2021 Lionel Catalog S Gauge Steam

@Chuck K posted:

I did my research on prototypical light pacifics yesterday after seeing comments in this thread about the fantasy schemes in the catalogue.  I was delighted to find some great photos of several of L&N's. It looks like the catalogued 'USRA' version will be a great candidate for conversion to L&N or one of the very few other prototype roads like ACL or GTW with a little bit of paint work and some new decals. To my knowledge there has never been an RTR L&N steamer made in S (and believe me I scoured the NASG page looking when came into S), so I will get at least one and perhaps two of these USRA's and will soon have my first L&N steamer or two with just a wee bit of modification. I just wanted to point this out in case there are any L&N, ACL or GTW fans starving for an S scale steamer.

Lionel did make a Flyer ACL Pacific back in 2008.

Rusty

Rusty, what were the four fantasy schemes for American Flyer Challenger? On the NASG website I looked up the models offered by Lionel (Clinchfield, Denver and Rio Grande Western, Great Northern, Northern Pacific, Western Pacific, and Spokane/Portland & Seattle) and checked the history of the Challenger 4-6-6-4 class, and it appears that all of these railroads did own Challengers. Many did not like them and traded them off to other railroads as soon as they could, but they did run them. Or did Lionel take some liberties with the sizes of driving wheels and graphics from real life? I'm curious because I thought Lionel did a good job with these after recovering from the Big Boy.

Terry

@richabr posted:

Just stopped by my LHS and took a quick look, as I didn't have much time, at the new catalog.

A suggestion.  Rename the thread to say 2021 Lionel Catalog S-Scale Steam.

That will clearly identify which end of the catalog this thread pertains to and stop dummies like me from posting about the O-scale stuff.

As the thread starter, you can edit the Subject.

@TOKELLY posted:

Rusty, what were the four fantasy schemes for American Flyer Challenger? On the NASG website I looked up the models offered by Lionel (Clinchfield, Denver and Rio Grande Western, Great Northern, Northern Pacific, Western Pacific, and Spokane/Portland & Seattle) and checked the history of the Challenger 4-6-6-4 class, and it appears that all of these railroads did own Challengers. Many did not like them and traded them off to other railroads as soon as they could, but they did run them. Or did Lionel take some liberties with the sizes of driving wheels and graphics from real life? I'm curious because I thought Lionel did a good job with these after recovering from the Big Boy.

Terry

They did own Challengers, just not the same design as the UP and Rio Grande (which the D&RGW got by way of the War Production Board, then the Rio Grande later sold them to the Clinchfield.)

That classifies the other four as fantasy in my book.  Just like the Flyerchief Northern's in the 2020 V1 catalog.  Yes all 6 roads had 4-8-4's but they are fantasy paint jobs on a distinctively UP locomotive.

I'm not criticizing the Challengers, (or the Northern's) at least Lionel didn't give them screwy paint schemes...

BTW: GN bought their two 4-6-6-4's from the SP&S in 1946, then sold them back in 1950 and the SP&S scrapped them in 1960.  NP, and WP didn't sell their Challengers, they held on to them until they were retired and scrapped.  NP scrapped theirs between 1955 and 1959.  WP scrapped their 4-6-6-4's in 1952.

Rusty

Thanks for those details, Rusty. I knew about the D&RGW, but I wasn't sure about the others. Lionel does take a lot of heat for failing to apply railroad-specific details to locomotives, and this is particularly difficult for steam locomotives that were typically "custom" jobs for each road. When Lionel does a surprisingly good job with road-specific (and probably expensive) modifications such as on the first issue of the U33Cs, those efforts go unnoticed. I hope their marketing group does not give up on S despite chronic the griping but, instead, continues to seek advice and recommendations. Maybe a small committee of "experts" from the NASG (National Association of S Gaugers) could take surveys, fight among themselves, and provide some information that Lionel could assess. My guess is that the excellence of the U33Cs, Y-3s, and improvements in the SD70ACes and ES44ACs was partly the result of "consultants" who are or were members of the NASG.

Terry

As the thread starter, you can edit the Subject.

I'd be glad to change it but how?

Go to the first post of the thread, hover over the gear and this menu will pop up.

Click on Edit Topic, and you'll see this screen.  Note that I'm editing one I posted so I can illustrate the title edit.

Great suggestion Gun Runner John!

@TOKELLY posted:

My guess is that the excellence of the U33Cs, Y-3s, and improvements in the SD70ACes and ES44ACs was partly the result of "consultants" who are or were members of the NASG.

Terry

If they only they offered scale wheels for the latest batches of U33C's.  The wheels made available for the first run won't work because of a gearing change.

I have friends that refuse to buy the SD70's and ES44's because the headlight is not in the nose.  Only NS and some UP's had the headlights on the cab up by the numberboards.  My friends feel that for the price Lionel's asking for them, they could at least move the headlights where the bulk of railroads have them.  I disagree with them, but they won't change their minds.  I figure we were lucky to have what we have.  If Lionel didn't try to jump on the UP and NS "Heritage Bandwagon," we probably wouldn't have modern diesels at all.

Rusty

Thanks Gunrunner.

Lionel does do some odd things now and then, such as cylindrical hoppers with misaligned scale wheels complete with the large American Flyer couplers. The latest U33Cs and U36Cs should have scale wheels as an option, as you said. The Y-3s could run on DC, but they didn't seem to know it until that was pointed out to them (the backup light on the tender is on in forward and off in reverse, though.) At the end of 2014 about 6.4% of all ES44ACs had the headlight between the numberboards, and I agree that Norfolk Southern's "Heritage Bandwagon" was all that Lionel was looking at then. Although it bothered me, I figured I could fake it a bit by fitting a BTS headlight with MV lenses into the rectangular depression meant for a nose light on the ES44AC.  It's held on only by GOOP glue so as not to damage the paint if I were to remove it. It doesn't light, but that locomotive trails the BNSF SD70ACe with the numberboard headlight and, unfortunately, a number for an SD70ACe with the nose light.

