2022 American Flyer

@Francine posted:

They definitely would have sold more units if they had done the Mikado.  There are alot of people in S whose layouts or budget won't accommodate an engine this large and expensive.

As before, the effort to put something else out is appreciated, but where is the marketing dept?  Didn't they look into depth of pool of buyers for this?  In some ways this looks a planned failure and possible excuse to drop S.

My photo a couple of posts above show the Y3 can do R20, so that's not really a consideration for those with small layouts, at least operationally speaking.

As to the price?  Well, that's the rub.  Time will tell if it has an effect on pre-orders.  Personally, I have a Y3 and don't need another.  Although, if an N&W version would be offered as 2050 (the only surviving Y3 at Illinois Railway Museum) I would have to give it some serious thought, even though 2050 is a Y3b and not a Y3a like Lionel's model, the differences are "close enough for government work."

As to Mikados, maybe next year.  I'm guessing Lionel figures the Mikado is too similar to the Pacific (they share the boiler and tender) to be released in sequence.  Expect the Mikado to be at least 10% higher in price than the Pacific's (gut feeling.)

Rusty

Over all: meh…

• I’m in agreement on Rusty’s assessment of electronics.
• I don’t need more trains that are rehashes.
• Moving has shown me that I have more trains that I need.
• The Y3 costing over $1700? Then you have to buy the controlling system?  No way.

Unless something really different comes along, like the bunk and kitchen cars, I’m done buying any more trains. 

I'll order one. The Y3 is regarded as the best S loco released by Lionel. Now we get whistle stream. Just in the last year inflation has gone up 7%. Wages are up globally. Microchip prices have skyrocketed. We have been offered a few really good deals in the last few years. 1500 it's not completely terrible for an articulated loco. It just msg may not be in everyone's budget.

@Francine posted:

They definitely would have sold more units if they had done the Mikado.  There are alot of people in S whose layouts or budget won't accommodate an engine this large and expensive.

As before, the effort to put something else out is appreciated, but where is the marketing dept?  Didn't they look into depth of pool of buyers for this?  In some ways this looks a planned failure and possible excuse to drop S.

You know Francine, I had the same thought but, I hope not.

Ray

@poniaj posted:

Over all: meh…

• I’m in agreement on Rusty’s assessment of electronics.
• <sip>
• Then you have to buy the controlling system?  No way.

Ah, Jerry, many of us really like the "sparky stuff".

Bob

I really like this AF catalog.  I would buy more except for major price points.  It shows some creativity.  If Lionel wants to know what I would like to see if they have any money for new tooling, I would ask them to spend it on one of the following in random order:

1) Modern Rolling Stock

2) New Fast Track (RR crossing or Re-railer/crossing)

3) Any new engine we have been asking for.  Either Steam or Diesel.

I know Lionel has said if you ask 20 Flyer collectors what they want they will come up with 25 different items.  All I can say to that is at least do 1 of the 25.  A majority of people will be happy with anything new.  

Maybe $1799 is a test to see what we would pay for newly tooled items.

—Rocco—

@Rocco posted:

I really like this AF catalog.  I would buy more except for major price points.  It shows some creativity.  If Lionel wants to know what I would like to see if they have any money for new tooling, I would ask them to spend it on one of the following in random order:

1) Modern Rolling Stock

Like the 57' mechanical reefer cancelled EIGHT years ago on the date they were scheduled for delivery:

2) New Fast Track (RR crossing or Re-railer/crossing)

Lionel cataloged and cancelled in 2013 a FasTrack operating grade crossing, which I think would have been a knockout.

3) Any new engine we have been asking for.  Either Steam or Diesel.

SD40-2....w/scale wheel conversion...

I know Lionel has said if you ask 20 Flyer collectors what they want they will come up with 25 different items.  All I can say to that is at least do 1 of the 25.  A majority of people will be happy with anything new.  

Maybe $1799 is a test to see what we would pay for newly tooled items.

Except the Y3 isn't new tooling.

Rusty

—Rocco—

@Bob Bubeck posted:

Ah, Jerry, many of us really like the "sparky stuff".

Bob

Yeah, I believe a number of us have the control system, I do and love using it. I agree on the price point, $1800.  is a little stiff for me. Fortunately for me there is a Y3 living here. I am in the market for a Pacific, that would be for a repaint to head up my Pioneer Limited.

I am one also who does not need any more trains but, maybe room for one l want.

Ray

I ordered a pair 2-8-8-2s, but Lionel could have sold me SO much more over the past two catalogs...

Since everyone else has left their personal reason for why they aren't buying, I'll leave my thoughts for Lionel as someone who wants to buy more Lionel S products and has purchased 2 Berks and has 4 more Legacy steam engines on order (6+ when they release offer Mikados)

I would like to see more scale proportioned highly detailed Hi-Rail offerings for engines, passenger cars (add-on details, scale coupler pads, detailed interiors with figures, sound), rolling stock, cabooses (new tooling with cameras would be awesome), etc... If I had my choice, I'd prefer SCALE over Hi-Rail, but since Lionel has decided that they'd rather stick with Hi-Rail I can live with that compromise.  If Lionel stays the course, then most of my future train budget will likely go to Scale Trains for my S purchases.

