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OK.  All the fancy-schmancy electronic gee-gaws aren't my wheelhouse, so I'll skip those.

Y3's:

Nice to see them back, probably Lionel's best Flyer locomotive.  $700 increase over the 2012 run.  Ouch.  Whistle steam included.  DCC compatibility included.  Can't help but notice the illustrated models suffer from the rear engine eccentric crank being in the wrong position.  Hopefully that will be corrected in production...

PA's:

As mentioned by Erie Modeler above, pilot covers have been added like the original Gilbert PA's.  Nice touch, makes the locomotives more appealing when viewed.  Looks like the pilot cover might be removable as the features mention a non-operating front coupler is included.  $800.  Up $100 over 2017.  No mention of DCC compatibility.

The Gold Bonnet set:

Yep, there was a prototype for this Santa Fe set.  It was a GE sales promotional train in 1960 consisting of the PA, baggage car and three coaches.  It lasted only a month or so traveling in California.  The model was a good seller in O for both Lionel and MTH, so it was only natural it would show up in the Flyer lineup.

FlyerChief Freight Sets:

Nothing really new here except for a roadname change and $20 price increase on the Gravel set.

Passenger Car Sets:

Four sets with add on sets in roadnames to match the PA's in this catalog.  The New Have four car set suffers from cut-'n-pastitis, is listed as a two car set with the two car price.

Freight Cars:

Wood chip hoppers are a good adaptation for the triple hopper cars, although the loads look like tan painted coal loads.  2 numbers for the wood chip cars.  4 numbers for the coal hoppers.  Over all, a good selection of roadnames for all of the freight cars.  Looks like some cars went up $5.00.

Polar Express:

New boxcar and locomotive upgraded to Bluetooth 5.0

Track:

No new additions.

Conclusion:

Overall, I think it's a pretty good catalog, especially for the Flyer traditionalist.  Price increases were to be expected, but with the Y3 nearly doubling in price in 10 years, well that might cool some interest.  Is whistle steam worth an extra $700???  We'll see.

I always hold out on very teeny-tiny glimmer of hope that there would a new scale freight car (like the 2014 cancelled 57' mechanical reefer) but nope, not this time.

Rusty

Last edited by Rusty Traque


Y3's:

Nice to see them back, probably Lionel's best Flyer locomotive.  $700 increase over the 2012 run.  Ouch.  Whistle steam included.  DCC compatibility included.  Can't help but notice the illustrated models suffer from the rear engine eccentric crank being in the wrong position.  Hopefully that will be corrected in production...



Let’s hope they correct the crank for you. Then you need to put in a back order asap for a spare wheel assembly before others get one before you.

Nice to see the Y3 back. At the price listed it would be nice if the Legacy boards were the O gauge 200 absolute speed step versions rather than the 200 relative speed step version used so far in S gauge. However I doubt that is the case since the engine is DCC compatible and does not include Bluetooth. I plan to order at least the PRR version.



PA's:

As mentioned by Erie Modeler above, pilot covers have been added like the original Gilbert PA's.  Nice touch, makes the locomotives more appealing when viewed.  Looks like the pilot cover might be removable as the features mention a non-operating front coupler is included.  $800.  Up $100 over 2017.  No mention of DCC compatibility.



DCC compatibility is confirmed on page 11.

@Ed Kelly posted:

Just curious.  Does the Y-3 come with scale wheels?

Thanks,

Ed

The only scale wheel option was for the original run of Y3's back in 2012.  It was an after market conversion done by Fred Rouse of S Scale Locomotive and Supply.  The conversion was $500 plus another $75 for programming in DCC, which wasn't included by Lionel at the time.

Fred did conversions for as long as his material lasted.  He retains the SS&LS name, but has sold off the tools and inventory.

Rusty

@AmFlyer posted:

I doubt AM will be reworking their 4-8-4. Why not just go with River Raisin. Lionel is not in the S scale market, only the nicely detailed high rail business.

River Raisin hasn't made a 4-8-4.  They did make SP 4-8-2's and they still command over 2 grand when you can find one.

Plus most RR large steam requires at least 36" radius.  My MT4 didn't like my 33" radius at all.

Rusty

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  • mceclip0

Rusty, that is a nice engine. I look at RR once in a while but some of their engines will not work on my 30"R track. I was looking at the RR Sharks in their inventory but the PRR would be a no go because with scale wheels I need at least two powered units to pull on the 2.5% grades. That leaves the NYC A&B units. After paying for the conversions to Legacy and shipping it would be over two grand for a road name I did not especially want. Guess I will stay with Lionel for now.

It is all too typical to comment on the pricing, but color me amazed. The Lionel Y3 is a great loco, but $1700 MSRP (Opps! $1799 MSRP) ? $700 MSRP for the Legacy Pacific now feels like a bargain in comparison and suggests that the new Y3 should be about $1400+ MSRP. The new Pacific is a smaller engine with one motor, but it has all of the features of the new Y3 except whistle steam. The new PA sets are appealing in decoration, but pricey for what they are. We are still looking at ALCo shells like Gilbert's and passenger cars whose design with silhouettes and no interiors was developed in 1952-53. All of this reminds one of the 'bridge too far' pricing of the canceled Reading and Northern set.

