun 2 rail.

I actually said that.  I felt that before DCC, 2-rail reversing loops were easier and much less costly.

rplst8.  I totally agree with your thoughts, just saying that some 2 railers convert 3 rail equipment and that doesn't show up in the sales numbers.  Didn't mean to discount/disregard others who practice the hobby differently.  To each there own and hopefully they enjoy it!

BTW, I do lay my own track and cut my own ties on my O scale trolley layout since good street guider rail is not available in O scale.  I have rewound a motor or two in the past, I don't recommend it.  Still use Pittmans when I can.

I came to O scale from HO, actually I've been through all the scales a timer 2. Had a substantial HO layout and an early adopter of DCC, still have my "system one"  now (NCE) to run my Bachmann on30. My first purchases where from Scott at 3rd rail, 2 rail O scale. At the time I couldn't find large enough DCC decoders. The local hobby had a Lionel S2 and gave me a good deal on it and I bought some fast-track just to have something to run as I had sold off my HO. That introduced me 2 scale 3 rail, I like how well the engine operated and ended up buying more three rail stuff. By the time I found good decoders with sound that were available in for 0 scale I had already sold off my two rail and had such a large investment in 3 rail that I elected to not go back.

@j2morris posted:

rplst8.  I totally agree with your thoughts, just saying that some 2 railers convert 3 rail equipment and that doesn't show up in the sales numbers.  Didn't mean to discount/disregard others who practice the hobby differently.  To each there own and hopefully they enjoy it!

BTW, I do lay my own track and cut my own ties on my O scale trolley layout since good street guider rail is not available in O scale.  I have rewound a motor or two in the past, I don't recommend it.  Still use Pittmans when I can.

Cool, my bad.  I jumped to conclusions.  I've rewound some field windings on old Flyer stuff.  Fun times.

@j2morris posted:

rplst8.  I totally agree with your thoughts, just saying that some 2 railers convert 3 rail equipment and that doesn't show up in the sales numbers.  Didn't mean to discount/disregard others who practice the hobby differently.  To each there own and hopefully they enjoy it!

That flows both ways.  Over the years I have bought a number of two rail cars that I converted for three rail use.   Sometimes it was because the item wasn't made in 3 rail.  Other times it was because I couldn't locate the item in 3 rail or the price differential broke heavily that way.  So far for me it has been exclusively freight cars, but others have posted about efforts to convert locomotives. 

@bob3 posted:

I never thought about the fire hazard / liability of Lithium batteries in our trains - interesting point in regard to future widespread availability from a major manufacturer

...

My Tesla is powered by lithium batteries and charges in my closed garage when I am asleep.  Most of my power tools are powered by lithium batteries as well as my lawn mower and my snow blower.  My drone is lithium powered.  And my laptop.  And other things.  I am simply not concerned about lithium batteries any longer.  BUT, part of the issue with model trains is the availability of a complete system.  For years I tried hobbling something together.   Not a concern about the batteries but getting it to work and fit as expected at all.

For years I spent the most frustrating time during my career dealing with vendors pointing fingers at each other when things didn't work properly and was having the same issues with model trains.  Ahhhhh... no more!

@rdunniii posted:

My Tesla is powered by lithium batteries and charges in my closed garage when I am asleep.  Most of my power tools are powered by lithium batteries as well as my lawn mower and my snow blower.  My drone is lithium powered.  And my laptop.  And other things.  I am simply not concerned about lithium batteries any longer.  BUT, part of the issue with model trains is the availability of a complete system.  For years I tried hobbling something together.   Not a concern about the batteries but getting it to work and fit as expected at all.

For years I spent the most frustrating time during my career dealing with vendors pointing fingers at each other when things didn't work properly and was having the same issues with model trains.  Ahhhhh... no more!

It's true, there are plenty of lithium batteries out there in many different forms.  However, a lot of the things you mentioned are built by large corporations, a few are very large.  The drone is probably the most comparable thing to trains.  I'm not doubting that it's possible that there might be a line of battery powered trains soon, or even that we may see this become mainstream.  I just see it as a potential hurdle, and I think on the fly charging removes most of that as well as bringing a lot of user friendliness.

