Just stopped by my LHS and took a quick look, as I didn't have much time, at the new catalog. A new Legacy Pacific in 6 roadnames, heavyweight passenger hospital cars, some new tankcars W/O platforms, annual Christmas cars, one with music and reruns of the previous heavyweights and EP5's. Probably to get additional orders. A few anniversary offerings and some additional things that I didn't pay much attention to.
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@richabr posted:Just stopped by my LHS and took a quick look, as I didn't have much time, at the new catalog. A new Legacy Pacific in 6 roadnames, heavyweight passenger hospital cars, some new tankcars W/O platforms, annual Christmas cars, one with music and reruns of the previous heavyweights and EP5's. Probably to get additional orders. A few anniversary offerings and some additional things that I didn't pay much attention to.
New Haven EP5’s? Are they Legacy or traditional?
@richabr posted:A few anniversary offerings and some additional things that I didn't pay much attention to.
Were things that bad then?
Please tell us more about the Pacifics!! What was the prototype for the engine? Could it have been a remake of the K5??
Sounds like the "boundless journey" has boundaries...
I guess they finally found the tooling for the Pacific's. Which would be a good thing.
Rusty
P.S. The subject line should mention Flyer or S so as not to confuse our O Gauge buddies.
@Rusty Traque posted:I guess they finally found the tooling for the Pacific's. Which would be a good thing.
They were keeping it hidden all these years so that they could re-introduce it especially for the 75th anniversary and hope people didn’t know it existed.
I wonder whose Pacific shows up first American Models or Flyonel? I have two on order and AM will put any road name on em you want. What was the MSRP on the flyer?
Gunny
@gunny posted:I wonder whose Pacific shows up first American Models or Flyonel? I have two on order and AM will put any road name on em you want. What was the MSRP on the flyer?
Gunny
Probably Lionel. The rumor mill indicated AM's having trouble with their die-caster and it's already 3 years late, which is rare for AM.
Rusty
@Ukaflyer posted:They were keeping it hidden all these years so that they could re-introduce it especially for the 75th anniversary and hope people didn’t know it existed.
Well, I have a Chicago and Alton set and a B&O USRA Pacific (assuming that is the loco we are talking about) like Rusty's. Being TMCC fitted with Seuthe smoke units, I am absolutely sure that my previously purchased ones are technically superseded by a new Legacy Pacific. But, owning two samples of the previous engine takes the shine off of the reissues for me. Maybe, one will be able to obtain parts for a partial upgrade of the older Pacific (and Mikado) steamers. I shall look at the new catalog with interest.
Bob
If I remember right the Flyer Legacy pacific MSRP was $599 although I may be "misremembering."
Didn't check if the EP5's were Legacy, I assumed they were Flyerchief as before.
As soon as I saw Pacific, my first thought was "I hope they changed out the sleuth unit." I'm not an expert on pacific variations but it sure looked like the TMCC version. B&O was one of the offerings.
Catalog had a lot of items, just nothing that rang my bell as I glanced at it.
@Bob Bubeck posted:Well, I have a Chicago and Alton set and a B&O USRA Pacific (assuming that is the loco we are talking about) like Rusty's. Being TMCC fitted with Seuthe smoke units, I am absolutely sure that my previously purchased ones are technically superseded by a new Legacy Pacific. But, owning two samples of the previous engine takes the shine off of the reissues for me. Maybe, one will be able to obtain parts for a partial upgrade of the older Pacific (and Mikado) steamers. I shall look at the new catalog with interest.
Bob
I have a Mikado with a failed Seuthe smoke unit. Still a very nice engine and I can live without the smoke, it wasn’t that impressive when it did work. Not sure if the 50/60 Hz was a problem as the sound is all screwed up as well, known problem at the time.
I have a Mikado with a failed Seuthe smoke unit. Still a very nice engine and I can live without the smoke, it wasn’t that impressive when it did work. Not sure if the 50/60 Hz was a problem as the sound is all screwed up as well, known problem at the time
Hopefully they squeezed one of currently used units into the smaller shell.
@richabr posted:If I remember right the Flyer Legacy pacific MSRP was $599 although I may be "misremembering."
Interesting, they MSRP'd at $649.99 back in 2008.
Rusty
I am still confused. Is that photo from the new catalog or of an old engine? Can anybody confirm it is the old tooling or did they make new.
I was emailing about the Pacific with Ryan Kunkle today after the first notice here and he said he would not comment till the catalog was released.
Interesting, they MSRP'd at $649.99 back in 2008
Hopefully I didn't misremember.
Thought I would remember when I left the store but after the long drive home and household BS, 
I am still confused. Is that photo from the new catalog or of an old engine? Can anybody confirm it is the old tooling or did they make new
It's not really a photo, it's the type of images used in all the catalogs. Difficult to tell without an actual comparison of catalogs.
It is this engine pictured below. It is a "light" Pacific #6-48061, from the Lionel 2008 Vol.2 catalog. Catalog price was $649.99. These are TMCC with Seuthe smoke units. Go to Carl Tuvesons web site, he has an off the shelf mod to retrofit an MTH fan driven smoke unit, 4 chuffs/revolution and cruise control. These are very nice engines, equal in detail to the Y-3. This and the Mikado were made from all new tooling. There has not been a Legacy pacific made to date.
