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@Ukaflyer posted:

With regards to the new Y3, it has a lot of features which of course adds to the bottom line cost. But in reality would most people interested in one but can’t commit due to cost be more tempted if they had less features.

I have a N&W from 2012 and I am quite happy just to have the bell, whistle, smoke unit and synchronised chuff, perhaps I am more easily pleased than others.

I don’t really need all the chatter from crew and tower, I don’t see a real need for the remote uncoupler etc etc.

If a dumbed down feature model as well as the full package version converted to more orders then there is a better likelihood of them getting into production.

Perhaps as the old saying goes ‘less can be more’

Just my thoughts.

Sounds like a FlyerChief version, with improved synchronization! Another thing Legacy S locomotives don't have is Bluetooth like some O Legacy locos do. But of course, newer FlyerChief locos have Bluetooth.

Mike

@Flyer 52 posted:

Sounds like a FlyerChief version, with improved synchronization!

Difficult to put Legacy and FlyerChief in the same sentence. The details, the paint, the lighting, the controls, the DCC compatibility, speed steps, momentum control, the sounds, the sound quality and other features are all in a different class for a Legacy loco.  My kids have 3 FlyerChiefs and I have the lots of Legacy locos.  It's toy time when theirs are on the rails and modeler time when mine are on. Yes, I know they are all ultimately toys, and no, I am not saying differentiators justify $1500 bucks, but I'll likely order one anyway. Just doubtful that any of these will get manufactured.

@jonnyspeed posted:

I would really like to see Lionel take a chance on a more road specific smaller legacy steam engine. Something like  PRR  K4, NYC Hudson (lots of variations), Erie K5, PRR B-6, etc… I’m not holding my breath, but I can dream.

In 2017, they built a Brass Hybrid ATSF Mikado on a USRA diecast chassis.  They "could" do it and they have two very good chassis to do it with.  The question is would they even try. 

Jacobpaul81, if you are referring to the Lionel O gauge brass hybrid, that was a sales failure even with the size of the O gauge market. It will not be done in S by Lionel. I am confident the S market will support new diecast Legacy steam releases with popular prototypes. The rerelease of the Y3 at $1,800 is marginal. I, for example already have two Y3's, I will buy a third one but not a 4th.

@AmFlyer posted:

I am confident the S market will support new diecast Legacy steam releases with popular prototypes.

There is an interesting way it could happen sooner than later but I doubt Lionel would entertain the concept.

If enough like minded people in the S community could agree on one model to be produced, they set up a crowd funding group. Everyone pays a set amount into it and then approaches Lionel with a plan and the amount raised will help off set design and some of the build costs. When the product is produced those people who supported the crowd funding would get that loco at a discounted price of the amount they put in and possible a bit more for supporting it. A very basic high level concept but I can’t see why it couldn’t work. Of course it would need a lot more discussion on both sides to dot the i’s and cross the t’s.

The biggest problem is getting enough people to agree on one loco and what they wish it to look like at the final production stage.

This way both the manufacturer and end user are involved in a product.

@AmFlyer posted:

Jacobpaul81, if you are referring to the Lionel O gauge brass hybrid, that was a sales failure even with the size of the O gauge market. It will not be done in S by Lionel. I am confident the S market will support new diecast Legacy steam releases with popular prototypes. The rerelease of the Y3 at $1,800 is marginal. I, for example already have two Y3's, I will buy a third one but not a 4th.

Are you sure?  The ATSF Mikado sold well enough - I know some folks didn't buy cause Lionel cut out the dealers - and now they all regret it because it's an excellent locomotive - and it was cheaper than the aforementioned AF Y3.   Lionel immediately moved to make a N&W K2 - a bad choice - as 3rd rail had just manufactured these and still had them in stock - so it got dropped.  But Lionel has since made a GS-1, a set of 4-4-0s, and have announced a 2-10-0 with plans for future versions using that chassis.  The Mike must not have been a failure - if they are continuing with the hybrid production.

Last edited by Jacobpaul81

Maybe we are are talking about different engines. The O gauge brass hybrid was not a big seller, today some potential purchasers may be regretting they passed on it. The 2022 Big Book O gauge Vision Line steamers have some separately applied parts but they are diecast engines at $2,100. They are also O72 minimum diameter. In S gauge that would be 27"R equivalent. If Lionel cataloged a $2,100 engine with high rail wheels and a 27" minimum radius I bet they would get less than 100 orders, so it would not be made.

Sorry for the double post, I keep leaving out some additional items. Lionel has no current plans to make S gauge equipment with scale wheels for those who operate on Code 100 or smaller track. They have so far ceded that market to AM and now Scale Trains. There are many high rail operators who use DCC to run their layouts. Most engines are Gilbert with can motor conversions and DCC decoders. The S gauge Legacy system is DCC compatible for these operators.