The fact that I own a Y3 and the pricing of the reissue dampens my zeal to add to the fleet. The trains that are the PA sets should have been thoroughly redone some time ago (I am hoping that the PA pilot insert will appear as a separate part). I could rationalize high pricing if production had been repatriated, but it hasn't been.

Nice trains and a pretty catalog, but ugh.

Respectfully,

Bob

Last edited by Bob Bubeck
@Bob Bubeck posted:

It is all too typical to comment on the pricing, but color me amazed. The Lionel Y3 is a great loco, but $1700 MSRP? $700 MSRP for the Legacy Pacific now feels like a bargain in comparison and suggests that the new Y3 should be about $1400+ MSRP.


Bob

Make that $1800 ($1799.99) Bob.  I figured a new Y3 would have weighed in at around $1500, so we're close there.  I guess the modifications for whistle steam and fitting for the Pacific tenders on some models are the extra $300.   I also wonder how far "road specific detailing" will go.  The illustrations are generic photoshops.

In spite of all that the Y3 remains the best Flyer locomotive Lionel has put out IMHO.  The Berk is a close second.

I'm reasonably happy with my 2012 (eccentric crank issue notwithstanding) era Y3 and as I don't do smoke, whistle steam doesn't add any value for me.

Rusty

Make that $1800 ($1799.99) Bob.  I figured a new Y3 would have weighed in at around $1500, so we're close there.  I guess the modifications for whistle steam and fitting for the Pacific tenders on some models are the extra $300.   I also wonder how far "road specific detailing" will go.  The illustrations are generic photoshops.

In spite of all that the Y3 remains the best Flyer locomotive Lionel has put out IMHO.  The Berk is a close second.

I'm reasonably happy with my 2012 (eccentric crank issue notwithstanding) era Y3 and as I don't do smoke, whistle steam doesn't add any value for me.

Rusty

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@Chuck K posted:

Well, I'll buy a Legacy engine but not sure which one.  As always with Flyonel, I need to research which of these are actually prototypical roadnames for that engine type. I know the Clinchfield 2-8-8-2 is, so that might be my choice.

All the road names Lionel's offering had 2-8-8-2's in some way shape or form, except for the B&O.  B&O had 2-8-8-4's and 2-8-8-0's.

Specific for the Y3's: Santa Fe, Union Pacific and Pennsylvania all bought Y3's second hand from the Norfolk & Western to ease power crunches during WWII.  Virginian's Y3's were bought third hand from the Santa Fe.

Rusty

Last edited by Rusty Traque

The original run of N&W Y3s had a "dog house" on the tender (one of the other road names also had one).  The pictures in the catalog don't seem to have one.  Of course that could just be cut and paste and not reflect what the actual product will be. I ended up buying the UP version but I don't have an N&W steam engine.  I'd buy one of the new N&Ws if it had that feature.

All the road names Lionel's offering had 2-8-8-2's in some way shape or form, except for the B&O.  B&O had 2-8-8-4's and 2-8-8-0's.

Specific for the Y3's: Santa Fe, Union Pacific and Pennsylvania all bought Y3's second hand from the Norfolk & Western to ease power crunches during WWII.  Virginian's Y3's were bought third hand from the Santa Fe.

Rusty

ATSF had them for about 2 - 3 years. If I recall correctly, they picked them up in 1945 and they were gone by 1948. At the time, ATSF needed all their existing 2-10-2s and 2-10-4s for long haul freight service.  The Y3s were brought over as helpers for Raton - which was generally the 2-10-2s job.  ATSF didn't like them cause they were slow and clogged up the pass so they quickly dumped them.  One was briefly assigned to Argentine in the hump yard.  Doghouses were all removed on receipt.

Last edited by Jacobpaul81

I can see that most everyone is interested in the Y-3's  The price is so out there that I will pass on them....don't  get me wrong.... the only thing  that could be better than a Y-3 is a S gauge version of the Y-6b......I would pay extra for a legacy Y-6b.......

Lionel.....Listen please.........you have now priced me out of your market!!!!!!!!!!

I have decided to cancel my order for the 75th an.........set.    I don't have room for it.  Plus  I must save money to buy  5.00 gas......thanks Joe. ( OK maybe 6 or 7 dollars)

regards

Jackie

@Jacobpaul81 posted:

ATSF had them for about 2 - 3 years. If I recall correctly, they picked them up in 1945 and they were gone by 1948. At the time, ATSF needed all their existing 2-10-2s and 2-10-4s for long haul freight service.  The Y3s were brought over as helpers for Raton - which was generally the 2-10-2s job.  ATSF didn't like them cause they were slow and clogged up the pass so they quickly dumped them.  One was briefly assigned to Argentine in the hump yard.  Doghouses were all removed on receipt.

Plus one of the seven Y3's Santa Fe owned (No. 1797) was scrapped by the railroad in 1947.  The other six were bought by the Virginian in 1948.