@rplst8 posted:

It's true, there are plenty of lithium batteries out there in many different forms.  However, a lot of the things you mentioned are built by large corporations, a few are very large.  The drone is probably the most comparable thing to trains.  I'm not doubting that it's possible that there might be a line of battery powered trains soon, or even that we may see this become mainstream.  I just see it as a potential hurdle, and I think on the fly charging removes most of that as well as bringing a lot of user friendliness.

Absolutely!  One of the main things about a system is that it works with a charging track.  And that is the only power on the track so that dirty track become irrelevant.

I don't know for sure, but I'd guess the charging circuitry and safety features of a Tesla or power tool are significantly more sophisticated and expensive than the charging circuitry and safety features of the LiPo setups in use for model airplanes/boats/cars/drones.  The latter are repeatedly subject to reports and warning of LiPo batteries catching on fire, bursting or otherwise doing nasty stuff so that manufacturers recommend charging in metal containers or fire resistant bags.  This suggests that model trains and their LiPo batteries might best be sold using the same sorts of chargers and safety provisions used in the more expensive power tools and cars if this difference is real, as I suspect it is.

Ive seen plenty of cool stuff in 2 rail come out in the last decade.

PRR GRa gondolas,  the H30 covered hoppers.  MILW ribbed side box cars, and of the Atlas USRA hopper cars, 8000 gallon tank cars, or AC-2 covered hoppers.    All the golden gate passenger cars...and our special run of the 64' woodside coaches.    Engines....MTH did big boys in 2 rail 6 months ago, but now they are all gone.   2 rail diesels...Ive been pushing for this..and hopefully some day it will happen.  2 rail road diesels..there are plenty available.

I'm getting MTH steel drop bottom gondolas done in 2 rail (as well as 3 rail) . They are really nice highly detailed cars.    The remarks I get from 2 railers when they see some of the nice MTH stuff is...."i had no idea this stuff was that nice".

Im also going to have a program introduced on the website maybe in a month....where if u buy an MTH freight car, 2 rail trucks for it will be available for $19.95 .  I know its not 5.00 bucks, but best I can do right now.  Part of the probem with the MTH cars is that the bolster screws go in from the top down, and u have to take the car apart to change the trucks, and I dont have time for that.  If it was an easy truck change, I could do them and charge less..

What would u want that has enough mass appeal to make the project economically viable?  Id say of course diesel switchers (like an alco S-2) and consolidations, but what else. 

FWIW... The last time Atlas offered the SW series switchers, they cancelled the run due to low order numbers.   You cant expect the manufacturers and dealers to take all the risk, and then have the hobbyists sit back and decide.  "well maybe I'll get it after I see it. "    The marketplace has spoken...and dealers are saying "im not stocking any 2 rail". Im only ordering what customers order.  And the numbers  are coming up short for production.

I wish I had the answer..other than more publicity for 2 rail

my .02 again

I'm a 47yr old 2R convert from 3R. I left 3R because the detail kept getting better and better in the 90s and later, and eventually the models were so close to scale that I couldn't stand the track anymore. Personally I love the features and "play" value that 3R brings, but I can't stand the track, swinging pilots, etc... So I went to 2R O thinking it would be the same only with 2R track. Wow was I wrong. I started the 2R Facebook group, and over the years it has taught me that I do not think like the typical 2R modeler.  I want different things out of my models and my hobby than the majority in 2R. That's fine, but it shows that the segment is divided amongst itself. In several factions actually if you include P48 which seems to be growing.

As for advertising, we have over 2,000 members on the FB group. Everyone is quite aware what has and is going to be made. I don't think the MFGs are making products people want to buy. Atlas canceled that SW order and you are putting the blame on the consumer which I don't think is fair. I think they chose bad road names. If they were to offer Erie, EL, Chessie, or B&O I'd buy 6 of them right now on the spot! If they only do a road name once every 20 years or so they might not sell very many! Also, how many people simply don't trust Atlas to deliver anymore? The GP7s are 6 years behind and counting now! Why would anyone want to lay out a deposit for something that they have no idea of whether it will be made? It's not like the deposit is the only issue either... 3rd Rail doesn't require a deposit, but just look at the issues with the recent geeps. I started out wanting 6 models in Chessie, B&O, and Erie.  Then it was decided that I couldn't get 7s and 9s in both schemes only one or the other, and the B&O scheme that I wanted wouldn't be offered. Come delivery time and 2 of the 4 I had ordered were sold to someone else so I was left with 2 of the 6 that I wanted. When I finally got them they didn't run well and were not what I expected. This really has me on the fence going forward.