If it weren't for the misplaced headlight, the ES44AC locomotives would rank along the Y-3 and the Berkshire as American Flyer locomotives where Lionel got almost everything right. Since the Mikado nearly 15 years ago, Lionel has provided some very nice locomotives for the S gauge high-railer. With just a little more effort they could appeal to those who use scale track to run diesel locomotives.

@TOKELLY posted:

L Since the Mikado nearly 15 years ago, Lionel has provided some very nice locomotives for the S gauge high-railer. With just a little more effort they could appeal to those who use scale track to run diesel locomotives.

I figure once the stock of scale wheels for the SD70's and ES44's runs out at Lionel, that's the end of scale conversions for those Flyer loco's.

Rusty

Thank You for editing the header.

Curtis

Good morning,,

I am not an S scale person, as a matter of fact I run on original Gilbert track and rubber roadbed.

I am not looking for an argument with any of the others here on the forum, but just wondering. I have seen a number of S scale layouts illustrated and a few in person. I know a number of scalers do scratch building, something way beyond my capabilities, and looking at some of the photos of these layouts they are fantastic. My question is would it be possible for any of you who really want the locomotives with scale wheels to remachine the high rail wheelsets  from the big L to fit your desires? I realize these products are expensive as purchased now but, might this be a way to get more of what you want.

Just a thought from an American Flyer operator.

Ray

It is the time and cost of having to remove the wheels, machine them and refit them, especially for steam locomotives. Add this to the initial purchase cost and it is going to make it prohibitive to a lot of people. S Helper had the right idea on the diesels.

I suspect the art of the true scratch builders of years ago is not quite the same as today. People want to take something out of the box and expect it to meet all requirements and not do much to them. With high quality/detail comes a cost and somewhere has to be a compromise.

@Rayin"S" posted:

My question is would it be possible for any of you who really want the locomotives with scale wheels to remachine the high rail wheelsets  from the big L to fit your desires? I realize these products are expensive as purchased now but, might this be a way to get more of what you want.

Just a thought from an American Flyer operator.

Ray

@Ukaflyer posted:

It is the time and cost of having to remove the wheels, machine them and refit them, especially for steam locomotives. Add this to the initial purchase cost and it is going to make it prohibitive to a lot of people. S Helper had the right idea on the diesels.

Fred Rouse of the now pretty much defunct S Scale Locomotive and Supply offered a limited amount of scale conversions for the Y3.  Cost was $500.00 plus shipping.  An additional $75.00 got you the DCC code installed.

Rusty

@Rayin"S" posted:

My question is would it be possible for any of you who really want the locomotives with scale wheels to remachine the high rail wheelsets  from the big L to fit your desires?

Unfortunately the profile of a high rail wheel, esp. an AF one, is very different from one that meets the scale wheel std. So it is a matter of machining from scratch rather than modifying highrail wheels.  NWSL will make custom wheels, and they are currently making some to fit the U33c/36c based on the request of Rick Koch. I don't yet know what the cost will be.

@Chuck K posted:

Unfortunately the profile of a high rail wheel, esp. an AF one, is very different from one that meets the scale wheel std. So it is a matter of machining from scratch rather than modifying highrail wheels.  NWSL will make custom wheels, and they are currently making some to fit the U33c/36c based on the request of Rick Koch. I don't yet know what the cost will be.

However, when operating your trains, can you really see the difference between High-rail and scale wheelsets?  Or the difference in height of the rail?  The difference in height is about 1/32".

Tom Stoltz

in Maine

@Tom Stoltz posted:

However, when operating your trains, can you really see the difference between High-rail and scale wheelsets?  Or the difference in height of the rail?  The difference in height is about 1/32".

Tom Stoltz

in Maine

Well, yes, no and maybe.  While I posed a lot of my HiRail stuff on my former code 100 railroad, I certainly couldn't run them on it.

Although I'll admit in operation on larger rail, it does get difficult to notice.

When I ran a video taken at this train show in 2001 to a very detailed-oriented HO modeller, he didn't even notice the claw couplers until I pointed them out.   Even the AM's code 148 rail isn't that noticeable.

I am considering moving up to Fox Valley track whenever I get around to building a new layout.  It may be scale, it may be HiRail, it may be hybrid with the turnout mod.  Haven't decided.

Rusty

Regarding the statement “Ask 20 S Gauge people what they want and you will get 25 different answers” I believe the problem is with Lionel.  It’s true you can’t please everybody but you can find out what a majority of people were willing to buy.  For 2 years I did surveys here and with some user groups to find out the top 5 items in multiple categories (Engines, Cars, Track & Accessories) people want Lionel to make.  They were ranked and Lionel saw them.  It would make more sense to pull from those lists then make engines, cars and sets that no one asked for.  Better to please 50% of the people then 0% of the people.  If they don’t like what their customers came up with then offer us a list of 5 choices and see what we would be willing to buy.

—Rocco—

@Rusty Traque posted:

Well, yes, no and maybe.  While I posed a lot of my HiRail stuff on my former code 100 railroad, I certainly couldn't run them on it.

Although I'll admit in operation on larger rail, it does get difficult to notice.

Rusty

What is baffling with the Y3 is that the front and trailing wheels have the typical large flanges, while the driving wheels have a much lower profile. Why did they not make the front and trailing wheels to the same profile?

My Mikado has all its flanges with large flanges, so ther were consistent on this engine.

@Ukaflyer posted:

What is baffling with the Y3 is that the front and trailing wheels have the typical large flanges, while the driving wheels have a much lower profile. Why did they not make the front and trailing wheels to the same profile?