@richabr posted:I am still confused. Is that photo from the new catalog or of an old engine? Can anybody confirm it is the old tooling or did they make new
It's not really a photo, it's the type of images used in all the catalogs. Difficult to tell without an actual comparison of catalogs.
Lionel in the past used images of the O Gauge version with the third rail photoshopped out or Flyer track photoshopped in...
I can wait a week. They're not going to be produced any faster because of a catalog leak.
Rusty
Here is a picture of 5213 on my turntable. I have one of all the cataloged TMCC Pacifics and Mikados, all modified by Carl Tuveson.
I did not realize the tooling for these engines was "lost." It would be nice if these engines were re-released with Legacy, elctrocouplers, fan driven smoke etc.
@AmFlyer posted:I did not realize the tooling for these engines was "lost." It would be nice if these engines were re-released with Legacy, elctrocouplers, fan driven smoke etc.
That was the explanation given when a Southern passenger set with the Pacific was cancelled about 10-12 years ago.
Rusty
Thanks, I always learn something new.
I have the AM Southern Crescent passenger set pulled by the AM Pacific. Probably do not need a second Southern set at this point. However I will buy any new Legacy steam engines made.
These are nice engines, now I am excited to see the catalog.
Here are two pictures. One shows the engine pulling away from a station, fan driven smoke makes a major difference. The other one is the NYC (it is the Mikado version) sitting in front of a Santa Fe Y-3. The detailing is excellent on these engines from 15 years ago.
If this is correct (And I have no reason to believe it is not), what a disappointment. No new tooling. No bringing back a Gilbert item from the past or even one they were going to build and didn’t.
I expected something really special for the 75th.
sigh
—Rocco—
Besides the list on the top of this thread there is a big 75th Anniversary set with a Pacific Legacy engine. The list price is well over $1,000 (Maybe $1,400). I don’t know how many cars are in the set.
—Rocco—
@Rocco posted:If this is correct (And I have no reason to believe it is not), what a disappointment. No new tooling. No bringing back a Gilbert item from the past or even one they were going to build and didn’t.
I expected something really special for the 75th.
sigh
—Rocco—
I was hoping for a reissue of the 933 boxcar with a big 75 on the side...
Tom Stoltz
in Maine
I was hoping for a reissue of the 933 boxcar with a big 75 on the side...
There is an anniversary gold colored boxcar if that floats your boat.
@Rocco posted:If this is correct (And I have no reason to believe it is not), what a disappointment. No new tooling. No bringing back a Gilbert item from the past or even one they were going to build and didn’t.
I expected something really special for the 75th.
sigh
—Rocco—
I don't think the current regime is well versed in A. C. Gilbert lore.
Rusty
Link American Flyer catalog video HO and S Gauge: https://youtu.be/YcwCFy3w1bk start at 2.22
Nice video. I will be buying the new legacy Pacific. Overall not bad. They seen to be focusing on what sells.
$699 on the Legacy Pacific; did the scale Mikado use the same shell as the Pacific?
749 for the john bull set, pretty cool
The Legacy Pacifics in the new catalog are completely different than the TMCC Pacifics from the 2005 timeframe.
I believe the basic shell of the TMCC Pacifics is the same as the shell for the TMCC Light Mikados.
Flyer starts around 2 min 27 seconds. Guy presenting doesn't have a clue.
The "boundless journey" definitely has boundaries.
Rusty
@Rusty Traque posted:Yep, although it was the other way around as the Mikado came out first.
Rusty
The Berkshire/Pacific/most likely the Mikado down the road are some positives for S scale folks. I have doubts that Lionel will revive the old Flyer Hudson and K-5 which are NYC and PRR specific. The USRA steam engines can be painted for a large number of roads without having to go fantasy. With tooling so expensive my hunch is if Lionel produces more S gauge steam it will be scale sized capable of navigating Gilbert sized curves. A scale version of the USRA 0-6-0 or 0-8-0 (hello Nickel Plate Road!) are a couple more steam locomotives that a lot of railroads owned.
@MTN posted:The USRA steam engines can be painted for a large number of roads without having to go fantasy.
Oddly enough, they are fantasy paint schemes. (But at least they're not outrageously painted...) Only the Atlantic Coast Line, Baltimore & Ohio and Louisville & Nashville bought USRA Light Pacific's. Only other roads that bought what are known as "copies," purchased after the USRA was dissolved, were the Grand Trunk Western and Mobile and Ohio (merged later into the GM&O.)
No other roads bought USRA Light Pacific's or copies.
Now, the USRA Light Mikado: That was a locomotive purchased by a pretty good number of railroads.
Rusty
I have the Blue Comet set and that is a beautiful pacific and train. 
@AmFlyer posted:The Legacy Pacifics in the new catalog are completely different than the TMCC Pacifics from the 2005 timeframe.
Sorry Tom. The Legacy Pacific's are the same as the earlier Pacific's, but with Legacy added.
