2016 AF catalog is up!!!

Gosh, I was surprised by how little I really liked.  

I was shocked that Lionel didn't even change the boiler front for the NYC 4-8-4 and put on "elephant ears" so it would look even a little like the Niagara's that actually ran on the Central. (Photo by Norman Hechtkoff)

One positive is that the Flyer Chief Dockside will actually have an audible "Choo-Choo" and a whistle/bell if you can believe the catalog (which says that the Berkshires have a "flickering firebox"light and they do not ) and the smoke unit will probably work better at a constant 18 volts than in does in the conventional dockside engines at regular operating speeds.  

Maybe I'll buy the CNW stock car and maybe a caboose, but maybe not.  I'm not really all that excited about what I see.  

I sure hope that MTH has something more appealing, but given the time lag getting the TOFC to market, not to mention the F3's I'm not gonna hold my breath. 

Little Tommy

Ben,

The Frisco Paint Scheme looks pretty prototypical to me.

(photo from www.steamlocomotive.com by Anthony Wessel)

Little Tommy

Looked at the catalog briefly this morning.   Won't be able to get a better look until tonight.  Interesting that the Northerns are now FlyerChief.  They look nice, but I never could get exited about the Flyer Northern in general. 

And yes, Frisco had three Northerns painted blue and silver:

Also in two other flavors: Frisco Fast Freight:

And good, plain ol' black:

The Milwaukee Road Northern is #265, which lives at IRM.

At least the SD70's are still Legacy at this point, glad to see the UP series finally completed.

Seems the cylindrical hoppers are really a lead brick around Flyer's neck.  Looks like all of them are still present.  Probably a combination of the truck issue and "heritage overload."

I agree with Ben, better than last year's catalog, but that was a pretty low bar to clear.  Guess Lionel's still going to have to search for the "magic bullet" to improve Flyer sales.

Rusty

Its not a bad offering

Surprised that there are no Legacy Alco's offered.  Since the D&H and the SP were built to order I do not know how they are going to sell more Passenger cars in those names without making more of the engines.  Would have preferred the Northern's as Legacy instead of Flyerchief.  No new accessories which is a shame.  Seems better than last year but nothing excites me.  I will get the 3 new Legacy SD70's and the Meteor.  I may pick up the docksider set.  Will buy some of the new freight cars.

--Rocco--

I really like the Frisco's color scheme.  Too bad it shows November delivery for the Northerns on the dealers advance order form.  That's a long time off. I am glad they aren't Legacy as that probably would have added $200 to their cost.  FlyerChief is fine.

Lionel puts things in new catalogs if dealers, distributors, and they have unsold inventory.  That is why old production is still in every new catalog.  That is probably why it still shows the passenger cars, but not their Alcos.  

The catalog shows the Berks, but I talked to my contact at Lionel yesterday and he said he didn't know of any plans to make another run.  The catalogs probably went to print before Lionel knew how fast they would sell out.

The FlyerChief Northerns are the only real addition to the product line I see.  And they are not a new tooling expense for Lionel.  The truth is Lionel didn't spend much for the 2016 Flyer offering.  I hope they spend more in 2017. 

Roundhouse Bill posted:

I really like the Frisco's color scheme.  Too bad it shows November delivery for the Northerns on the dealers advance order form.  

 

November's probably an optimistic delivery date.  Pretty sure the O Gauge BTO's will suck up the most of the manufacturing schedule for 2016.

Rusty

A few more thoughts;

I am surprised there were not any additional PE pieces, particularly an S gauge copy's of the O gauge PE freight cars. They seem to be good sellers and I think they are cool.

I noticed that Lionel made an attempt to address the truck and wheel issues with the first run cylindrical hoppers.  "New couplers" to fix the derailing issue, as we all know, that is no fix.  Why not just eat it and put the high rail wheel sets on the cars? It would cost more than couplers, but you might then be able to sell off that stock sitting on shelves everywhere.   

Rusty and LittleTommy, thanks for the pictures of the Frisco Meteor. It's funny, when I flipped through the catalog I was not impressed with that, seemed almost a little gaudy to me.  This morning my 5 year old flips through the catalog and he lost his mind over that engine. It was the only thing he said we "need" to get, so I might be getting one now. 

I see that Mikwaukee Road 265 several times a year at IRM and I have to get it. I will probably get the UP northern too.  These are obviously just reworked Gilbert models, but I have always like them. Having FlyerChief in them is a real plus.  