<snip>

Simple. So that one could back the engine through Gilbert turnouts in the thrown curved position.

Bob

Results of the Lionel product survey from last Fall:

The biggest thing that sticks out to me is the low number of votes. That is the problem IMHO. If you want an importer to do road specific details on an engine for example they would need to have quantities in the thousands. Scale Trains in HO does engines in runs reaching over 10 thousand depending on model. If you follow any of Jason Shron's (Rapido) videos he goes into great detail about what it takes to build trains overseas. I had a post on the S scale FB group about the S scale passenger cars that Scott at 3rd Rail/Golden Gate Depot wants to make and got ripped to shreds mostly due to the $1800 per set cost. He isn't close to having enough orders to go forward. Not enough S people, and not enough people willing to spend the money that these low volume runs will require.

It's purely economics. I'm glad Lionel found the Pacific tooling and has been able to fit Legacy. I want to know if they will have a fan driven smoke unit synched to 4 chuffs per revolution and Kadee coupler option. For the price increase over the Berkshire I would hope so.

I have converted the original Pacific to DCC with a TCS WowSound decoder and I'm pretty pleased with it. Having a Legacy version with synched smoke unit would be even better as Legacy is just more fun and easier to use IMHO.

@jonnyspeed posted:

Results of the Lionel product survey from last Fall:

The biggest thing that sticks out to me is the low number of votes. That is the problem IMHO.

Perhaps because they knew it wouldn't matter to Lionel?  I voted knowing I would not buy anything that has Legacy electronics in it.

Tom Stoltz

in Maine

@Bob Bubeck posted:

Simple. So that one could back the engine through Gilbert turnouts in the thrown curved position.

Bob

Has anyone tried to put lower profile wheels on one to see if this is a real problem every time or just intermittent?

Looks like I am going to dig my one out and have a play to see what happens

I voted in that survey fully prepared to purchase products if made. I also put in a reservation for a set of the GGD passenger cars.

Something seems a little off to me. There are an adequate number of S scale operators willing to pay $2,900 for a RR engine with DCC, and $2,600 just DC to enable tooling and manufacture. People are also paying $350 for RR REA cars. Why would the same group of S scale operators object so strongly to $1,800 for a set of scale passenger cars? The target market is not the Gilbert/Lionel S operators since the planned GGD cars will not run on 20" R track.

My old TMCC Pacifics have 4 chuffs with synched fan driven smoke. They are nice running and great looking engines.

@Tom Stoltz posted:

Perhaps because they knew it wouldn't matter to Lionel?  I voted knowing I would not buy anything that has Legacy electronics in it.

Tom Stoltz

in Maine

Well Tom, the top 3 are all Legacy engines so I'd say you are in the minority. All I can say is that Lionel is the only company bringing out new S products. If people don't buy WHAT they make, the WAY they make it, then you might as well say goodbye to new S products. Doesn't matter what I want or what you want, it's what they think they can sell. As Rusty has pointed out they don't always have a great grasp on what to make and have had some bigtime flops lately, but I give them credit because they have gotten better over time and the Legacy Berkshires are fantastic.

As it has been said... Ask 20 S modelers and you'll get 21 different answers because the first one will have changed their mind by the time you're done.

@AmFlyer posted:

I voted in that survey fully prepared to purchase products if made. I also put in a reservation for a set of the GGD passenger cars.

Something seems a little off to me. There are an adequate number of S scale operators willing to pay $2,900 for a RR engine with DCC, and $2,600 just DC to enable tooling and manufacture. People are also paying $350 for RR REA cars. Why would the same group of S scale operators object so strongly to $1,800 for a set of scale passenger cars? The target market is not the Gilbert/Lionel S operators since the planned GGD cars will not run on 20" R track.

My old TMCC Pacifics have 4 chuffs with synched fan driven smoke. They are nice running and great looking engines.

Need to correct you on a couple things Tom.

-TMCC AF Pacifics came with a Seuthe smoke unit, Not a fan driven smoke unit synched to the sounds.

-They had 2 chuffs per revolution not 4. Karl Tuveson has info on his website how to make them 4 chuffs by installing a new cam.

-The GGD passenger cars are being offered in Scale and Hi-Rail with BOTH scale length and shortie (AF compatible) length options.

Scott needs to sell ~900 cars to break even. I would guess significantly more to make enough profit to warrant going forward with the project. He isn't even close to the break-even MOQ. The webpage has been viewed 4,385 times, but only ~50 sets (roughly 300 cars) had been ordered as of last month. That's why I say that there aren't enough people in S willing to spend the money... because they haven't. I realize it seems like a lot of money to many, but Scott doesn't set his costs... the factories do. If he can't get enough orders to break even then I think that just points to there not being enough people in S to "move the needle". In HO even a niche product can have thousands of orders just due to the massive numbers of people in the scale. S just doesn't have that luxury.

Jonathan, I had the Seuthe units and the flywheels removed and cruise control, 4 chuffs and MTH fan driven smoke units installed in all my Mikado's and Pacifics shortly after purchase. They went from my least favorite to most favorite engines, topped only by the Y-3 when I purchased one.

I am aware of the choice of wheels, after some thought I actually ordered my set with high rail wheels. I missed that there was an option for short cars for 20"radius track, I guess since I wanted the full length cars. For the short cars the AM Budd cars at $329 retail for four would make the GGD at $329/car (or was it $350) seem unreasonably expensive.