Rusty
Good news if they are, but the catalog illustrations in that video made the New Legacy Pacifics look much less detailed.
While it's nice to have the Pacific's back and the Army cars appear well executed, there's nothing of real interest to me. I already have the FlyerChief NH EP-5 on order from the last catalog.
The catalog certainly doesn't live up to the hype from the NASG. It will be interesting on how the upcoming video spins it.
Rusty
Have they slapped Santa Fe on the side of them?
@Rusty Traque posted:Yep, although it was the other way around as the Mikado came out first.
Rusty
Are the coal loads on these molded in or do they lift out?
@Jacobpaul81 posted:Have they slapped Santa Fe on the side of them?
Are the coal loads on these molded in or do they lift out?
The coal loads were molded. The catalog doesn't indicate that's changed.
Yes, Santa Fe is one of the available roads as 3415. 3415 is alive and steaming in Abilene, Kansas.
Rusty
@DL&W Pete posted:
Just some rolling stock and the same passenger cars
I was wondering if there'd be an ATSF fantasy scheme. Technically, this isn't a bad base for ATSF modelers - pre-1947. I don't know what year 3415 was rebuilt but the class was pretty USRA-like until they were rebuilt. Even had 40 coal burners in the early years - though my guess they were all Oil burners by 1940.
This was the last class of Pacifics bought by the Santa Fe and like so much of the railroad's stud, came from Baldwin. Similar to the USRA's Heavy Pacific in its tube and flue counts but fitted with a grate close in size to the USRA's Light Pacific and delivered with drivers close in size to the latter, these engines clearly reflected a relatively conservative approach on the part of head of motive power John Purcell. Worley (p.252) commented "...they were, truth to tell, quite ordinary post World War I Pacifics, just as average as such a locomotive could become."
Forty were delivered as coal burners and were later converted to oil burning, while the last ten burned oil from the beginning.
During the first fifteen or so years of service, the class saw few changes. A couple of engines were retrofitted with thermic syphons, Elesco feed water heaters were installed in many engines, and some were fitted with cast steel cylinders, but the only class-wide difference over the years was the trailing of a tender that carried 20,000 US gallons (75,700 litres) of water. The oil burners' tenders had 7,000 gallons of fuel oil (26,495 litres).
Then all but six of the class were completely rebuilt beginning in 1936; see Locobase 15875.
Locobase 124 shows the 3400 class as delivered. The entry notes that the Santa Fe changed little in these engines for almost 20 years after they entered service. But beginning in June 1936, the railroad essentially rebuilt almost the entire class. Although fewer and shorter small tubes fit in the new boiler, the flue count remained the same. The firebox, which now burned oil in all engines, added AA security circulators and a short combustion chamber. A Commonwealth cast-steel bed cast integrally with the cylinders supported higher axle loadings and taller Boxpok drivers turning in Timken roller bearings.
After their makeover, the last of which was completed in 1947, the class served the Kansas City-La Junta, Newton (Kan)-Galveston (Tex), and Newton-Clovis (NM) divisions until their retirements in the mid-1950s.
The 15.5" length is the same as the older TMCC engines. The new catalog lists 27" minimum radius. I wonder what changed, the previous engines run on 20"radius.
@Rusty Traque posted:The coal loads were molded. The catalog doesn't indicate that's changed.
Yes, Santa Fe is one of the available roads as 3415. 3415 is alive and steaming in Abilene, Kansas.
Rusty
No doubt! As a kid, dad made it a point to visit the park ATSF steamers. Hence my obsession. I've climbed all over 3415. =)
@Jacobpaul81 posted:I was wondering if there'd be an ATSF fantasy scheme. Technically, this isn't a bad base for ATSF modelers - pre-1947. I don't know what year 3415 was rebuilt but the class was pretty USRA-like until they were rebuilt. Even had 40 coal burners in the early years - though my guess they were all Oil burners by 1940.
I don't have a problem with the fantasy schemes as presented. Only 5 railroads had USRA Light Pacific's or "copies," those built after the USRA was dissolved. ACL, B&O, L&N had originals, GTW and M&O (along with ACL and L&N) had copies. The decorations are accurate enough for similar locomotives of the various railroads.
At least there's no "Black Bonnet" for the Santa Fe like on their O Scale 2-10-10-2...
I would be cautious about the Great Northern, however. Lionel's last two O gauge locomotives had an almost electric avocado green on the boilers rather than a proper Glacier Green.
Rusty
@AmFlyer posted:The 15.5" length is the same as the older TMCC engines. The new catalog lists 27" minimum radius. I wonder what changed, the previous engines run on 20"radius.
I doubt anything's changed.
Rusty
@Rusty Traque posted:At least there's no "Black Bonnet" for the Santa Fe like on their O Scale 2-10-10-2...
Rusty
I hadn't seen that til you mentioned it. Gross. A good reminder that Lionel is just a toy company pretending to make models.
Some plusses:
I imagine that most of the Pacifics will sell because they are Legacy steam, decent models, and will fit in with what folks are doing. The new Army rolling stock can be used with the US Pacific. Just the same, kinda pricey, and previous TMCC versions are available for sale out there for less $.