I was really hoping for a cool R-T-R set, ugh...that ugly little docksider.  Out off all the engines in the Flyonel stable, why that one??? A Baldwin or ALCo would have been so much better.  Or the Berk, bring back the Berk sets.  

It is nice to see some Cabooses back, I will get the SantaFe, NKP and UP.  I am really looking forward to MTH getting their cabooses out this year.  

The traditional rolling stock is...well...traditional.  Pretty boring, but I will get the C&NW stock car, just love them colors! 

What makes this catalog viable for me is to finally have a completion to the UP heritage SD70s.  I REALLY thought this was a lost cause, what a nice surprise.  This catalog was a little better than last year, so maybe next year will be even a little better yet??? 

Ben

After seeing blowout prices from Charles Ro a short while back, basically $80 for brand new non-powered (I bought the N&W ES44AC) and $269 for powereds, it is really hard for me to accept that $599 MSRP on the new SD70ACe's for example.  I'd kind of like to get a BNSF diesel, but it seems like I passed on opportunities to buy brand new in the low 300's.  I'm just conditioned to lower prices, I guess.

Is there any reason for me not  to believe I can get a half-price Katy Heritage if I just wait for a bit after they come out? 

November's probably an optimistic delivery date.  Pretty sure the O Gauge BTO's will suck up the most of the manufacturing schedule for 2016.

Rusty_____________________________

Hay Rusty they hit the mark on the Berkshires so why not the Northerns?

Im Happy with the new catalog. A lot of stuff I want. some of it I will have. 

Roundhouse Bill posted:

November's probably an optimistic delivery date.  Pretty sure the O Gauge BTO's will suck up the most of the manufacturing schedule for 2016.

Rusty_____________________________

Hay Rusty they hit the mark on the Berkshires so why not the Northerns?

After a year's delay from initially announcing them as set locomotives...  Plus, their components were probably run and inventoried the same time as the Polar Express locomotives, they just needed some time on the paint line.

If the Northerns come in in November, fine.  There will be a lot of happy folks.   But, there's a lot of big-buck BTO O gauge being promised, and I suspect they will be the priority. 

I would expect January 2017 at the earliest.

Doesn't really matter to me as I won't be ordering a Northern anyways.  As I mentioned earlier, I have no real affinity for the Flyer Northern, even with it being a decent model of the UP FEF-1. 

Rusty

Here's what I'm ordering.

The UP and NS SD70. Hopefully one day we'll see a  black and white NS ES44 unit(s).

The UP and Milw Northerns. I am really tempted by the Frisco.

The CSX waffle sided box car.  The NATX 3 dome tank car. The NYC bay window caboose The C&NW stock car.

What I'm not ordering.

I was happy to see a demo. But they did the wrong paint scheme. The one with more white area has the upper headlight.  The CAT would be wrong too.  As with the BNSF they had about 30 SD70s with upper headlights. But the cab numbers were 9370 - 9399 the past and current Lionel offerings had the wrong cab numbers on them. Sorry to beat this point into the ground, but paying about $500 per unit, I need more accuracy.  On the traditional stuff, I'll take more liberties with the realism factor.

I just went to the Lionel website to look at their other catalogs.  In the Signature O gauge catalog all of their Legacy steam engines are all "Build to Order."  The price of the Allegheny is $2,199.99 and Daylight GS4 is $1,699.99.  Smallish steam Legacy's are $999.99.  Wow is all I can say about price.  I am glad their Flyonel Legacy steam stuff has been cheaper.

I do like their new Legacy controlled accessories and wonder what they would look like on my S gauge layout.

Looking at the catalogs is running pretty slow just now.  There are probably 100's of people looking.  But it is such cheap fun just to look.

Not much for me in the new catalog. A couple pieces of rolling stock. I guess. The re-cataloged content is an attempt to sell what is already on the dealers' shelves. No new Legacy steam. I already own a number of the fine Legacy modern diesels. The Northerns are a strong hint to me to convert my two L-AF Northerns to TMCC via the cost-effective route of ERR boards. I am doubly glad to have obtained a complete Legacy D&H PA set this past year.

I agree that one of the engines that jumps out at you is the Frisco Northern, which is striking and not protoypically crazy. But, what about appropriate passenger cars (?) and (sigh) it is FlyerCheap. Well, at least it will have wire hand rails.

Others, please indulge, if you wish.

Bob

I know the Frisco northern and blue comet heavy weight names dont match but the color appears to,they would look good together  

Bob and Mark,

There is an image gallery of  SL-SF Passenger Trains on the Classic Trains website  and it contains this image of the Frisco Loco and what appears to be a mixed consist of heavyweights

LittleTommy

Good tries, guys. However, something in matching blue with white stripes would be the ticket for a striking steamer such as this L-AF Frisco Northern.