How about a more specific survey that would have more guidance then just "Large articulated steam engine" or " medium sized steam engine?" Some ideas: SP Daylight Steam engine $500 range SP Daylight Steam engine $800 range N&W J Steam engine $500 range N&W J Steam engine $800 range SP Cab Forward Steam engine $800 range SP Cab Foward Steam engine $1,000 range Corrected UP Big Boy $800 range Corrected UP Big Boy $1,000 range UP Big boy with only corrected tender & trailing truck $800 range ACG 0-6-0 slope back tender steam engine $400 range ACG 0-8-0 NP switcher steam engine $400 range I will admit that I don't know modern Diesel engines, but similar questions. This would give them not only prototype results, but pricing too.

Part of the problem is everyone wants "their" favorite nowadays.  If it's not on the survey, fugettaboutit.

Do I have a favorite?  Sure... The Russian Decapod, particularly Frisco.  Do I expect one to be produced in S?  No.  Does it prevent me for participating in a survey?  No.

However, I have become reluctant to participate in surveys (I eventually did participate in this one) because nothing usually comes from it.

Right now we've got two so-called major players in the S "mass" market, for lack of a better term: American Models and Lionel.  One has less resources than the other.  Both insist on marching to their own drumbeat.  And who know when Ron B's going to retire...

MTH is done.  Even if someone buys the Showcase Line from MTH, expect at least a year before anything shows up and 4-5 more for anything truly new.

There's River Raisin and PBL for brass, but that's even a smaller piece of the pie.  Plus, PBL is almost exclusively narrow gauge.  For the average S person, RR & PBL are $$$$ and neither cater to the HiRail/Flyer crowd.

Can you believe that River Raisin couldn't get enough reservations for the N&W J?  A famous locomotive (even before the excursion era) that was supposed to be a slam-dunk.  Another company (G&W Models) also tried getting interest in the "J" back in the late 80's and failed.  Go figure...  I honestly don't think a Daylight GS4 would fare much better.

Rusty

Well, I don't know what happened, but my formatting disappeared and it became a run on sentence.

Rusty, look at the price range that River Raisin is in--I would have bought their SP Mogul, but can't swing $3K for an engine to "play" with. If they had actually done SP 1727---hmmm. welllll, I might have! But it would have just become a shelf queen for me, so. . . . Yes, there is a market out there, but the price breaks are tough.

Rusty, look at the price range that River Raisin is in--I would have bought their SP Mogul, but can't swing $3K for an engine to "play" with. If they had actually done SP 1727---hmmm. welllll, I might have! But it would have just become a shelf queen for me, so. . . . Yes, there is a market out there, but the price breaks are tough.

@Former Member posted:

Rusty, look at the price range that River Raisin is in--I would have bought their SP Mogul, but can't swing $3K for an engine to "play" with. If they had actually done SP 1727---hmmm. welllll, I might have! But it would have just become a shelf queen for me, so. . . . Yes, there is a market out there, but the price breaks are tough.

That's the issue isn't it? If you want 1 SP Mogul then you could pay probably in excess of $10,000 to have one hand made by a craftsman. However, the more you make the less they cost due to economies of scale and production efficiencies. RR can do 100-200 or whatever Dan made at $3000. If you could sell 2000-5000 I bet that price would drop to about $1500 or less. If you could sell 10,000 I bet you could bring that model in under $1000.

I don't begrudge Dan or Scott for their prices. Both guys are honest and upstanding. They aren't getting rich on these projects. This is what it costs to bring these projects to market in such low volumes.  How long the market will bear the prices is the issue.

@Former Member posted:

Rusty, look at the price range that River Raisin is in--I would have bought their SP Mogul, but can't swing $3K for an engine to "play" with. If they had actually done SP 1727---hmmm. welllll, I might have! But it would have just become a shelf queen for me, so. . . . Yes, there is a market out there, but the price breaks are tough.

Part of it is River Raisin is the caviar, not the meatloaf.  RR's also paying a higher labor rate in Korea while making small runs.  The other part is the there's a sad reality that nowadays it costs almost as much to bring a small locomotive to market as it does a large one.

Rusty

@Former Member posted:

Rusty, look at the price range that River Raisin is in--I would have bought their SP Mogul, but can't swing $3K for an engine to "play" with. If they had actually done SP 1727---hmmm. welllll, I might have! But it would have just become a shelf queen for me, so. . . . Yes, there is a market out there, but the price breaks are tough.

$3,000?!?  Not quite.  They retailed for $1,499.

Rusty, that was my point, RR was the caviar, and the J market was the meatloaf gang!  Chuck, hmm, thought I remembered them being the higher price, oh well. . .

I have a Y3, and I think it's one of the best engines big L made in S, details and operates great through ACG trackwork. I consider it proof that they CAN do one right.

But, as long as they believe the production costs will exceed the sales, we will see nada.  I know many were shocked at the sales for the BB when it came out, and the results (short term) were the Challengers and the Y3s.  Anyone know if the sales were strong enough?  I have to assume the Polar Express sales were/are good, as they are still cataloged and at affordable prices.

@Rusty Traque posted:

Do I have a favorite?  Sure... The Russian Decapod, particularly Frisco.  Do I expect one to be produced in S?  No.  Does it prevent me for participating in a survey?  No.

Can you believe that River Raisin couldn't get enough reservations for the N&W J?  A famous locomotive (even before the excursion era) that was supposed to be a slam-dunk.  Another company (G&W Models) also tried getting interest in the "J" back in the late 80's and failed.  Go figure...  I honestly don't think a Daylight GS4 would fare much better.

Rusty

Road specificity is gonna be a killer for any models going forward.  Too small of a market. Locomotives like the Big Boy, Daylight, J3, etc - are popular models with collectors.   But they aren't exactly operator friendly choices.  Lionel not offering scale wheels will hurt the market. That's a bad choice on their part.

The 2-10-0 Russian suggestion is actually a very good choice.  Tons of roads had them - and the USRA based their version off the originals specs.  I'd buy one.  No question - if scale is an option.  Not only that, the motor block could be re-used for a generic 2-10-2 Santa Fe class.  Over 2200 of those were built and used across a ton of roads.   