@AmFlyer posted:

Maybe we are are talking about different engines. The O gauge brass hybrid was not a big seller, today some potential purchasers may be regretting they passed on it. The 2022 Big Book O gauge Vision Line steamers have some separately applied parts but they are diecast engines at $2,100. They are also O72 minimum diameter.

As far as I can tell the brass/dicast locomotive have been successful because they are Build to Order and therefore sold out.  You don't really see them on the secondary market.  As mentioned earlier, the N&W K2 4-8-2 didn't garner enough preorders annd didn't get made, so that one could be a considered a failure.  The Strasburg/Great Western 2-10-0  in the 2021 V2 catalog was met with great enthusiasm and I would assume accompanying preorders because there's no word of the locomotive being cancelled.  Just because there's no brass/diecast hybrid in the 2022 V1 catalog doesn't mean the program is a failure.  The hybrid locomotives weren't planned on being in every catalog.

Many of the O Gaugers have gotten beyond the "O31 mentality" as I call it, or otherwise Lionel wouldn't even be making the O72 diecast monsters for all these years.

In S gauge that would be 27"R equivalent. If Lionel cataloged a $2,100 engine with high rail wheels and a 27" minimum radius I bet they would get less than 100 orders, so it would not be made.

Well, the Flyer Y3 (and will still do  R20...) is pushing near that $2,100 price at $1,800.  Time will tell if there are any cancellations due to price.

Rusty

Thanks Ben, definitely something to keep in mind.

Rusty, thanks for the updates on my comments. I am hoping Lionel will make several new engines. My opinion is that if a high rail Legacy engine will not run on 20"R curves, orders will take a big hit. A 4-8-2 could be a winner, same as a Hudson, 0-8-0 or an 0-6-0. A 2-10-0 would be problematical to design for 20"R curves. Since I have 30"R minimum curves I would buy the larger rigid wheelbase engines but there may not be enough orders to get one made.

@NotInWI posted:

For what it’s worth, Mr Muffin sent an email saying that any legacy engine (I think just steam???) ordered through him can be weathered for free by Harry Hieke.  I asked if that applied to the 2-8-8-2 in S and he said yes.  

Ben

The way I am seeing this from Mr Muffins website is that he has the new Y3’s discounted down to $1619.99  If you take him up on the offer of free weathering (which is a service he offers for $120) then you are getting the Y3 for the same price as Charles Ro ($1500) which sounds like a good deal if the weathering is what you want. If you don’t want the free weathering it will still cost you $1619.99 so you might as well then order from CR.

@AmFlyer posted:

Thanks Ben, definitely something to keep in mind.

Rusty, thanks for the updates on my comments. I am hoping Lionel will make several new engines. My opinion is that if a high rail Legacy engine will not run on 20"R curves, orders will take a big hit. A 4-8-2 could be a winner, same as a Hudson, 0-8-0 or an 0-6-0. A 2-10-0 would be problematical to design for 20"R curves. Since I have 30"R minimum curves I would buy the larger rigid wheelbase engines but there may not be enough orders to get one made.

A 2-10-0 doing R20 wouldn't be impossible, it just depends on the 2-10-0.  The Pennsy I-1 could be an issue, but the Baldwin Strasburg 2-10-0 has a shorter rigid wheelbase than a Santa Fe 2900 class 4-8-4, which AM has.  A Hirail AM Northern will go around R20.  Admittedly it looks a little ridiculous going around that sharp a curve, but it can be done.

Even the Y3 looks a little funky on R20 (picture taken from a passing Martian War Machine...)  The Y3's saving grace is the two point articulation originally developed by Rivarrossi for their HO Models rather than the prototypical single point articulation Lionel uses on their O Gauge models, which does restrict them to O72.

Y3 Overhang

One of the things that hinders S is being wedded to the R20 curves.  But that's a different discussion...

I'm not expecting Lionel to make a 2-10-0 in S anyway.  That's River Raisin territory.

But, I agree there are other Flyer locomotives that could entice S folks: SP GS4 Daylight (4449), N&W J (611),  UP FEF3 (844) and even the NYC J1 or J3a Hudsons, as long as the Hudsons were not simple recreations of the Gilbert model.  Even a rerelease of the Challenger or a properly scaled Big Boy (and not a rehash of the K-line model.)

Given the new and improved price of the Y3, I wouldn't even begin to speculate on what a newly tooled Flyer steam locomotive would be priced at.

However realistically, I would consider us lucky if the Mikados make the 2023 V1 catalog.  Although if and when the Mikado comes out, I expect it be priced at least 10% higher than the Pacifics.

Rusty

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Last edited by Rusty Traque

They definitely would have sold more units if they had done the Mikado.  There are alot of people in S whose layouts or budget won't accommodate an engine this large and expensive.

As before, the effort to put something else out is appreciated, but where is the marketing dept?  Didn't they look into depth of pool of buyers for this?  In some ways this looks a planned failure and possible excuse to drop S.

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