With the demise of MTH and apparently no takers for the O scale scale wheel steam I will never be able to buy a RTR steamer with sound and smoke again. I have a list of steam engines that were never made that I would be happy to pay for, but that's not likely to happen. I think the fair thing to say is that this is as much on the mfgs. as it is on the customers. 

Let's face facts... HO has about 2/3 of the entire model RR market according to the industry experts. Of the remaining 1/3 N scale has 10%. That means O scale 2R and 3R are fighting for the scraps of what's left with 3R taking the bulk of that. With the hobby shrinking we should expect to see the fringe scales affected first. Just look at On3, S, Sn3, On30, HOn3, G, etc... All shrinking.

I'm struggling personally as to whether I can stay in O for the long term. For example, it's really frustrating that Atlas made a Chessie SW900 20 years ago and I have never been able to find one in 2R so I finally bought a 3R model and converted it. So now I have a total of 1...  How am I supposed to build a roster at that pace? I am very willing to spend the money, but I want products that interest me. I'm not going to spend money on stuff I don't want. Lately I've been converting Lionel rolling stock which is very nice. If Lionel would offer their Diesels and Diecast steam in 2R I would buy them in a heartbeat. As it is I feel like I'm stuck. The scale seems to be dwindling around me and I can't get the stuff I want. Perhaps the mfgs. should pay more attention to the desires of the customers that are here now and willing to spend money? Example, We have been discussing the EMD SW1 lately on FB. We did a poll a while back and there seems to be a lot of support for this project, but so far we don't have a firm commitment or announcement from any mfg. If we can't get an SW1 made I'm not sure what will move the needle personally.

@Landsteiner posted:

The latter are repeatedly subject to reports and warning of LiPo batteries catching on fire, bursting or otherwise doing nasty stuff so that manufacturers recommend charging in metal containers or fire resistant bags.

A lithium battery fire burns hotter than the melting point of steel.  I'd recommend a ceramic container.

So, if I may summarize, Beth, tell Atlas to get off the stick and start delivering stuff.   Their box used to say "the future of O", and they were right. This is the future they have delivered.  Nothing plus nothing equals nothing, as the song says.   No more excuses, If they need to work 16 hours a day seven days a week for a while to get things going DO IT.   I had to do it to make new product delivery dates many times and even if you did and the product was delayed more that couple of weeks people got fired.  And I'm certain I'm not the only one.

@rplst8 posted:

A lithium battery fire burns hotter than the melting point of steel.  I'd recommend a ceramic container.

I hate to help take this post off topic, but just to help out the folks interested in the battery conversation...

There are different types of Lithium batteries. Mainly Lithium Ion batteries are used in phones, laptops, and many EV cars. These batteries are volatile and absolutely can catch fire and burn extremely hot.  Lithium Polymer batteries are another type which is typically found in the Radio Control model hobby. They are extremely power dense, meaning they are light and pack a lot of juice. They are also very flammable. They are known to catch fire if crashed, dropped, overcharged, or mishandled. They tend to explode and throw super hot bits of themselves onto their surroundings setting it ablaze. I know people that have lost homes and cars to LiPo batteries. Less energy dense, but far safer are LiFePo4 or Lithium Phosphate batteries. You can drive a nail straight through a cell and it will not catch fire. These are the types of batteries that I prefer for anything that isn't weight critical (Trains, boats, trolling motors, etc...) because they are safer, but still half the weight/size of a comparable Lead Acid battery.

The most important bit of advice is to make sure you use an approved charger for the type of battery you have. Only charge within the parameters of that battery. For example, charging LiPo batteries at too high a rate, for too long, or on a charger that has malfunction is a recipe for a fire. I've flown LiPos in my RC planes for 20 years and the advice has always been to NEVER leave a LiPo on a charger unattended. Do not turn your back on those things. They have improved over the years but the chemistry and propensity to go into thermal runaway and combust still exists.  Again, LiFePo4 batteries are much more forgiving. I recommend them for Dead Rail over all other types unless you are a seasoned expert and know what you are doing.

