2021 Lionel Catalog S Gauge Steam

@Jacobpaul81 posted:

The 2-10-0 Russian suggestion is actually a very good choice.  Tons of roads had them - and the USRA based their version off the originals specs.  I'd buy one.  No question - if scale is an option.  Not only that, the motor block could be re-used for a generic 2-10-2 Santa Fe class.  Over 2200 of those were built and used across a ton of roads.   

Well, not really. The Russian decapod is not a large locomotive.  It looks big, mainly because it's narrow boiler is fairly high off the frame.

The Russian's driver diameter is 52".  Strasburg's ex-Great Western decapod's is 56".  A USRA 2-10-2 driver diameter is 63".   Depending on the Class, Santa Fe's 2-10-2's had either 57" drivers or 63" drivers.  The Pennsy's N1s and N2s 2-10-2'a had 62" and 63" drivers respectively.

Rusty

@Tom Stoltz posted:

However, when operating your trains, can you really see the difference between High-rail and scale wheelsets?

Yes, definitely.  The Flyonel flanges are huge even relative to hi-rail wheels from AM, SHS/MTH, SSA and Ace.  In fact the flanges are so big on the PA's and on the tenders, pilots and trailing  trucks of the Flyonel steamers that they bump against the molded rail spike heads of 27" radii FasTrack curves making a very loud and very bad rumbling as they pass through. All the other aforementioned brands of hi-rail wheels travel these curves with no problem.

On a different note, I have been in model railroading 5 years, and reading and participating in the rantings (and I mean that in a good way) regarding the L-AF catalogue have become a new annual tradition for me that I find entertaining. Thanks to all for the fun I have on here every Jan/Feb!

@Chuck K posted:

In fact the flanges are so big on the PA's and on the tenders, pilots and trailing  trucks of the Flyonel steamers that they bump against the molded rail spike heads of 27" radii FasTrack curves making a very loud and very bad rumbling as they pass through. All the other aforementioned brands of hi-rail wheels travel these curves with no problem.

I seem to remember that the early years of Flyonel PA’s had a lower profile flange, more akin to the Gilbert PA’s of the mid 50’s. I believe Flyonel changed the PA flanges to the much larger style around the time of the NYC PA set.

So why did Lionel increase the flange height? I run a lot of my original Gilbert PA’s and GP7’s and don’t have any problems with them.

@Rusty Traque posted:

Well, not really. The Russian decapod is not a large locomotive.  It looks big, mainly because it's narrow boiler is fairly high off the frame.

The Russian's driver diameter is 52".  Strasburg's ex-Great Western decapod's is 56".  A USRA 2-10-2 driver diameter is 63".   Depending on the Class, Santa Fe's 2-10-2's had either 57" drivers or 63" drivers.  The Pennsy's N1s and N2s 2-10-2'a had 62" and 63" drivers respectively.

Rusty

I would take a pair of Legacy Erie 2-10-0 Russian Decapods. Really neat little engines that have never been done in S to my knowledge.

Credit: Monroe County Historical Org.

I would buy one or two of those decapods if they were Legacy. Nice engines, 52" drivers really are small looking.

@AmFlyer posted:

I would buy one or two of those decapods if they were Legacy. Nice engines, 52" drivers really are small looking.

What would the minimum radius be to run them?

With the small drivers 20"R should be possible. The rear drivers might need to be blind with the flanges on the 1st and 4th drivers. Nice engine.

@Ukaflyer posted:

What would the minimum radius be to run them?

Depends on how they flange/blind the drivers. The HO model that Bachmann makes requires 22" which is ~30" in S. Could be less if they blind more drivers.

I would think that any steamer considered would either have to have prototypically been used by a few roads, some close enough copies used by other roads or be a good candidate for "fantasy" schemes. The popular choices of the N&W J(shrouded, unshrouded on same road), SP GS(shrouded, unshrouded on same road, AFT), Big Boy (UP std, maybe greyhound fantasy same road) J3 Hudson (NYC Std W/ reg tender/centipede, Dryfuss, Century on same road, B&A "close").  All these popular choices had limited roadname exposure and limit the manufacturers offerings of reality before venturing into fantasy schemes. Correct me if I missed any actual uses of these realworld models. Even so I believe any of these have a better chance of sales than some of the more obscure real world steam variants. ****, I'm still hoping for a Legacy set of Baldwin Sharknoses!