Bob

LittleTommy posted:

Bob and Mark,

There is an image gallery of  SL-SF Passenger Trains on the Classic Trains website  and it contains this image of the Frisco Loco and what appears to be a mixed consist of heavyweights

 

LittleTommy

The Frisco was fully dieselized by 1951, going out with a wimper on February 29 as light Mikado 4018 returned to Birmingham on a local freight.  Some steam locomotives were held in reserve until 1953 due to the Korean war, when they were either scrapped, sold or donated.

Meteor aside, the remainder of Frisco heavyweight passenger cars were Pullman Green.

Rusty

I wonder since the Frisco Northern with it's flashy paint is highlighted, if there is any thinking about cars to go with it?  I am to interview Matt Ashba at York again for the S Gaugian so I will post the question in my questions.  I have to send them to him in early March so he can find out the answers and get them approved by the people above him in the organization.  

My plan is to order the Frisco but, that will be all except for perhaps the new waffle sided box car.

In the Signature Catalog for O they have so many more modern car types.  I wish they could do just a few for S.  

Roundhouse Bill posted:

In the Signature Catalog for O they have so many more modern car types.  I wish they could do just a few for S.  

I think the "thud" heard around the world with the cylindrical hoppers effectively took care of that.

Rusty

Something to think about:

Three of the six new cabooses have no recent locomotive associated with them.

I'd hazard to guess a traditional FlyerChief locomotive (GP7/9/20?) in the next catalog.

Rusty

LittleTommy posted:

Gosh, I was surprised by how little I really liked.  

I was shocked that Lionel didn't even change the boiler front for the NYC 4-8-4 and put on "elephant ears" so it would look even a little like the Niagara's that actually ran on the Central. (Photo by Norman Hechtkoff)

 

I tend to agree with you regarding the Niagara.  While I understand Lionel's desire to contain costs, the tender is completely wrong for the engine and it's one of the key features of the prototype. I like Niagara's.  If they'd only had done the correct tender. 

Steve

Or anything close to a Niagara...

The Nickle Plate caboose is actually not new.  When they did the Nickle Plate Jeeps years ago they did a caboose as I have one.  A number of Nickle Plate freight cars were produced too.

The tender for the New York Central 4-8-4 would have meant new tooling.  That would have been too much money for an engine that probably wouldn't have generated enough sales to pay the tooling cost.  However they do have the elephant ear tooling because their earlier UP passenger Northern had them.  

Roundhouse Bill posted:

The Nickle Plate caboose is actually not new.  When they did the Nickle Plate Jeeps years ago they did a caboose as I have one.  A number of Nickle Plate freight cars were produced too.

Actually, newly cataloged NKP caboose is 'new' in that it is a Northeastern (a.k.a., Reading) type. The 6-48713 NKP caboose from 1997 is the (relatively new, then) offset cupola design.

Bob 

Bill, will you be trolling the  peanut gallery again for interview questions?  

Ben

The UP caboose looks like 48727 from 2005.

Rich

Anyone who has seen the price list get the projected delivery month on the 70ACes?  

Ben

Bob Bubeck posted:

Roundhouse Bill posted:

The Nickle Plate caboose is actually not new.  When they did the Nickle Plate Jeeps years ago they did a caboose as I have one.  A number of Nickle Plate freight cars were produced too.

Actually, newly cataloged NKP caboose is 'new' in that it is a Northeastern (a.k.a., Reading) type. The 6-48713 NKP caboose from 1997 is the (relatively new, then) offset cupola design.

Bob 

I would have wished the Northeastern caboose was offered with the NKP GP's.  For some reason, the original O27 clone caboose never looked "right" proportionally (to me,) although it works better as the current extended vision caboose.

The bay window caboose would also be a good candidate for Nickel Plate Road.

Rusty

Ben- The SD70's on the form say November delivery like the Northerns.  All of the new cars are 2nd or 3rd QTR.

Not asking for questions for the interview yet as it is early.  I will later.

Thanks

On new style freight cars Rusty.  I don't think it was the THUD of the hopper, I think it was the cancellation (BOINK) of the mechanical Refer.  Notice its still not back. 

Roundhouse Bill posted:

On new style freight cars Rusty.  I don't think it was the THUD of the hopper, I think it was the cancellation (BOINK) of the mechanical Refer.  Notice its still not back. 