In the meantime, I'm thankful for N scale- new scale products released every month, including many designed and made here in the USA.

In 1998 Charlotte Montgomery, group product manager at Lionel at the time, informed the S Gaugian that Lionel had "brand new tooling" for an SD40-2 to be inroduced later in the year. That would make sense--the second most popular EMD locomotive with almost 4,000 sold. It never appeared. I agree with Rusty that the SD40-2 would be a popular choice that Lionel could continue producing in a wide variety of paint liveries for a long time. Offering scale wheels as an option could only guarantee its success.

The mechanical reefer was probably withdrawn for lack of pre-orders. That hesitancy on the part of buyers may have been caused by the initial offering of the cylindrical hoppers guaranteed to appeal to no one: 1) scale wheels that would not work for high-railers who represent the majority of S scale modelers, and 2) huge AF couplers, "flood pants" height off the rails, and fantasy paint schemes mocked by true scalers--who couldn't use the hoppers either because the wheels were out of gauge. To Lionel's credit they made a number of changes to this model to make it much more appealing. But we lost the mechanical reefer.

The flaws so apparent in the first cylindrical hopper would suggest that rather than asking 20 Flyonel collectors, Lionel asked no one for that release. There have been some real hits in the past few years, however. The Mikado, Pacific, Challenger, U33C (with road-specific details on several models in the first release), SD70ACe, ES44AC, Y3, and the Berkshire were all nicely detailed and good runners. The latter versions even accommodated DCC.  If Lionel were to standardize diesel wheelsets, provide scale wheelset options for easy swapping out of high-rail sets, and standardize included scale coupler pads, they would cover most of the S community at little risk, little cost. Maybe 14 out of 20 S modelers would agree on that.

Terry O'Kelly

@TOKELLY posted:

In 1998 Charlotte Montgomery, group product manager at Lionel at the time, informed the S Gaugian that Lionel had "brand new tooling" for an SD40-2 to be inroduced later in the year. That would make sense--the second most popular EMD locomotive with almost 4,000 sold. It never appeared. I agree with Rusty that the SD40-2 would be a popular choice that Lionel could continue producing in a wide variety of paint liveries for a long time. Offering scale wheels as an option could only guarantee its success.

The mechanical reefer was probably withdrawn for lack of pre-orders. That hesitancy on the part of buyers may have been caused by the initial offering of the cylindrical hoppers guaranteed to appeal to no one: 1) scale wheels that would not work for high-railers who represent the majority of S scale modelers, and 2) huge AF couplers, "flood pants" height off the rails, and fantasy paint schemes mocked by true scalers--who couldn't use the hoppers either because the wheels were out of gauge. To Lionel's credit they made a number of changes to this model to make it much more appealing. But we lost the mechanical reefer.

The flaws so apparent in the first cylindrical hopper would suggest that rather than asking 20 Flyonel collectors, Lionel asked no one for that release. There have been some real hits in the past few years, however. The Mikado, Pacific, Challenger, U33C (with road-specific details on several models in the first release), SD70ACe, ES44AC, Y3, and the Berkshire were all nicely detailed and good runners. The latter versions even accommodated DCC.  If Lionel were to standardize diesel wheelsets, provide scale wheelset options for easy swapping out of high-rail sets, and standardize included scale coupler pads, they would cover most of the S community at little risk, little cost. Maybe 14 out of 20 S modelers would agree on that.

Terry O'Kelly

I feel the SD40-2 tooling comment was smoke and mirrors coming from Lionel.  They may have had research, but no steel was cut.(IMO)  Seriously, the locomotive was cancelled shortly after the brochures came out.

The "model" photographed was nothing more than a photoshopped Athearn HO model complete with the crimp on handrails that Athearn used at the time.   Even the mounting for the Athearn snap-on coupler box is visible above the photoshopped coupler..

The boogy-boogy thing about the mechanical reefer was it was cancelled on the day they were anticipated to be delivered.  My LHS showed me the letter.  Why not announce the cancellation shortly after the pre-order window was closed?

99.9% of the scalers that bought the cylindrical hoppers figured out how to put scale truck on them, even me.  It took me about 10 minutes once I saw what was involved to put scale trucks under the car.

Yet Lionel treated it like rocket science.  Rather than making the bolster the proper height, they tooled up for a pad to lower a Kadee coupler.

Simply put with regards to Flyer and scale, there's the right way, the wrong way and the Lionel way.

Rusty

I know I am in the minority with still preferring conventional control and not caring much about all the fancy new electronics (I mostly collect link coupler) but I will buy new items when they interest me, for example I picked up the Alton Limited they did some years back. Looking at the offerings from the past few years, nothing has grabbed my attention at all. I know S takes a back seat for Lionel but it seems everyone is wanting new motive power and Lionel isn't listening.

I understand no one can agree on any particular model (show me a hobby with any real consensus) but they have to realize you can't just keep rehashing the same thing over and over and charging more for it.

Why not tool up a new Hudson? You can say they are over done but they always sell. It is a safe way to truly test the waters. After that start tooling up some Northerns. Some of the engineering and tooling could be shared across doing 611, 4449 and 844. Those always sell well also.