@Former Member posted:

I have to assume the Polar Express sales were/are good, as they are still cataloged and at affordable prices.

Given how many Polar Express variants Lionel's selling in O Gauge, I actually find it hard to believe the Flyer version actually sells that well to keep it on the production schedule year after year after year.  It's not like Flyer is sold in all the places Lionel O is sold.  It would be interesting to know the numbers but I know Big L will never release them.

There's been no significant changes to the Flyer PE over the years.  Additions, yes.  Changes, no.  I can't help but wonder if there's just a stack of dust covered PE sets hiding in a corner of the building somewhere waiting to be bought.

Rusty

@Jacobpaul81 posted:

The 2-10-0 Russian suggestion is actually a very good choice.  Tons of roads had them - and the USRA based their version off the originals specs.  I'd buy one.  No question - if scale is an option.  Not only that, the motor block could be re-used for a generic 2-10-2 Santa Fe class.  Over 2200 of those were built and used across a ton of roads.   

Well, not really. The Russian decapod is not a large locomotive.  It looks big, mainly because it's narrow boiler is fairly high off the frame.

The Russian's driver diameter is 52".  Strasburg's ex-Great Western decapod's is 56".  A USRA 2-10-2 driver diameter is 63".   Depending on the Class, Santa Fe's 2-10-2's had either 57" drivers or 63" drivers.  The Pennsy's N1s and N2s 2-10-2'a had 62" and 63" drivers respectively.

Rusty

@Tom Stoltz posted:

However, when operating your trains, can you really see the difference between High-rail and scale wheelsets?

Yes, definitely.  The Flyonel flanges are huge even relative to hi-rail wheels from AM, SHS/MTH, SSA and Ace.  In fact the flanges are so big on the PA's and on the tenders, pilots and trailing  trucks of the Flyonel steamers that they bump against the molded rail spike heads of 27" radii FasTrack curves making a very loud and very bad rumbling as they pass through. All the other aforementioned brands of hi-rail wheels travel these curves with no problem.

On a different note, I have been in model railroading 5 years, and reading and participating in the rantings (and I mean that in a good way) regarding the L-AF catalogue have become a new annual tradition for me that I find entertaining. Thanks to all for the fun I have on here every Jan/Feb!

@Chuck K posted:

In fact the flanges are so big on the PA's and on the tenders, pilots and trailing  trucks of the Flyonel steamers that they bump against the molded rail spike heads of 27" radii FasTrack curves making a very loud and very bad rumbling as they pass through. All the other aforementioned brands of hi-rail wheels travel these curves with no problem.

I seem to remember that the early years of Flyonel PA’s had a lower profile flange, more akin to the Gilbert PA’s of the mid 50’s. I believe Flyonel changed the PA flanges to the much larger style around the time of the NYC PA set.

So why did Lionel increase the flange height? I run a lot of my original Gilbert PA’s and GP7’s and don’t have any problems with them.

@Rusty Traque posted:

Well, not really. The Russian decapod is not a large locomotive.  It looks big, mainly because it's narrow boiler is fairly high off the frame.

The Russian's driver diameter is 52".  Strasburg's ex-Great Western decapod's is 56".  A USRA 2-10-2 driver diameter is 63".   Depending on the Class, Santa Fe's 2-10-2's had either 57" drivers or 63" drivers.  The Pennsy's N1s and N2s 2-10-2'a had 62" and 63" drivers respectively.

Rusty

I would take a pair of Legacy Erie 2-10-0 Russian Decapods. Really neat little engines that have never been done in S to my knowledge.

Credit: Monroe County Historical Org.

I would buy one or two of those decapods if they were Legacy. Nice engines, 52" drivers really are small looking.

@AmFlyer posted:

I would buy one or two of those decapods if they were Legacy. Nice engines, 52" drivers really are small looking.

What would the minimum radius be to run them?

With the small drivers 20"R should be possible. The rear drivers might need to be blind with the flanges on the 1st and 4th drivers. Nice engine.

@Ukaflyer posted:

What would the minimum radius be to run them?

Depends on how they flange/blind the drivers. The HO model that Bachmann makes requires 22" which is ~30" in S. Could be less if they blind more drivers.

I would think that any steamer considered would either have to have prototypically been used by a few roads, some close enough copies used by other roads or be a good candidate for "fantasy" schemes. The popular choices of the N&W J(shrouded, unshrouded on same road), SP GS(shrouded, unshrouded on same road, AFT), Big Boy (UP std, maybe greyhound fantasy same road) J3 Hudson (NYC Std W/ reg tender/centipede, Dryfuss, Century on same road, B&A "close").  All these popular choices had limited roadname exposure and limit the manufacturers offerings of reality before venturing into fantasy schemes. Correct me if I missed any actual uses of these realworld models. Even so I believe any of these have a better chance of sales than some of the more obscure real world steam variants. ****, I'm still hoping for a Legacy set of Baldwin Sharknoses!

@jonnyspeed posted:

Depends on how they flange/blind the drivers. The HO model that Bachmann makes requires 22" which is ~30" in S. Could be less if they blind more drivers.

The PFM HO model will go around 18" radius and all its drivers are flanged like the prototype.  The Bachmann models have the center driver blind.  It all depends on tolerance.

But a Russian Decapod in S is snowball in heck territory.  After two false starts in the past, I doubt we'll see one.  You won't see one from Lionel because they haven't done on in O.  MTH has the files, but who knows those will wind up.

