Gosh... model railroading is getting expensive...😳
Mark in Oregon
It is all too typical to comment on the pricing, but color me amazed. The Lionel Y3 is a great loco, but $1700 MSRP (Opps! $1799 MSRP) ? $700 MSRP for the Legacy Pacific now feels like a bargain in comparison and suggests that the new Y3 should be about $1400+ MSRP. The new Pacific is a smaller engine with one motor, but it has all of the features of the new Y3 except whistle steam. The new PA sets are appealing in decoration, but pricey for what they are. We are still looking at ALCo shells like Gilbert's and passenger cars whose design with silhouettes and no interiors was developed in 1952-53. All of this reminds one of the 'bridge too far' pricing of the canceled Reading and Northern set.
The fact that I own a Y3 and the pricing of the reissue dampens my zeal to add to the fleet. The trains that are the PA sets should have been thoroughly redone some time ago (I am hoping that the PA pilot insert will appear as a separate part). I could rationalize high pricing if production had been repatriated, but it hasn't been.
Nice trains and a pretty catalog, but ugh.
Respectfully,
Bob
Well, I'll buy a Legacy engine but not sure which one. As always with Flyonel, I need to research which of these are actually prototypical roadnames for that engine type. I know the Clinchfield 2-8-8-2 is, so that might be my choice.
@Bob Bubeck posted:It is all too typical to comment on the pricing, but color me amazed. The Lionel Y3 is a great loco, but $1700 MSRP? $700 MSRP for the Legacy Pacific now feels like a bargain in comparison and suggests that the new Y3 should be about $1400+ MSRP.
Bob
Make that $1800 ($1799.99) Bob. I figured a new Y3 would have weighed in at around $1500, so we're close there. I guess the modifications for whistle steam and fitting for the Pacific tenders on some models are the extra $300. I also wonder how far "road specific detailing" will go. The illustrations are generic photoshops.
In spite of all that the Y3 remains the best Flyer locomotive Lionel has put out IMHO. The Berk is a close second.
I'm reasonably happy with my 2012 (eccentric crank issue notwithstanding) era Y3 and as I don't do smoke, whistle steam doesn't add any value for me.
Rusty
@Rusty Traque posted:Make that $1800 ($1799.99) Bob. I figured a new Y3 would have weighed in at around $1500, so we're close there. I guess the modifications for whistle steam and fitting for the Pacific tenders on some models are the extra $300. I also wonder how far "road specific detailing" will go. The illustrations are generic photoshops.
In spite of all that the Y3 remains the best Flyer locomotive Lionel has put out IMHO. The Berk is a close second.
I'm reasonably happy with my 2012 (eccentric crank issue notwithstanding) era Y3 and as I don't do smoke, whistle steam doesn't add any value for me.
Rusty
313
@Chuck K posted:Well, I'll buy a Legacy engine but not sure which one. As always with Flyonel, I need to research which of these are actually prototypical roadnames for that engine type. I know the Clinchfield 2-8-8-2 is, so that might be my choice.
All the road names Lionel's offering had 2-8-8-2's in some way shape or form, except for the B&O. B&O had 2-8-8-4's and 2-8-8-0's.
Specific for the Y3's: Santa Fe, Union Pacific and Pennsylvania all bought Y3's second hand from the Norfolk & Western to ease power crunches during WWII. Virginian's Y3's were bought third hand from the Santa Fe.
Rusty
The original run of N&W Y3s had a "dog house" on the tender (one of the other road names also had one). The pictures in the catalog don't seem to have one. Of course that could just be cut and paste and not reflect what the actual product will be. I ended up buying the UP version but I don't have an N&W steam engine. I'd buy one of the new N&Ws if it had that feature.
It was road name specific in the 2012 run. For example the PRR has the dog house, the Santa Fe does not.
@Rusty Traque posted:All the road names Lionel's offering had 2-8-8-2's in some way shape or form, except for the B&O. B&O had 2-8-8-4's and 2-8-8-0's.