The Reading and Northern set is an interesting idea, but one would hope that they revisit the colors on the heavyweights and that the blue on the Pacific is done close to prototype. For this excursion train one requires more passenger cars and no baggage car. The pricing is wicked. Lionel is charging the customer another $700 MSRP for three heavyweights and a caboose!
However,
The commemorative American Flyer passenger train is expensive and (to these eyes) ghastly looking. A recreation of a classic Gilbert passenger set in an updated form and modern Legacy tech would have been a much better choice.
The rolling stock is more of the same. No new modern rolling stock to go with the modern SD70's and ES44's that are around in abundance.
Regrettably, another lost opportunity, IMHO.
Happy looking.
Bob
@Jacobpaul81 posted:I hadn't seen that til you mentioned it. Gross. A good reminder that Lionel is just a toy company pretending to make models.
Lionel is a company with the goal of making profits while selling model train products. If some of them have fantasy paint schemes, so be it. Why the constant bitter attitude toward the sale of items which others may like, and you can just choose to ignore? I guess you would have advised Joshua Cowan against releasing those "silly" Mickey Mouse and Donald Duck hand cars in the 1930's.
@RadioRon posted:I guess you would have advised Joshua Cowan against releasing those "silly" Mickey Mouse and Donald Duck hand cars in the 1930's.
The world of model railroading was considerably different in the 1930's.
Fortunately, the Black Warbonnet abomination 2-10-10-2 is in the O Gauge lineup so we S folks don't have to worry about it.
Don't worry, our carping won't stop Lionel from doing what they do to turn a buck. I'm surprised there isn't a "Girls Train" version of the 2-10-10-2. Yet...
Rusty
Swing and a miss....I really wanted to see a remake of any number of Gilbert era sets.
Ben
And....this must mean Lionel no longer has access to the K Line Big Boy tooling. Can’t think of a better time to throw that one back out there then now.
That's one reason Big L apparently will never understand the S gauge market. ACG set the standards high (for the times) in terms of scale when it came to engines and rolling stock. The operating accessories, not so much, although the sawmill and baggage smasher were more to scale--the other operating accessories were more left-overs from the O line, and were marketable to both AF and L and MarX owners. Where they missed out on the 75th, (IMHO) They could have done a redo of the 4014 with the challenger's trailing truck and tender, the two major "oopsies" of the original 4014 engines. A steamer with an oil fueled tender would have been a big "commemorative" piece--and the ATSF Pacific would have been a good choice for one (as would the 4014). Personally, I think a rework of the Northern with a daylight boiler & tender would have been a big hit. The other thing they missed on, AND they have the tooling for them--would have been some operating accessories; Sawmill, Oil Drum Loader. A Bell Danger signal would be a nice addition. A replica of the ACG demonstration radio broadcast Pullman car could have been done pretty much with just paint and lettering changes.
75th anniversary, SOO much could have been done with little tooling costs. . . . And it could have made money! At least we got some printed catalogs.
Frankly, the easy way out would have been with "Goldbonnet" PA's (there was a goldbonnet special event PA1 for a few weeks,) and replace the Santa Fe lettering with American Flyer on the nose and sides. Have them pulling a five car streamlined passenger set with gold window bands and put the names of notable Gilbert employees on the car name boards.
But, that's just me...
Rusty
Every year and catalog is the same. We all complain about what they didn't make that we wanted and hoped they would or what they are making is poorly done. I think that is why they don't listen to us.
In the past when I interviewed the people at Lionel about Flyer for the S Gaugian I heard, "If you ask 20 Flyer guys what they wanted you get 20 different answers." That was followed by, "We try to produce what we think will sell with the tooling costs we can afford."
They used to use a small secret committee of known Flyer people for suggestions. I know of a couple of these people and they haven't really met for several years. Well, there is always the next catalog.
Well, does this then confirm that all the discussions we have had in the past about the commitment from Lionel is actually true and that they are not listening to us at all.
It seems that they still have this perception that we are just like the three rail O gauge fraternity in that whatever they throw at us we will just lap it up and take whatever they think is the best thing.
It sounds like they need a new set of S gauge people to communicate with to get a grasp on which direction they should really be taking. This is for a combined Flyer people and the scale group as well so that both factions need to work together to get the best from Lionel.
I thought is was ask 20 Flyer guys and get 25 different answers...
Lionel folks actually attended the NASG convention in Oconomowoc WI back in 2003. They were proudly (and rightly) showing off component test shots for the new Mikado. They also asked serious questions and had a survey with what they could do for S Gaugers and Scalers. There was talk of duplicating some of the Scale O products in S. It looked like they really wanted to listen.
Of course, that was several management changes ago.
Rusty
@Rusty Traque posted:I thought is was ask 20 Flyer guys and get 25 different answers...
Lionel folks actually attended the NASG convention in Oconomowoc WI back in 2003. They were proudly (and rightly) showing off component test shots for the new Mikado. They also asked serious questions and had a survey with what they could do for S Gaugers and Scalers. There was talk of duplicating some of the Scale O products in S. It looked like they really wanted to listen.