Rusty

@Rusty Traque posted:

The Russian's driver diameter is 52".  Strasburg's ex-Great Western decapod's is 56".  A USRA 2-10-2 driver diameter is 63".   Depending on the Class, Santa Fe's 2-10-2's had either 57" drivers or 63" drivers.  The Pennsy's N1s and N2s 2-10-2'a had 62" and 63" drivers respectively.

Rusty

So make it with 60" and call it good.  Only a rivet counter would claim to notice, if they could tell.

Tom Stoltz

in Maine

@Tom Stoltz posted:

So make it with 60" and call it good.  Only a rivet counter would claim to notice, if they could tell.

Tom Stoltz

in Maine

My thoughts exactly.

Both AM and Lionel are releasing USRA locomotives with ATSF on the side of them.  What's 3"? 

@Jacobpaul81 posted:

My thoughts exactly.

Both AM and Lionel are releasing USRA locomotives with ATSF on the side of them.  What's 3"? 

0.046875"

Tom Stoltz

in Maine

Maybe Bachmann would want to get into the game.  They have the model in HO to upscale.

@Chuck K posted:

Yes, definitely.  The Flyonel flanges are huge even relative to hi-rail wheels from AM, SHS/MTH, SSA and Ace.  In fact the flanges are so big on the PA's and on the tenders, pilots and trailing  trucks of the Flyonel steamers that they bump against the molded rail spike heads of 27" radii FasTrack curves making a very loud and very bad rumbling as they pass through. All the other aforementioned brands of hi-rail wheels travel these curves with no problem.

Maybe if you are up close and really looking, but if they are running...  I keep trying to load a video that has all 3 types of wheels in one train (going through a turnout) and the focus is on the wheels -- you can't tell.  Don't know if it will run for you but try the link:

http://www.tomsturnouts.com/video/VideoTTT.html

Tom Stoltz

in Maine

@Tom Stoltz posted:

So make it with 60" and call it good.  Only a rivet counter would claim to notice, if they could tell.

Tom Stoltz

in Maine

60"???  That's 8 prototype inches, almost a full 1/16" larger that would be on an S Russian. It's easy to get away with slightly undersized drivers, but harder to get away with oversized ones.

Stretched out over 5 driver pairs that's an extra 5/16" on an S scale model, not counting some additional spacing needed between drivers.  I'm not sure the selective expansion over the length wouldn't be noticeable.  Might as well just drop the trailing truck, add another driver to the Mikado's frame and plop the Pacific/Mikado boiler back on it, then call it done.

Maybe Lionel should have used two Mikado drives under the Y3...  After all, 63" drivers are close to 57" drivers...

Rusty

@Rusty Traque posted:

60"???  That's 8 prototype inches, almost a full 1/16" larger that would be on an S Russian. It's easy to get away with slightly undersized drivers, but harder to get away with oversized ones.

Stretched out over 5 driver pairs that's an extra 5/16" on an S scale model, not counting some additional spacing needed between drivers.  I'm not sure the selective expansion over the length wouldn't be noticeable.  Might as well just drop the trailing truck, add another driver to the Mikado's frame and plop the Pacific/Mikado boiler back on it, then call it done.

Maybe Lionel should have used two Mikado drives under the Y3...  After all, 63" drivers are close to 57" drivers...

Rusty

Wouldn't 8 prototype inches = 1/8 inch in S scale.  I thought the scale worked out to be 3/16 inch equals 12 inches or one foot.  Or am I wrong?

Mike A.

@Rusty Traque posted:

Might as well just drop the trailing truck, add another driver to the Mikado's frame and plop the Pacific/Mikado boiler back on it, then call it done.

The Lionel design team is already on this. 

@Mikeaa posted:

Wouldn't 8 prototype inches = 1/8 inch in S scale.  I thought the scale worked out to be 3/16 inch equals 12 inches or one foot.  Or am I wrong?

Mike A.

Never was good at math.  Ran out of fingers when I was calculating.

Rusty

@Rusty Traque posted:

60"???  That's 8 prototype inches, almost a full 1/16" larger that would be on an S Russian. It's easy to get away with slightly undersized drivers, but harder to get away with oversized ones.

Stretched out over 5 driver pairs that's an extra 5/16" on an S scale model, not counting some additional spacing needed between drivers.  I'm not sure the selective expansion over the length wouldn't be noticeable.  Might as well just drop the trailing truck, add another driver to the Mikado's frame and plop the Pacific/Mikado boiler back on it, then call it done.

Maybe Lionel should have used two Mikado drives under the Y3...  After all, 63" drivers are close to 57" drivers...

Rusty

I believe if you take the average of all the different drivers you mentioned it would actually be 59.5".  I was just trying to round it off.  Yes, if you put the smallest next to the largest I am sure you would see a difference.  I find it quiet noticeable on the ACG Reading Atlantic...

Tom Stoltz

in Maine

Anyhow...  Getting back to the original concept of this thread.

While I'm glad to see the return of the Pacific's, I'm not really in the market for one.  I've got the B&O from the olden days, although the B&O did rebuild some Pacific's with a centered headlight.  I'm sorta surprised Lionel didn't dress it up for a President's class Pacific and paint it olive or blue.  Maybe in the future as another overpriced passenger set...

Being a Santa Fe enthusiast, I could almost go for the Santa Fe Pacific, but I've made a conscious effort to concentrate my HiRail efforts to roads east of the Mississippi. (Yeah, I know Santa Fe ran to Chicago, but the majority trackage is west of the Mighty Mississippi.)

I suppose there's always the NYC...

Rusty

@Rusty Traque posted:

Being a Santa Fe enthusiast, I could almost go for the Santa Fe Pacific, but I've made a conscious effort to concentrate my HiRail efforts to roads east of the Mississippi. (Yeah, I know Santa Fe ran to Chicago, but the majority trackage is west of the Mighty Mississippi.)

I suppose there's always the NYC...