Specific for the Y3's: Santa Fe, Union Pacific and Pennsylvania all bought Y3's second hand from the Norfolk & Western to ease power crunches during WWII. Virginian's Y3's were bought third hand from the Santa Fe.
Rusty
ATSF had them for about 2 - 3 years. If I recall correctly, they picked them up in 1945 and they were gone by 1948. At the time, ATSF needed all their existing 2-10-2s and 2-10-4s for long haul freight service. The Y3s were brought over as helpers for Raton - which was generally the 2-10-2s job. ATSF didn't like them cause they were slow and clogged up the pass so they quickly dumped them. One was briefly assigned to Argentine in the hump yard. Doghouses were all removed on receipt.
"It was road name specific in the 2012 run"
Yes, that's why I mentioned that NONE of the Y3s pictured in the catalog have the doghouse. Rusty pointed out that other railroads bought their Y3s from N&W so I guess they removed the dog house after receiving them.
I can see that most everyone is interested in the Y-3's The price is so out there that I will pass on them....don't get me wrong.... the only thing that could be better than a Y-3 is a S gauge version of the Y-6b......I would pay extra for a legacy Y-6b.......
Lionel.....Listen please.........you have now priced me out of your market!!!!!!!!!!
I have decided to cancel my order for the 75th an.........set. I don't have room for it. Plus I must save money to buy 5.00 gas......thanks Joe. ( OK maybe 6 or 7 dollars)
regards
Jackie
@Jacobpaul81 posted:ATSF had them for about 2 - 3 years. If I recall correctly, they picked them up in 1945 and they were gone by 1948. At the time, ATSF needed all their existing 2-10-2s and 2-10-4s for long haul freight service. The Y3s were brought over as helpers for Raton - which was generally the 2-10-2s job. ATSF didn't like them cause they were slow and clogged up the pass so they quickly dumped them. One was briefly assigned to Argentine in the hump yard. Doghouses were all removed on receipt.
Plus one of the seven Y3's Santa Fe owned (No. 1797) was scrapped by the railroad in 1947. The other six were bought by the Virginian in 1948.
Rusty
@Rusty Traque posted:Make that $1800 ($1799.99) Bob. I figured a new Y3 would have weighed in at around $1500, so we're close there. I guess the modifications for whistle steam and fitting for the Pacific tenders on some models are the extra $300. I also wonder how far "road specific detailing" will go. The illustrations are generic photoshops.
In spite of all that the Y3 remains the best Flyer locomotive Lionel has put out IMHO. The Berk is a close second.
I'm reasonably happy with my 2012 (eccentric crank issue notwithstanding) era Y3 and as I don't do smoke, whistle steam doesn't add any value for me.
Rusty
Thanks. Corrected the MSRP, but this only makes matters more penurious. 
I agree that the Y3 is a great loco. Love my PRR (HH1) which does not have the crank issue. I might go a step further than you have and claim that it is the best scale-sized detailed hi-rail S gauge locomotive, period. This may be part of the problem. Not much competition at this time. I would have preferred a reissue of the Challenger with correction of detail errors and all of the betterments made afterwards with the Y3.
For those who purchase one, have fun! I know you will.
Bob
@ctomita posted:"It was road name specific in the 2012 run"
Yes, that's why I mentioned that NONE of the Y3s pictured in the catalog have the doghouse. Rusty pointed out that other railroads bought their Y3s from N&W so I guess they removed the dog house after receiving them.
Who ditched the dog house? Who? Who? Who? Who?! 
As usual, I think I have a different perspective than most others when it comes to this catalog.
The only item I’m interested in is the 2-8-8-2. The rest are too toylike and not what I’m looking for. The price increase is to be expected. This engine has all the features of the O scale Legacy Models, and as someone who used to buy a lot of O scale Legacy steam the price doesn’t bother me as much. I’d rather have a 1:64 scale model that runs on 2 rails than a 1:48 scale 3 rail model. I was hoping they would do the Mikado next, but I’ll pre-order a pair of the 2-8-8-2s. I am doubtful that they will get enough orders though so we’ll just have to wait and see. Even though not listed as Built to Order, I assume that’s the case.