Hope that helps someone. Do a little research and don't just assume all Lithium batteries are the same or it could bite you. If anyone wants to discuss further I'm happy to help, just PM me.

Jonathan makes some excellent points re Lithium batteries.

Look, battery technology has come a long way in the past few years...for a myriad of applications, from automobiles to ultralight R/C aircraft intended for indoor (still air) flying.  There are caveats for a lot of commonly used batteries.  Heck, what have we learned along the way about ye olde alkaline batteries and their shortcomings of charging, long-term storage, etc., etc..

The  point of discussing the potential of 'dead rail' in this hobby is to project what current...and future...batteries might do to change the hobby...for the better, hopefully.  I've said it many times, but if you want to see what Lithium batteries have done to revolutionize the R/C industry, go to a full line hobby shop, the R/C counter.  Chat with the folks behind the counter about what's happened...R/C airplanes, cars, ultralights, helicopters, drones, powered boats/ships, sailing vessels, construction equipment, military equipment, robotics.    Ask the folks who favor the Large Scale (typ. G) branch of model railroading most commonly used outdoors...how NOT having to maintain rail condition for electrical continuity has changed their enjoyment of the hobby.

Yes, there are bad stories about batteries in most branches of the R/C hobby industry.  Many of them are borne of bad assumptions, misinformation, ignoring instructions and fine print therein among the users...NOT the manufacturers.  But there are a lot of positive experiences, excitement, enjoyment among those hobbyists who want to learn and be a part of this evolution.

IMHO, to dismiss the possibilities of dead rail and battery power in the future of O scale model railroading would be as embarrassing as some other famous past predictions among 'experts' about technological change/impact that has now become commonplace and necessary in our daily lives...like some guy by the name of Bill Gates in 1989:"We will never make a 32-bit operating system!"...or Ken Olsen, 1977: "There is no reason anyone would want a computer in their home!"    ( It's easy to find those memorable gaffes in a few key strokes.)

Favorite quote: "There is a correlation between the creative and the screwball.  So we must suffer the screwball gladly", Kingman Brewster  (Former Yale University president, ambassador to Great Britain, et al.

KD

@rplst8 posted:

I guess I'll take your word for it?

Do a little more research. That is not a prismatic type LiFePo4 cell. Which just illustrates my point. Lithium batteries are different and people need to understand what they are dealing with.

Notice that there is no fire or even smoke after the puncture. Do that with a LiPo and everything will be on fire. I've been using all of these different types of batteries for over 20 years and I'm trying to help educate people. How about you?

Last edited by jonnyspeed
@clem k posted:

Is there room for batteries, sound, and smoke in a diesel locomotive.

Absolutely. If it can be done in HO it can be done in O:

If I could get my wish Lionel would make 2R Hi-rail battery powered engines and a new line of 2 Rail Hi-Rail track. That would enable them to run on traditional 3R layouts or 2R layouts. MTH had the right idea with Proto 3/2, but they fell a little short due to a few critical misses in their design. With a little tweaking the MTH Hi-Rail engines would have been able to run on code 148 2R Atlas track but they got the gauge and tread size wrong.  I have a feeling that most 3R modelers stay in 3R because they can get big trains in a smaller space. Not because they love the look of 3R track. Of the prominent 3R modelers that I've spoken with every one of them would rather have 2R track. They don't want to give up Smoke and Sound and they definitely don't want to have to double the min. radius or more to run traditional 2R models. I really think a new line of 2R Hi-rail models, possibly deadrail, would convert a lot of 3R modelers.

Just my 2 cents...

Last edited by jonnyspeed
@jonnyspeed posted:

Absolutely. If it can be done in HO it can be done in O:



If I could get my wish Lionel would make 2R Hi-rail battery powered engines and a new line of 2 Rail Hi-Rail track. That would enable them to run on traditional 3R layouts or 2R layouts. MTH had the right idea with Proto 3/2, but they fell a little short due to a few critical misses in their design. With a little tweaking the MTH Hi-Rail engines would have been able to run on code 148 2R Atlas track but they got the gauge and tread size wrong.  I have a feeling that most 3R modelers stay in 3R because they can get big trains in a smaller space. Not because they love the look of 3R track. Of the prominent 3R modelers that I've spoken with every one of them would rather have 2R track. They don't want to give up Smoke and Sound and they definitely don't want to have to double the min. radius or more to run traditional 2R models. I really think a new line of 2R Hi-rail models, possibly deadrail, would convert a lot of 3R modelers.