Of course, that was several management changes ago.
Rusty
So what went wrong?
@Ukaflyer posted:So what went wrong?
Multiple management changes and employee turnover over the years.
Rusty
I may be odd man out, but I am pleasantly surprised. I was not expecting a new Legacy offering. I will be ordering the NYC and perhaps the USRA. Yes, there are other locos I would have preferred, esp. a new scale wheeled option 6 axle diesel like the elusive SD40-2, but I had no expectation of them investing in new tooling for our small market. So thank you Lionel. I'll be delighted to add these to my layout, esp. having experienced the fantastic Legacy Berkshire which is now the best non-brass steamer that I own.
@Rusty Traque posted:The world of model railroading was considerably different in the 1930's.
Fortunately, the Black Warbonnet abomination 2-10-10-2 is in the O Gauge lineup so we S folks don't have to worry about it.
Don't worry, our carping won't stop Lionel from doing what they do to turn a buck. I'm surprised there isn't a "Girls Train" version of the 2-10-10-2. Yet...
Rusty
They are working on obtaining the marketing rights to Powerpuff Girls. 
I for one am pleased to see the amount of new S gauge items in the catalog. Not all are of interest to me but I will buy two of the Legacy Pacifics, even though I already have some modified TMCC versions.
In some ways S gauge is easier for product planning than O gauge, everything is made to scale except some passenger cars that are 10' short. There is no semi scale, no scale and full scale like in O gauge. The only question is which control system and how much separately applied detail. Lionel even adapted the Legacy system for us so it will run with DCC. In the new catalog Lionel has a first for their S gauge line, engines that will not run on 20" radius track. If these sell well maybe it will open up opportunities for other new engines as well. Lionel also invested in a full line of close to scale FasTrack for S gauge operators.
I am sure Lionel knows what would sell in S based on what sells in O gauge. I am sure they know we want Legacy Hudsons, K5's, 0-8-0's and SD40-2's. All those engines would have a lot of upfront costs, might never happen.
When I go into my train room and boot up the layout I never focus on what is not there. I select engines and cars for operation right then. I have more Legacy and TMCC engines than I can run in a week. I am also thankful that Lionel is including the IR interface to the LCS Sensor Track in all new Legacy engines. Looking at the Legacy system, the Layout Control System and the ZW-L transformers to power everything, there are a lot of Lionel products that are fully compatible with S gauge and add to the enjoyment and viability of S gauge.
The typo I see is the reading & Northern set for $1,400.00 One engine and four cars! I doubt they make em and if they do look for deep discounts.
Gunny
@AmFlyer posted:I am sure Lionel knows what would sell in S based on what sells in O gauge. I am sure they know we want Legacy Hudsons, K5's, 0-8-0's and SD40-2's. All those engines would have a lot of upfront costs, might never happen.
And this is the problem, they align what people want in the O gauge world and translate it to the S gauge world thinking this is what we want. How many people have said that this doesn’t work and they still don’t listen.
I can’t remember the number of years that so many people have said why don’t they produce the SD40. This just proves that they really are not listening.
Perhaps the truth is that they don’t wish to promote S because if it did become a growing sector then it will eat into the O market. At the end of the day they would be in a win win situation but perhaps they don’t see this as an advantage in sales.
@AmFlyer posted:I am sure Lionel knows what would sell in S based on what sells in O gauge. I am sure they know we want Legacy Hudsons, K5's, 0-8-0's and SD40-2's. All those engines would have a lot of upfront costs, might never happen.
I assume by Hudson, you mean J-3. I'd be a no on all 4. And there lies the rub - we don't all want the same things - no matter what scale we are in. 
Chuck, if they will run on 20"R track, and their TMCC predecessors do, it is more than a typo because it appears in multiple places. It does not matter to me because I only have 30" and larger radius track. Perhaps somewhere in the product planning cycle the minimum radius changed and it was missed in the copy editing.
I was just running my TMCC NYC Light Mikado with a long string of freight cars behind it. Will be nice to have a Legacy Light Pacific version even though the NYC never had that engine.
There are very few Legacy and Vision line O gauge engines I would not buy. Maybe Lionel could start with the Legacy B6 Sb in S gauge, then the PRR 6-4-4-6 Torpedo and then a Reading T1. An H1 would also be nice.
Yes, I meant the J3. I completely accept each of us has a different list. The question Lionel must answer is which new items, if any, can be profitable in S gauge. Perhaps there are none because of high development costs and a relatively small list of purchasers.
What sells in O is not necessarily what sells in S. What sells to the Highrail folks is not necessarily what sells to the scale folks. HOWEVER, there is a lot of crossover in there that will sell. If you look at the O crowd, and the number of manufacturers who made and sold out of SP Daylight Northerns, I think it is prudent to say that a Daylight Northern in S would sell very well IF it were close enough to scale to be easily modified to scale. It could even sell to "modern" folks as it is prototypically run on modern railroads! Hmm, same thing could be said of the NW J engine, AND the UP 4014--and to an extent, the UP 844.