Has anyone asked Ryan if they will have Kadee coupler pads on the tender like the Berks and Pacifics (supposedly)?
I would really like to see Lionel take a chance on a more road specific smaller legacy steam engine. Something like PRR K4, NYC Hudson (lots of variations), Erie K5, PRR B-6, etc… I’m not holding my breath, but I can dream.
More realistically, I’d like to see a 2nd run of roadnames and numbers for the Pacifics. I’d like an Erie (or 2) and 2nd B&O number please. And when they do the Mikados I hope they offer 2 numbers for each road.
FYI.............................
Small correction..................From what I have just read on Y-3's Baldwin build these engines for many railroads in the early days........I just saw a picture of one of the CRR. Y-3's and the one I saw had several different features on her.... Disc pilot wheels and trailing truck.... air pumps on boiler face and a road pilot instead of the footstep pilot...... will lionel correct these problems or......................................
Regards
Jackie
@ctomita posted:"It was road name specific in the 2012 run"
Yes, that's why I mentioned that NONE of the Y3s pictured in the catalog have the doghouse. Rusty pointed out that other railroads bought their Y3s from N&W so I guess they removed the dog house after receiving them.
Pennsy evidently retained the doghouses on their HH1's (Y3's) for most part. See page 78, of Staufer's Pennsy Power III. The Lionel/AF PRR HH1 from 2012 is correct in most every respect.
Bob
Jonathon, I think I have a similar perspective to yours. I plan to order a new Y3. The prices had to go up close to the O gauge engines to be viable. I would buy any of the engines you list if Lionel makes them.
My biggest gripe with the Lionel S gauge engines is except for the Big Boy, none of them have the O gauge absolute speed step boards. The 200 steps in S gauge are relative, and each engine model seems to be a very distant relative of the others. Some examples, speed step 15 on my Challengers gives the same speed as speed step 60 on the Big Boy. Speed step 15 on my older E-L U33 is the same speed as speed step 45 on my new Santa Fe U33. It is impossible to do a lash up unless the two engines are the same model from the same production run. For $1,800 I would expect Lionel to make these run as the O gauge engines do.
@William Jack posted:FYI.............................
Small correction..................From what I have just read on Y-3's Baldwin build these engines for many railroads in the early days........I just saw a picture of one of the CRR. Y-3's and the one I saw had several different features on her.... Disc pilot wheels and trailing truck.... air pumps on boiler face and a road pilot instead of the footstep pilot...... will lionel correct these problems or......................................
Regards
Jackie
Y3 is the N&W classification. The "Y" covers all of N&W's 2-8-8-2's.
Baldwin, along with Alco built USRA 2-8-8-2's for various railroads, including the N&W. The N&W Y3a 2050 at Illinois Railway Museum is an Alco product.
From what I've been reading lately, the 2-8-8-2 type was generally being called "Chesapeake" locomotives. Sorta new news to me, but I haven't drilled down deeper to verify this.
A correction from an earlier post: B&O did buy USRA 2-8-8-2's, they were rebuilt into 2-8-8-0's. Brooks Stover wrote an article converting the Lionel/Flyer Y3 to a B&O EL-5. I think it was in an NASG Dispatch or S Gaugian, but I haven't been able to locate it.
Rusty
With regards to the new Y3, it has a lot of features which of course adds to the bottom line cost. But in reality would most people interested in one but can’t commit due to cost be more tempted if they had less features.
I have a N&W from 2012 and I am quite happy just to have the bell, whistle, smoke unit and synchronised chuff, perhaps I am more easily pleased than others.
I don’t really need all the chatter from crew and tower, I don’t see a real need for the remote uncoupler etc etc.
If a dumbed down feature model as well as the full package version converted to more orders then there is a better likelihood of them getting into production.
Perhaps as the old saying goes ‘less can be more’
Just my thoughts.