Just my 2 cents...

Jonathan, I agree with a lot of what you say. I think a new line of 2R Hi-Rail will possibly get the new to semi-new folks in 3 rail to convert. Someone younger who hasn't been in the hobby a very long time and has yet to amass a large collection and it is also someone who does not have an affinity for running Lionel PW. I do not see the guy who has been in the hobby 20+ years with a large collection of locomotives converting to 2 Rail even if he could run the locomotives in the same curve radius he does in 3 rail. That person just has too much invested in 3 rail to make the switch and I don't blame them. I think it's fairly rare to get a convert from 3 rail. When I did it I had less than 10 locomotives. Most guys that come to 2 rail come from HO. I am just stating what I have seen over the years using this forum as a judge. Maybe I am wrong because there are people out there that do not participate here. However, I do see a possibility that if there was a new line of 2R Hi-Rail maybe some of the more seasoned guys in 3 rail would add a loop of it to their layout.

By the way, I just wanted to mention, when you said that Atlas cancelled the run of the SWs I had a Raritan River SW on pre-order. Recently I did the same thing as you: About 6 weeks ago I saw an Atlas SW (NYC) on eBay go for over $500 so when I saw a 3 rail UP SW for $80 I bought it with the intent of someday converting it to 2 rail. Unfortunately, I read somewhere, possibly on this thread that the parts are no longer available from Atlas. Isn't that wonderful?

This has taken an interesting turn.  I have with me an EarthX LiFePO4 battery, approved by the FAA for aircraft use.  Expensive as all get-out, and I know nothing about it (yet).  It is so light you would think it was empty.  16 amp hours.  A normal 12 amp hour battery will start my aircraft 70 times between charging.

I bet that a tender-size battery of the same type would be the next step.  But at $600 a pop, not yet ripe for model trains.

Reverse loops are handled easily with a Tam Valley juicer.  Four wires, if I remember correctly, and its done.  Totally automatic.  I wired a wye with one  4pdt switch.  Just flip the switch when the engine comes to a stop after clearing the points and your done.  No problem with either one of these nasties.

Are these the problems that are holding down 2 rail sales?

Ed

There are now functioning, successful solid state battery prototypes reportedly made by a few companies (e.g., QuantumScape & Samsung), and only 4 to 5 years away from being mass-produced.  Smaller, lighter, greater charging density, greatly reduced charging time, longer-lasting as dendrite formation is limited or eliminated, less toxic ingredients - it is like the holy grail of batteries.  It will ignite a revolution in everything from laptops and mobile phones to motor vehicles to renewables to the nature of our electric grid; the model train will evolve as well.  It will be an exciting time to be involved in the hobby.

All of which is to say:  Deadrail and RC model trails will become more prevalent, and they will likely run on 2-rail track!

David

@Ed Kelly posted:

Reverse loops are handled easily with a Tam Valley juicer.  Four wires, if I remember correctly, and its done.  Totally automatic.  

I'll have to look into this, thanks for the tip.

I wired a wye with one  4pdt switch.  Just flip the switch when the engine comes to a stop after clearing the points and your done.  No problem with either one of these nasties.

I've read that allowing the engine to come to a halt on dead track, especially with a lengthy train behind it, is not good for the drive train.  I think this is how gears get stripped of their teeth or cracked.

Additionally, this method only works for conventional operation, since at least for DCS locomotives there is no watchdog signal.

Overall, I realize that much of this is solved in some way or another in the 2-rail world and DCC.  My points were for 3-railers looking to convert.  When you add up all those hurdles and the cost, converting from 2-rail to 3-rail is less than likely.

Dead rail does solve a lot of these problems - I totally agree.  However, we need to be careful about trading poor aesthetics of 3-rail for the potential hazards of lithium batteries.  I understand they are getting safer and I'm not against them.  As I've stated in my other posts, I just think on-the-fly charging is a safer, and more convenient, bet than charging off the layout.  That's my only argument.  Not that we should never allow lithium batteries in our homes. Not that dead rail is stupid.  Not that 2-rail is a waste of time or that 3-rail is king.  Just that the tradeoffs should be considered and a safe and practical mass market solution is what eventually wins out.