But, as I said, they missed the boat without doing some accessories, and I like Rusty's suggestion of the golden PAs and cars. There's one very popular accessory they still haven't done; the mail pickup car, which could easily be done with their streamline baggage car shell.
Now why the Pacific sets are listed for $1,400+ and the Polar Express sets are $400+ is beyond me; how do you justify the $1K price difference? Perhaps they hope to amortize the entire tooling costs in one run. . . . .
Of course, we are talking about a diminishing marketplace too. . . .
@AmFlyer posted:Chuck, if they will run on 20"R track, and their TMCC predecessors do, it is more than a typo because it appears in multiple places. It does not matter to me because I only have 30" and larger radius track. Perhaps somewhere in the product planning cycle the minimum radius changed.
It is odd, but I can't imagine that they would exclude so many customers who have traditional Flyer curve radii nor that they would change it that much from the TMCC version.
@Ukaflyer posted:And this is the problem, they align what people want in the O gauge world and translate it to the S gauge world thinking this is what we want. How many people have said that this doesn’t work and they still don’t listen.
I can’t remember the number of years that so many people have said why don’t they produce the SD40. This just proves that they really are not listening.
Perhaps the truth is that they don’t wish to promote S because if it did become a growing sector then it will eat into the O market. At the end of the day they would be in a win win situation but perhaps they don’t see this as an advantage in sales.
100% Agree. When I look at the NASG list of produced locomotives - it's basically a list of the roads and models I see mass produced in every scale (Except the AM 2900 class Northern - that took some balls!). The roads reflect that with most attention paid to SP, UP, NYC, and the PA.
The current approach is certainly based-in how it's always been done operations - where O and S were in competition. Now that S is basically in the hands of Lionel, you'd think they'd want to control who goes where - selling S to a specific group and O to a specific group. Otherwise, why even bother producing both? They are "close enough" to one another - that producing everything in both can't be financially viable.
I could envision a targeted approach - producing western roads in S and eastern roads in O. I mean, that's already the case - other than SP / UP - HO tends to be more popular for the West, O for the east.
The problem is. Lionel could let this message board decide what they make for American flyer and we would never be able to reach an agreement.
@Ukaflyer posted:I can’t remember the number of years that so many people have said why don’t they produce the SD40. This just proves that they really are not listening.
23 years!!! 
Cancelled before the ink was dry on the brochure. The image was a photoshopped Athearn HO model.
@AmFlyer posted:Chuck, if they will run on 20"R track, and their TMCC predecessors do, it is more than a typo because it appears in multiple places.
Cut-'n-Paste-itis. The simple fact is Lionel won't make any Flyer that won't run on R20. How many times have the catalogs stated the non-existent "S36" curves?
Heck, even AM's HiRail Northern will do R20. It doesn't look very happy about it, but it will do it.
@Former Member posted:Now why the Pacific sets are listed for $1,400+ and the Polar Express sets are $400+ is beyond me; how do you justify the $1K price difference? Perhaps they hope to amortize the entire tooling costs in one run. . . . .
I seriously wonder if they are actually cranking the S version out at the factory every year or if they're just upgrading the electronics in old stock.
Rusty
This message board probably reflects only a small percentage of S gaugers. Of all the S gaugers I associate with, most are strictly Flyer guys, a few dabble with Lionel S and NONE are familiar with this forum. The catalog will never satisfy everyone as everybody wants their favorite things to be produced no matter how obscure the item or roadname. I have my ideas what I'd like to see, some of which is mentioned here, but considering that they would require all new tooling and expense, so far NG. Eastern roadnames have always seemed to be the most popular. The B6b and 0-8-0 boilers are probably too small for the legacy package. I think I could be happy with one new Legacy offering per year.
@richabr posted:This message board probably reflects only a small percentage of S gaugers. Of all the S gaugers I associate with, most are strictly Flyer guys, a few dabble with Lionel S and NONE are familiar with this forum. The catalog will never satisfy everyone as everybody wants their favorite things to be produced no matter how obscure the item or roadname. I have my ideas what I'd like to see, some of which is mentioned here, but considering that they would require all new tooling and expense, so far NG. Eastern roadnames have always seemed to be the most popular. The B6b and 0-8-0 boilers are probably too small for the legacy package. I think I could be happy with one new Legacy offering per year.
Population = Sales. No question. The brass importers are mostly based in San Francisco - so Southern Pacific gets heavy treatment in all scales. UP as well. UP benefits from being the trans-con - but let's face it, UP's popularity is the Big Boy. The Daylight helps SP's cause - as does it's presence in Houston, Dallas, and LA. PA and NYC and to a lesser extent B&O and Nickle Plate are popular cause the heavily populated areas they crossed - running from large eastern coastal cities to St. Louis or Chicago.
From Scale to Scale - AT&SF is basically the Passenger warbonnet - and nothing else.
Other large roads, like the Rock Island, Frisco, MKT, Burlington, Great Northern, L&N, Southern, etc are bascially grabbing at the scraps - the occasional USRA or similar model- what have you.