Rusty

What we need is...



That's how Lionel could get my $.        

Beyond my sarcasm -  I might add - this is the basis for the PW Lionel 2055.   They could sell it to all the Lionel collectors as the 21st Century Version.

This is long overdue.......

@Jacobpaul81 posted:

What we need is...



That's how Lionel could get my $.        

Beyond my sarcasm -  I might add - this is the basis for the PW Lionel 2055.   They could sell it to all the Lionel collectors as the 21st Century Version.

@DL&W Pete posted:

This is long overdue.......

Same answer to both.  Unless Lionel has offered one in O, we're not going even have a hope to see it in S.

It's why I know I won't see a Russian Decapod in S from Lionel.  Or a favorite of mine in the diesel category:  Fairbanks Morse C-Liners. (Life-Like HO model shown)

Rusty

I have communicated with Ryan Kunkle of Lionel today and they did find and use the earlier tooling for these new Pacifics.  I am glad they are back in the inventory.

@Roundhouse Bill posted:

I have communicated with Ryan Kunkle of Lionel today and they did find and use the earlier tooling for these new Pacifics.  I am glad they are back in the inventory.

Bill, is there any way you could confirm that the R27" curve requirements for the Pacifics are typos?  And secondly whether they come ready for conversion to scale couplers like the Berks?

Ryan is hard to communicate with.  His answer on the tooling was one word, "yes".  I suggest the NASG meeting with him on the 2nd would be batter to approach these topics.

@Roundhouse Bill posted:

Ryan is hard to communicate with.  His answer on the tooling was one word, "yes".  I suggest the NASG meeting with him on the 2nd would be batter to approach these topics.

Understood.  Will do.

@Rusty Traque posted:

Same answer to both.  Unless Lionel has offered one in O, we're not going even have a hope to see it in S.

It's why I know I won't see a Russian Decapod in S from Lionel.  Or a favorite of mine in the diesel category:  Fairbanks Morse C-Liners. (Life-Like HO model shown)

Rusty

I don’t understand the correlation that we in the S gauge/scale have to mirror what is being built in the O gauge line, am I missing something here? Why can’t Lionel be inspirational and do what we want for a change?

Now I will agree with you that the FM C-liner is cool!

@Ukaflyer posted:

I don’t understand the correlation that we in the S gauge/scale have to mirror what is being built in the O gauge line, am I missing something here? Why can’t Lionel be inspirational and do what we want for a change?

Now I will agree with you that the FM C-liner is cool!

It's simple.  The research is done.  Lionel's going to do (if anything) new S products they already have data for.  And they do have a lot of data hiding in their computers that could be turned into never before made American Flyer products.  Theoretically, Lionel could make an S scale Acela...

All the brand new releases over the past decade were first offered in O Gauge.  Nothing else was created new for the Flyer line that wasn't in the Gilbert lineup.  Now, Lionel's made some changes for the better to the likes of the Baldwin switcher and GP7, but again nothing truly new.

The Mikado's and Pacific's from the early 2000's were pretty much an anomaly, done by a different and long gone team.  The Big Boy just took advantage of available tooling to create a caricature.

Rusty

@Roundhouse Bill posted:

Every year and catalog is the same.  We all complain about what they didn't make that we wanted and hoped they would or what they are making is poorly done.  I think that is why they don't listen to us.

In the past when I interviewed the people at Lionel about Flyer for the S Gaugian I heard, "If you ask 20 Flyer guys what they wanted you get 20 different answers."  That was followed by, "We try to produce what we think will sell with the tooling costs we can afford."

They used to use a small secret committee of known Flyer people for suggestions.  I know of a couple of these people and they haven't really met for several years.  Well, there is always the next catalog.

Bill,  

I offered Lionel the following question that they did not take answers to........

“During the last 3 years there have been surveys on the OGR S gauge forum saying what people wanted and were willing to buy.  It’s true that you ask 20 S people you will get 20 different answers but 19 of those people will be willing to buy 19 of those suggestions.  What will it take for Lionel to actually make what your customers want to buy?”

In my opinion you will make more money making products people want (even with new tooling) then offering retreads that no one is asking for.

As a personal note, knowing this was the 75th year I put aside funds thinking I was going to buy more items then previous years because for the 75th with all the great possibilities people had suggested.  I was certain there would more new items I would want.

Well now after this catalog, I’m buying less then any previous year from Lionel.  Well maybe they will surprise me in volume 2.

—Rocco—

@Trinity River Bottoms Boomer posted:

A request: Those of you who possess Lionel AF S gauge Challengers and have shot video, would you please share.

Thanks,

Joe

All I have are stills.  Found a couple of videos on YouTube:

Rusty

@Trinity River Bottoms Boomer posted:

Thanks Rusty, great for starters!

Good lookin' locomotives, however, I'm still not sold on the crew talk.  The English language has changed so much over the years.  Just check out the way Americans talked during the era of the Gay 90's, Roaring Twenties, World War II, the Fabulous Fifties, and fast forward to Century 21!  Ditto with the railroaders, be it Casey Jones on the Cannonball Express or Denzel Washington in the motion picture "Unstoppable" for example.

I can't justify spending $$$ for any feature(s) I do not have any use for.

Joe

Crew talk/radio chatter is usually pretty inane, I never use that option.  I cringe when I hear some of the "banter" between the locomotive and dispatcher.  Especially on locomotives that didn't have radios, like most steam locomotives before the late 20th/21st century excursion era.

But, it's all just a subroutine integrated into main program and no special hardware required.  Removing it won't make things any cheaper.

I don't use smoke either. I just turn them off and not carp about the added costs.  Why?  Someone once asked Don Thompson of S Helper if removing smoke from the 2-8-0 would make the loco cost less.  He responded the bulk purchase costs of the smoke unit was negligible and wouldn't affect the MSRP.