Part of me wonders if batteries could be avoided entirely with model railroads by using large supercapacitors.  Their biggest drawback is that they don't stay charged very long, however they also charge very quickly.  As far as I know, they don't suffer from the aging side effects that rechargeable batteries do and they aren't as hazardous to recycle.

A locomotive powered by a large supercap or bank of supercaps could recharge on-the-fly on intermittent 2-rail powered sections placed strategically around the layout, with the supercap carrying the load between charging points.  The only drawback is that when the layout powers up, it may take a minute or so for the supercaps to charge to full capacity.  Signaling would all be OTA, hopefully with some standard common to all manufacturers, and dirty track would not be a concern either.

Last edited by rplst8
@Ed Kelly posted:

Reverse loops are handled easily with a Tam Valley juicer.  Four wires, if I remember correctly, and its done.  Totally automatic.  I wired a wye with one  4pdt switch.  Just flip the switch when the engine comes to a stop after clearing the points and your done.  No problem with either one of these nasties.

Are these the problems that are holding down 2 rail sales?

Ed

Only the mythology surrounding such stuff is the contributing factor.  That and the other myths surrounding space and cost.

But sales are probably not really impacted much by anything other that failures to deliver what is advertised in a timely manner combined with very little of broad appeal being offered. How many years are people waiting for announced or advertised items.   It's also a relatively small segment comparatively but also diverse in interests so broad appeal products are challenging. 2 rail is also generally not possessive of a buy everything as it comes onto the market collector mentality.

@Ed Kelly posted:

Reverse loops are handled easily with a Tam Valley juicer.  Four wires, if I remember correctly, and its done.  Totally automatic.  I wired a wye with one  4pdt switch.  Just flip the switch when the engine comes to a stop after clearing the points and your done.  No problem with either one of these nasties.

Are these the problems that are holding down 2 rail sales?

Ed

I have a PSX-AR by DCC Specialties that I used for my turntable. It is the same as the Tam Valley. Just 4 wires. Very easy to hook up and it switched the polarity quickly. Sometimes I would see a slight spark but the locomotive did not slow down due to incorrect polarity.

@mwb posted:

2 rail is also generally not possessive of a buy everything as it comes onto the market collector mentality.

Which begs the question - if Lionel would switch lock, stock, and barrel to 2-rail battery powered units with some form of OTA DCC - wouldn't the "collectors" just continue to buy it anyway?

All Lionel would have to do is offer interchangeable wheel sets (high-rail and scale) and they would instantly broaden their market appeal getting collectors, 3-rail operators, and 2-railers.  For the 3-rail operators they would just need a Legacy to OTA DCC bridge - and that should simplify the electronics package considerably. Obviously, I'm assuming it would continue to support conventional running for those not into command and that collectors mostly just keep them on the shelf.

The primary reason that I am a 3-rail runner is that I can run large engines in a relatively small space.  The minimum curve on both my home and club layouts is O-72.  I can run any 3-rail engine on these curves.  Many, if not most, 3-rail layout builders on the forum run on curves smaller than O-72.

I believe that if 2-rail models were designed to negotiate O-72 curves and had the same detail level as Lionel Legacy or MTH Premier, then the 2-rail segment would take off.  The biggest reason that 2-rail remains a small hobby segment is that the large curves require too much space.  NH Joe

@rplst8 posted:

Which begs the question - if Lionel would switch lock, stock, and barrel to 2-rail battery powered units with some form of OTA DCC - wouldn't the "collectors" just continue to buy it anyway?

I believe they would. It seems to me that "collectors" are buying the brand; the model itself is a secondary consideration. You see this with almost anything: a collector of a certain brand of glassware will buy a piece, whether it's a cup or a serving platter...

Mark in Oregon

Last edited by Strummer

I just don't think battery technology is refined enough to have a dependable train layout unless you want to spend a lot of time on battery maintenance and charging.  Batteries for RC airplanes are finicky, short-lived, and relatively expensive.  I usually settle for Ni-Cd or Ni-MH batteries and accept the higher weight just to get some longevity.  Many don't even want the Protosound 2 battery; they replace it with a BCR.

Also, three rail track with the center rail removed is still gigantic (try it), which may explain why S gauge (usually) offers both hi-rail and scale track and wheelsets.

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