But if you make the same stuff from scale to scale - eventually some scales will die. And then others will die. And eventually, the only people who are left are Flyer / O-27 operators and fans of the Penn, NYC, UP, and SP...
Oh wait, that's what's left...
Well, there are lots of factors and changes at Lionel over the years, but if you think about it we are lucky that Lionel has stuck with Flyer. They have made tons more product than Gilbert ever did and for over 40 years when Gilbert lasted for almost 20 years.
I remember when Lionel started with 3 freight cars and I couldn't wait to get them. Then there were the first sets and I ordered them from Charles Ro. I still have the receipts. At first I had to buy every new product they offered every year. Finally I had to give up that practice as the number of products grew every year.
Sometimes we need to put things in perspective, we would be still running mostly old modified Gilbert had not Lionel brought back Flyer. American Models and S Helper probably came into being because Lionel kept the market active and buying S.
Yep, there is always the next catalog and the products we hope they will make.
Well, I found my Pacific. I will get the B&O version, that's the only engine with gold lettering. That's a big if, they still have to fix my berkshire front pilot wheel.
The prices sure rocketed up on the Legacy stuff in the new catalog! The USRA Pacific locomotives at $1500? I guess pricing is totally unchecked at this point!
I am quite sure the catalog offers nothing in the way of locomotives for me. The lack of quality control and poor after market service sends my train dollars else where.
Gunny
The Legacy Pacific engine by itself is $699.99. I suppose that is not too bad considering back in 2008 the TMCC version was $649.99. I plan to order two of them, likely the major suppliers will discount the price somewhat.
Not sure what catalog you're looking at, but the one I'm looking at says just the engine is $1499.99. I have the Legacy K4 Pacific from the 2011 Catalog, it listed at $899.99. The addition of BT isn't enough to make me want to pay close to double for a similar engine. 
They're prices have gone up significantly over the last 2 years, but I think we all have to remember that without a big competitor like MTH, Lionel's prices will continue to escalate. They have a total domination on the market now. The shame of it is I always thought for the last ten years that Lionel's steamers have pulled away from MTH in that their sound quality was better and the whistle steam came equipped on almost all of their engines. But, MTH's steamers from the last year have caught up in a huge way with authentic sound and whistle steam coming standard. Not only that, but MTH's engines are about 350-400 dollars less than Lionels at this point. I was just telling my LHS today that if MTH was still in business today I truly believe Lionel would be in trouble.
I am looking at the 2021 American Flyer S gauge Catalog posted above in this thread. Are you perhaps looking at an O gauge engine?
@gunrunnerjohn posted:Not sure what catalog you're looking at, but the one I'm looking at says just the engine is $1499.99. I have the Legacy K4 Pacific from the 2011 Catalog, it listed at $899.99. The addition of BT isn't enough to make me want to pay close to double for a similar engine.
John,
I, too, am looking at the catalog listed above in this thread. The price you see is for the set.....
Sorry they're kind of blurry. Best I could grab from the video.
The locos by themselves are NOT $1500
@AmFlyer posted:I am looking at the 2021 American Flyer S gauge Catalog posted above in this thread. Are you perhaps looking at an O gauge engine?
Ah ha, looking at the wrong end of the catalog! Now it makes more sense.
@gunrunnerjohn posted:Ah ha, looking at the wrong end of the catalog!
I was getting worried there, John. You had me checking my eyesight
@A.J. posted:They're prices have gone up significantly over the last 2 years, but I think we all have to remember that without a big competitor like MTH, Lionel's prices will continue to escalate. They have a total domination on the market now. The shame of it is I always thought for the last ten years that Lionel's steamers have pulled away from MTH in that their sound quality was better and the whistle steam came equipped on almost all of their engines. But, MTH's steamers from the last year have caught up in a huge way with authentic sound and whistle steam coming standard. Not only that, but MTH's engines are about 350-400 dollars less than Lionels at this point. I was just telling my LHS today that if MTH was still in business today I truly believe Lionel would be in trouble.
Wrong forum. MTH has not been much competition to Lionel American Flyer. 2 catalogues in 7 years and the products from the second catalogue are only just now being delivered. Also, there are no MTH steamers in S.
@gunrunnerjohn posted:Ah ha, looking at the wrong end of the catalog!
Well thank goodness it wasn't the 3 Rail Scale forum or you'd be in some hotwater.
@Chuck K posted:Wrong forum. MTH has not been much competition to Lionel American Flyer. 2 catalogues in 7 years and the products from the second catalogue are only just now being delivered. Also, there are no MTH steamers in S.
It is the fault of the subject line that O Gauge comments show up here.
There is no indication that it is about S Scale/Gauge. I tend to search out S related posts first and passed over this tread initially because of that.
"2021 Lionel Catalog Steam" can cover everything from HO to the el-cheapo G gauge sets in the 2021 catalog.
This part of the forum lies deep withing the realm of the O gauge community. We must make the "S" distinction in the subject line if we don't want comments relating to O Gauge. I mentioned earlier that the subject line be amended to add either "Flyer" or "S Gauge." Obviously, that did not happen.