And the fact that BOINK happened right before the scheduled delivery date.

All I can say is I had a hard time convincing my S Scale buddies about the merits of mechanical reefer, mainly because of the wheel gauge and ride height issues on the cylindrical hopper.  Judging by the fact that most of them are still cataloged (I think the Santa Fe version is the only one not there) the market was either quickly saturated or the Flyer/Hirail folks weren't too thrilled with them either.

It's a shame, because Lionel could have won over some more folks with the mechanical reefer.

Rusty

What I can't figure is why Lionel did not test the "scale" waters with a "scale" reefer from the 1940-1970 era that could have been converted to kadees.  The Scale guys would have liked it and the AF traditionalists and Hi Railers would have welcomed all of the old Gilbert paint schemes on a new car.  

Aside from the PRS cars, there has never been a hinged door steel sided reefer in S in recent times, and the transition era is the the era most modeled , so that is where I would started. The reefers can be quite colorful and Gilbert never even scratched the surface of all the great schemes (Armour, Swift, Oscar Meyer etc) 

Go figure.

LittleTommy

Seriously playing with the idea of purchasing one of the new Northerns and converting it to a Reading T1 (don't think Lionel will do it in my lifetime).  The tenders are going to be the big problem - they look like they are all oil type vs coal.  Adding the Wooten Fire Boiler wouldn't be difficult as well as the steam chest in the front. 

I love the flyerchief system and it makes more sense then to try to convert the PE to a northern. But there seems plenty of time to decide.

LittleTommy posted:

What I can't figure is why Lionel did not test the "scale" waters with a "scale" reefer from the 1940-1970 era that could have been converted to kadees.  The Scale guys would have liked it and the AF traditionalists and Hi Railers would have welcomed all of the old Gilbert paint schemes on a new car.  

Aside from the PRS cars, there has never been a hinged door steel sided reefer in S in recent times, and the transition era is the the era most modeled , so that is where I would started. The reefers can be quite colorful and Gilbert never even scratched the surface of all the great schemes (Armour, Swift, Oscar Meyer etc) 

Go figure.

LittleTommy

 

I would suspect a "scale" 1940-1970 40' reefer would look "too much like a Gilbert reefer" for many Flyer Folks.  The cylindrical hopper allowed Lionel to break out of the Gilbert mold and offer something totally different, a more modern car with a large area for graphics to match the newly released UP heritage 70's (and later the NS series.)

It apparently didn't work out as planned, because of the truck and coupler issues (which a lot of electrons have given their lives for) and that a fair amount of the "Scale" Folks that have a hard time getting past the American Flyer branding.  I'd be willing to bet if AM released the exact same car at the same detail level it would've been very well received across the board.

I think the FlyerChief Northerns will do well, as will the completion of the UP SD70 heritage series. (Notice there's no matching cylindrical hopper in WP and MKT?  I suspect there won't be in the future either.)  The differently numbered reruns of previous SD70's probably won't move as fast but will likely clear out because of lower production numbers.

Rusty

I can't help but jump in, even if we are heading down that old bumpy road but...the hoppers really are nice cars...some did not like the high water pants but really, the only thing that could have been messed up to make them unusable was!  They would have been far more successful if they could be used, you know like pulled down the rails....Crazy!  Even now, go to Ro's web site and you will see that a majority of the prototypical road names (meaning not the NS fantasy cars) are sold out, particularly the Canadian names.  Now online at least, I never saw Ro "blow them out".  They have been 57 bucks from day one.  (In all fairness I have heard that there have been deals on them with Ro at some train shows). 

Think about it Lionel, how many would you have sold IF they worked?  I am glad I finally got that off my chest, I had been keeping it in for so long! 

And I would love...just love them to recatalog the 57' reefer. Put it in, say the trucks won't suck...and then, if then whatever secret squirrel method Lionel uses to predict interest and profitability does not point to it being a viable product, pull it and then I will shut up. 

Ben

Other than the UP and Milwaukee versions, the Northerns are way too far from the prototype to be of any interest to me.  I would buy one for sure if someone would do an authentic NYC Niagara.  I would probably buy a UP Flyonel Northern if it was equipped with TMCC and high end Railsounds, but I'm less interested in a thrifted version with the FlyerChief control system.

I wonder if the lack of Prototypical detail on the flyer northern would preclude people from spending "legacy money" on one?  A Y3 sure, but the Gilbert northern...maybe not so much.  I think for most people the FlyerChief is well suited for a traditional piece like the northern. But I could be wrong (I have been before - but not about the mechanical reefers )

Ben