@jonnyspeed posted:

Depends on how they flange/blind the drivers. The HO model that Bachmann makes requires 22" which is ~30" in S. Could be less if they blind more drivers.

The PFM HO model will go around 18" radius and all its drivers are flanged like the prototype.  The Bachmann models have the center driver blind.  It all depends on tolerance.

But a Russian Decapod in S is snowball in heck territory.  After two false starts in the past, I doubt we'll see one.  You won't see one from Lionel because they haven't done on in O.  MTH has the files, but who knows those will wind up.

Rusty

@Rusty Traque posted:

The Russian's driver diameter is 52".  Strasburg's ex-Great Western decapod's is 56".  A USRA 2-10-2 driver diameter is 63".   Depending on the Class, Santa Fe's 2-10-2's had either 57" drivers or 63" drivers.  The Pennsy's N1s and N2s 2-10-2'a had 62" and 63" drivers respectively.

Rusty

So make it with 60" and call it good.  Only a rivet counter would claim to notice, if they could tell.

Tom Stoltz

in Maine

@Tom Stoltz posted:

So make it with 60" and call it good.  Only a rivet counter would claim to notice, if they could tell.

Tom Stoltz

in Maine

My thoughts exactly.

Both AM and Lionel are releasing USRA locomotives with ATSF on the side of them.  What's 3"? 

@Jacobpaul81 posted:

My thoughts exactly.

Both AM and Lionel are releasing USRA locomotives with ATSF on the side of them.  What's 3"? 

0.046875"

Tom Stoltz

in Maine

Maybe Bachmann would want to get into the game.  They have the model in HO to upscale.

@Chuck K posted:

Yes, definitely.  The Flyonel flanges are huge even relative to hi-rail wheels from AM, SHS/MTH, SSA and Ace.  In fact the flanges are so big on the PA's and on the tenders, pilots and trailing  trucks of the Flyonel steamers that they bump against the molded rail spike heads of 27" radii FasTrack curves making a very loud and very bad rumbling as they pass through. All the other aforementioned brands of hi-rail wheels travel these curves with no problem.

Maybe if you are up close and really looking, but if they are running...  I keep trying to load a video that has all 3 types of wheels in one train (going through a turnout) and the focus is on the wheels -- you can't tell.  Don't know if it will run for you but try the link:

http://www.tomsturnouts.com/video/VideoTTT.html

Tom Stoltz

in Maine

@Tom Stoltz posted:

So make it with 60" and call it good.  Only a rivet counter would claim to notice, if they could tell.

Tom Stoltz

in Maine

60"???  That's 8 prototype inches, almost a full 1/16" larger that would be on an S Russian. It's easy to get away with slightly undersized drivers, but harder to get away with oversized ones.

Stretched out over 5 driver pairs that's an extra 5/16" on an S scale model, not counting some additional spacing needed between drivers.  I'm not sure the selective expansion over the length wouldn't be noticeable.  Might as well just drop the trailing truck, add another driver to the Mikado's frame and plop the Pacific/Mikado boiler back on it, then call it done.

Maybe Lionel should have used two Mikado drives under the Y3...  After all, 63" drivers are close to 57" drivers...

Rusty

@Rusty Traque posted:

60"???  That's 8 prototype inches, almost a full 1/16" larger that would be on an S Russian. It's easy to get away with slightly undersized drivers, but harder to get away with oversized ones.

Stretched out over 5 driver pairs that's an extra 5/16" on an S scale model, not counting some additional spacing needed between drivers.  I'm not sure the selective expansion over the length wouldn't be noticeable.  Might as well just drop the trailing truck, add another driver to the Mikado's frame and plop the Pacific/Mikado boiler back on it, then call it done.

Maybe Lionel should have used two Mikado drives under the Y3...  After all, 63" drivers are close to 57" drivers...

Rusty

Wouldn't 8 prototype inches = 1/8 inch in S scale.  I thought the scale worked out to be 3/16 inch equals 12 inches or one foot.  Or am I wrong?

Mike A.

@Rusty Traque posted:

Might as well just drop the trailing truck, add another driver to the Mikado's frame and plop the Pacific/Mikado boiler back on it, then call it done.

The Lionel design team is already on this. 

@Mikeaa posted:

Wouldn't 8 prototype inches = 1/8 inch in S scale.  I thought the scale worked out to be 3/16 inch equals 12 inches or one foot.  Or am I wrong?

Mike A.

Never was good at math.  Ran out of fingers when I was calculating.

Rusty