This is the responsibility of the OP of any S discussion to indicate somehow in the subject line, particularly with a generic topic like steam locomotives.
Back to our regularly scheduled discussion...
Rusty
@MartyE posted:Well thank goodness it wasn't the 3 Rail Scale forum or you'd be in some hotwater.
Dodged a bullet there.
@Former Member posted:I find it interesting that any idea with new tooling is "too expensive." I can remember when ANY new large locomotive in S was considered "too expensive" and then there was the Big Boy done mostly with existing tooling as a "toe in the water" test--and it sold out! All of a sudden S was worth doing other large engines, some really nice ones too!! But now, once again, "too expensive." "Wouldn't sell." Its kind of a self induced conclusion that the scale is dying.
The Big Boy has one thing going for it: Mystique. It's a big honkin' engine that most everybody is in love with. Had the K-Line tooling not be available, I doubt there would've been one. I will still carp about it being oversized and mis-proportioned for S, but it did open the door for the Challenger.
However, for some reason it appears the Challenger didn't do so well because they were offered in five new roadnames (four of them fantasy) the following year. I would hazard to guess they were available because orders for the first run didn't meet expectations. I don't think Lionel fired up the assembly line to make more for 2011.
The Y3 (arguably the best Flyer locomotive made post-Gilbert, IMHO) appears to have sold well. Even some Scalers ponied up the extra 500 bucks to have them converted to scale. Although had the conversions not been offered by a third party, those sales wouldn't have happened.
So, now we get a platoon of 6 separate sale Pacific's. One prototype (B&O,) one quasi-prototype (USRA. Should have the purchasing railroad on the sided of the coal bunker, but I won't really ding the lack of one. An intrepid modeller could add that with decals.) and four tastefully done fantasy roads (AT&SF, D&RGW, GN and NYC.)
Then there's the two set locomotives: One fantasy (Anniversary) and one prototype (Reading & Northern.)
The Anniversary Pacific is in eye of the beholder territory. The R&N will depend on color accuracy, but both may fall victim to the set prices.
So, what can we expect in the future? Don't know. But if Lionel still has the Mikado drive tooling, we may see those in the near future.
Rusty
@Rusty Traque posted:So, what can we expect in the future? Don't know. But if Lionel still has the Mikado drive tooling, we may see those in the near future.
Rusty
The Mikado is a great engine, however I would balk at buying another ‘new’ one because of the unwanted electronics I am forced to buy. I run DC and see no need for all the fancy stuff that has to be included just to get it to run on 10 different systems. I believe I have one of the first Y-3s reprogramed to run on DC and I am very disappointed with its ‘work around’ performance. You sort of never know what it’s going to do. That is why with any Flyonel engine I have the first thing is to take the boards out. So $700.00 for a $450.00 engine with the difference being unless electronics? Easy – no thanks.
Tom Stoltz
in Maine
@Tom Stoltz posted:The Mikado is a great engine, however I would balk at buying another ‘new’ one because of the unwanted electronics I am forced to buy. I run DC and see no need for all the fancy stuff that has to be included just to get it to run on 10 different systems. I believe I have one of the first Y-3s reprogramed to run on DC and I am very disappointed with its ‘work around’ performance. You sort of never know what it’s going to do. That is why with any Flyonel engine I have the first thing is to take the boards out. So $700.00 for a $450.00 engine with the difference being unless electronics? Easy – no thanks.
Tom Stoltz
in Maine
I remember that adventure. When I did testing I discovered that reliable DC operation on the Y3 depended solely on the power pack.
But I don't see anyone else with the potential to produce USRA Mikado's right now. AM's having trouble bringing out the Vandebuilt tender Pacific and apparently has no interest in making a Mikado chassis to place under the Pacific's boiler (which would make a fairly nice, bare-bones USRA Heavy Mikado.)
Rusty
@Rusty Traque posted:It is the fault of the subject line that O Gauge comments show up here.
There is no indication that it is about S Scale/Gauge.......
This is the responsibility of the OP of any S discussion to indicate somehow in the subject line, particularly with a generic topic like steam locomotive
Agreed. I learned that from you when I first joined this forum.
@Rusty Traque posted:So, now we get a platoon of 6 separate sale Pacific's. One prototype (B&O,) one quasi-prototype (USRA. Should have the purchasing railroad on the sided of the coal bunker, but I won't really ding the lack of one. An intrepid modeller could add that with decals.) and four tastefully done fantasy roads (AT&SF, D&RGW, GN and NYC.)
I did my research on prototypical light pacifics yesterday after seeing comments in this thread about the fantasy schemes in the catalogue. I was delighted to find some great photos of several of L&N's. It looks like the catalogued 'USRA' version will be a great candidate for conversion to L&N or one of the very few other prototype roads like ACL or GTW with a little bit of paint work and some new decals. To my knowledge there has never been an RTR L&N steamer made in S (and believe me I scoured the NASG page looking when came into S), so I will get at least one and perhaps two of these USRA's and will soon have my first L&N steamer or two with just a wee bit of modification. I just wanted to point this out in case there are any L&N, ACL or GTW fans starving for an S scale steamer.
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