Rusty

Then there are those of us, at least myself, that are easily entertained by the inane. I use the towercom and crewtalk. I even have the Sensor tracks programmed to trigger crewtalk and whistles when an engine passes over one. I am still disappointed the Challengers do not have brake squeal.

As for smoke, too much is almost enough. Half of my diesel fleet now has smoke as well as all the steam engines.

@Rusty Traque posted:

All I have are stills.  Found a couple of videos on YouTube:

Rusty

I am picking one of these up later this week or next. As if I really needed to expand on my post war AF stuff but I do really like S. It’s such a cool size for a smaller space.

@WRW posted:

... but I do really like S. It’s such a cool size for a smaller space.

Perfect description. 👍

Mark in Oregon

Any word on if there are any cancellations?? Curious if the Pacifics are a go.  Also wondering on the status of the EP5

Ben

I'm kinda wondering about the cancellations here as well. I've got the NH EP-5 and the U.S.A F. Baldwin set on preorder.  I'm fairly certain the Baldwin set is going to ship but I'm a bit confused on the EP-5s. I do not see them listed on the shipping schedual in Lionel's website. Pretty much everything else is listed along with a projected delivery date but no EP-5s.

I sure hope they haven't been canceled, I've been really looking forward to it.

I’m so on the fence about the EP5.  I have thought about ordering one just to support the project but I really don’t care for any of the 4 road names produced.  If they only did the Milwaukee Road or the PE in it.  

Ben

Have not seen any updates but I expect the Legacy Pacifics will be made. Lionel apparently has all the dies/tools they need from the 2005 era TMCC versions of the engine. I have two on order. Lionel did say that a Legacy version of the Light Mikado will likely be made following the Pacifics.

Ryan Kunkle stated on a Workbench Wednesday livestream (about a month ago?) that the only AF cancellation was the Reading and Northern excursion set.

@Keith L posted:

Ryan Kunkle stated on a Workbench Wednesday livestream (about a month ago?) that the only AF cancellation was the Reading and Northern excursion set.

Of course, the Reading.  Good news is American Models is near running their heavyweight set decorated for the Reading Company... finally some real Reading equipment.

I didn't see, but what engine was Lionel going to use for their Reading and Northern set?

Tom Stoltz

in Maine

It was a new Legacy Pacific decorated for R&N, the engine was a blue color. The coaches and caboose were red with black roofs. In my opinion the challenge was the retail price; an engine, two coaches, a baggage and a caboose for $1,400.

@AmFlyer posted:

It was a new Legacy Pacific decorated for R&N, the engine was a blue color. The coaches and caboose were red with black roofs. In my opinion the challenge was the retail price; an engine, two coaches, a baggage and a caboose for $1,400.

Thanks Tom,

Now I remember total fantasy, both in equipment and price.

Tom Stoltz

@Tom Stoltz posted:

Thanks Tom,

Now I remember total fantasy, both in equipment and price.

Tom Stoltz

Apparently, folks have accepted the $1,400 challenge for the ACG Anniversary set.

Rusty

@Rusty Traque posted:

Apparently, folks have accepted the $1,400 challenge for the ACG Anniversary set.

Rusty

Now those are some dedicate Flyer fans. I can't imagine paying almost $190 per car for plastic, fantasy schemed, low detail passenger cars.

I sprung for the boxcar but not for the Anniversary set.

The $1400 price was outrageous but I'm still bummed to see it cancelled... it would have been a nice set to pick up for like $1000 after it sat on a dealer shelf and collected dust for a year. 😆

I had preordered a Legacy B&O Pacific and had some concerns. In response to my inquiry, Ryan e-mailed to me that the Pacifics, the EP-5's, and passenger cars are a 'go'. The R&N set was the only item from the new catalog that was canceled.

Hope this helps.

Bob

@Bob Bubeck posted:

I had preordered a Legacy B&O Pacific and had some concerns. In response to my inquiry, Ryan e-mailed to me that the Pacifics, the EP-5's, and passenger cars are a 'go'. The R&N set was the only item from the new catalog that was canceled.

Hope this helps.

Bob

Well, I preordered the New Haven.  I need another EP-5 like I need a hole in the head.

Hey, why does it feel so drafty up there???

Rusty

Rusty,

Your response is a real grin! Hope the draft up there is is warm and pleasant :-)

Ed Boyle

@Bob Bubeck posted:

I had preordered a Legacy B&O Pacific and had some concerns. In response to my inquiry, Ryan e-mailed to me that the Pacifics, the EP-5's, and passenger cars are a 'go'. The R&N set was the only item from the new catalog that was canceled.

Hope this helps.

Bob

Very good, thank you for the update! 😁

Bob Tufts in the SGaugian years ago said the K-5 Gilbert dies were shot, in 1958. Have no idea if Lionel can refurbish the original dies if they have them.

@Jerry Rubin posted:

Bob Tufts in the SGaugian years ago said the K-5 Gilbert dies were shot, in 1958. Have no idea if Lionel can refurbish the original dies if they have them.

Jerry, just curious, but why the interest in the K5 tooling? There are still plenty of the originals to be had.

Tom Stoltz

in Maine

When does the  2021 Vol II Catalog come out?

I think Ryan said mid July.

@Former Member posted:

When does the  2021 Vol II Catalog come out?

Too soon?

Tom Stoltz

in Maine

MId July, hmm, is it time to start conjecturing what might be in it for S? I vote for a Daylight GS6!!!

@Former Member posted:

MId July, hmm, is it time to start conjecturing what might be in it for S? I vote for a Daylight GS6!!!

I'm keeping my expectations low.  Maybe the Mikado's.  I'm not anticipating a lot of new Flyer in the next catalog.

Rusty