Finally even though I prefer steam, I really don't understand the lack of diesels. Diesels are the more cost effective option to put out. Why aren't they offering more of those?

Why no doghouse on the Y3's for this run? Can we push for them to have them? I just might go for the PRR. Is that coming in dark green?  I like the whistle steam.

@cswalter posted:

Why no doghouse on the Y3's for this run? Can we push for them to have them? I just might go for the PRR. Is that coming in dark green?  I like the whistle steam.

Well, it sez here:

Take "Road Specific Details" for what it's worth.

I seriously doubt the Pennsy bothered to repaint their Y3's DLGE.

Rusty

I was comparing the new Y3 vs. the older Y3.........The tender on the remake is not the tender that was used on the original Y3.........it has 4 wheel's trucks instead of the 6 wheel's on the original   check out the rivet pattern............not correct for N&W anyway.........I already have a 2020 Y3...........why would I want one that is not correct?    I paid 500.00 for my 2020 from Lionel.  2000.00 for a model that has a incorrect tender..... wrong trucks'........ and........ no doghouse......that is a lot for smoke to push out of the whistle (maybe or maybe not).....

I bet someone is working on whistle smoke right now......just a matter of time and he will show all of us how to mod. our Y3's if we want.   

Regards

Jackie

PS

Just rechecked catalog from Lionel..........the Santa Fe....Pennsy.......Union Pacific .... have correct tender showing....... 6 wheel truck ........ WHY.....................................

If Lionel produces new Legacy engines I will buy them. A Legacy Hudson would be great, A Northern is probably OK but I already have three TMCC Northerns. New Diesels are also great. Fortunately I am not a rivet counter but I do want the new PRR Y3 to have a tender doghouse like the prior run did. I hope Lionel gets the green correct. My current PRR Y3 has the correct green, to tell it is green it needs to be beside a black engine, Then people say "oh, it really is a very dark green!" Its the same paint Lionel used on the 2005 PRR light Mikado's.

My view on the price is that we S gaugers were living on borrowed time with pricing so much less than the O gauge line.

@William Jack posted:

I was comparing the new Y3 vs. the older Y3.........The tender on the remake is not the tender that was used on the original Y3.........it has 4 wheel's trucks instead of the 6 wheel's on the original   check out the rivet pattern............not correct for N&W anyway.........I already have a 2020 Y3...........why would I want one that is not correct?    I paid 500.00 for my 2020 from Lionel.  2000.00 for a model that has a incorrect tender..... wrong trucks'........ and........ no doghouse......that is a lot for smoke to push out of the whistle (maybe or maybe not).....

I bet someone is working on whistle smoke right now......just a matter of time and he will show all of us how to mod. our Y3's if we want.   

Regards

Jackie

PS

Just rechecked catalog from Lionel..........the Santa Fe....Pennsy.......Union Pacific .... have correct tender showing....... 6 wheel truck ........ WHY.....................................

The tender Lionel's using on the 2020 V1 N&W Y3 and the other 5 is their Pacific/Mikado tender.

Lionel's doing it to add "variety" at minimum cost most likely.

I doubt anyone is working on aftermarket whistle steam for previous locomotives because the TMCC or Legacy electronics and software also has to be changed to operate it.

Rusty

@William Jack posted:

I was comparing the new Y3 vs. the older Y3.........The tender on the remake is not the tender that was used on the original Y3.........it has 4 wheel's trucks instead of the 6 wheel's on the original   check out the rivet pattern............not correct for N&W anyway.........I already have a 2020 Y3...........why would I want one that is not correct?    I paid 500.00 for my 2020 from Lionel.  2000.00 for a model that has a incorrect tender..... wrong trucks'........ and........ no doghouse......that is a lot for smoke to push out of the whistle (maybe or maybe not).....

I bet someone is working on whistle smoke right now......just a matter of time and he will show all of us how to mod. our Y3's if we want.   

Regards

Jackie

PS

Just rechecked catalog from Lionel..........the Santa Fe....Pennsy.......Union Pacific .... have correct tender showing....... 6 wheel truck ........ WHY.....................................

Yes, I agree. I want to pay for something that is correct. I want the doghouse.  Please!

@Rusty Traque posted:

Well, it sez here:

Take "Road Specific Details" for what it's worth.

I seriously doubt the Pennsy bothered to repaint their Y3's DLGE.

Rusty

Lionel's  original run for the Y's had two difference that I know,,,,,,,You had a step pilot(N&W) and a road pilot (UP)...... the UP Y3's had number boards on top of boiler like all UP steam engines............I purchased a road pilot and put it on one of my N&W Y3's .....this gave me  two Y3's .....yet each one has a small  difference.

Jackie

I went into the train room and took pictures of the Y3 with the 6 axle tender with dog house, and also with the 4 axle tender from the 2005 PRR light Mikado. I think both look good.

Note in the Lionel page Rusty posted above the length is given as 21.5”. That is the exact length over the couplers of the Y3 with the six axle tender. The same length with the 4 axle tender is 20”. Impossible to tell what the delivered engine will be with the contradictory information.