Rusty

Make that $1800 ($1799.99) Bob.  I figured a new Y3 would have weighed in at around $1500, so we're close there.  I guess the modifications for whistle steam and fitting for the Pacific tenders on some models are the extra $300.   I also wonder how far "road specific detailing" will go.  The illustrations are generic photoshops.

In spite of all that the Y3 remains the best Flyer locomotive Lionel has put out IMHO.  The Berk is a close second.

I'm reasonably happy with my 2012 (eccentric crank issue notwithstanding) era Y3 and as I don't do smoke, whistle steam doesn't add any value for me.

Rusty

Thanks. Corrected the MSRP, but this only makes matters more penurious.   I agree that the Y3 is a great loco. Love my PRR (HH1) which does not have the crank issue. I might go a step further than you have and claim that it is the best scale-sized detailed hi-rail S gauge locomotive, period. This may be part of the problem. Not much competition at this time. I would have preferred a reissue of the Challenger with correction of detail errors and all of the betterments made afterwards with the Y3.

For those who purchase one, have fun! I know you will.

Bob

Last edited by Bob Bubeck

As usual, I think I have a different perspective than most others when it comes to this catalog.

The only item I’m interested in is the 2-8-8-2. The rest are too toylike and not what I’m looking for. The price increase is to be expected. This engine has all the features of the O scale Legacy Models, and as someone who used to buy a lot of O scale Legacy steam the price doesn’t bother me as much. I’d rather have a 1:64 scale model that runs on 2 rails than a 1:48 scale 3 rail model. I was hoping they would do the Mikado next, but I’ll pre-order a pair of the 2-8-8-2s. I am doubtful that they will get enough orders though so we’ll just have to wait and see. Even though not listed as Built to Order, I assume that’s the case.

Has anyone asked Ryan if they will have Kadee coupler pads on the tender like the Berks and Pacifics (supposedly)?

I would really like to see Lionel take a chance on a more road specific smaller legacy steam engine. Something like  PRR  K4, NYC Hudson (lots of variations), Erie K5, PRR B-6, etc… I’m not holding my breath, but I can dream.

More realistically, I’d like to see a 2nd run of roadnames and numbers for the Pacifics. I’d like an Erie (or 2) and 2nd B&O number please. And when they do the Mikados I hope they offer 2 numbers for each road.

FYI.............................

Small correction..................From what I have just read on Y-3's    Baldwin build these engines for many railroads in the early days........I just saw a picture of one of the CRR. Y-3's and  the one I saw had several different features on her.... Disc pilot wheels and trailing truck.... air pumps on boiler face and a road pilot instead of the footstep pilot...... will lionel  correct these problems or......................................

Regards

Jackie

Last edited by William Jack
@ctomita posted:

"It was road name specific in the 2012 run"

Yes, that's why I mentioned that NONE of the Y3s pictured in the catalog have the doghouse. Rusty pointed out that other railroads bought their Y3s from N&W so I guess they removed the dog house after receiving them.

Pennsy evidently retained the doghouses on their HH1's (Y3's) for most part. See page 78, of Staufer's Pennsy Power III. The Lionel/AF PRR HH1 from 2012 is correct in most every respect.

Bob

Jonathon, I think I have a similar perspective to yours. I plan to order a new Y3. The prices had to go up close to the O gauge engines to be viable. I would buy any of the engines you list if Lionel makes them.

My biggest gripe with the Lionel S gauge engines is except for the Big Boy, none of them have the O gauge absolute speed step boards. The 200 steps in S gauge are relative, and each engine model seems to be a very distant relative of the others. Some examples, speed step 15 on my Challengers gives the same speed as speed step 60 on the Big Boy. Speed step 15 on my older E-L U33 is the same speed as speed step 45 on my new Santa Fe U33. It is impossible to do a lash up unless the two engines are the same model from the same production run. For $1,800 I would expect Lionel to make these run as the O gauge engines do.

FYI.............................

Small correction..................From what I have just read on Y-3's    Baldwin build these engines for many railroads in the early days........I just saw a picture of one of the CRR. Y-3's and  the one I saw had several different features on her.... Disc pilot wheels and trailing truck.... air pumps on boiler face and a road pilot instead of the footstep pilot...... will lionel  correct these problems or......................................

Regards

Jackie

Y3 is the N&W classification.  The "Y" covers all of N&W's 2-8-8-2's.

Baldwin, along with Alco built USRA 2-8-8-2's for various railroads, including the N&W.  The N&W Y3a 2050 at Illinois Railway Museum is an Alco product.

From what I've been reading lately, the 2-8-8-2 type was generally being called "Chesapeake" locomotives.  Sorta new news to me, but I haven't drilled down deeper to verify this.

A correction from an earlier post: B&O did buy USRA 2-8-8-2's, they were rebuilt into 2-8-8-0's.  Brooks Stover wrote an article converting the Lionel/Flyer Y3 to a B&O EL-5.  I think it was in an NASG Dispatch or S Gaugian, but I haven't been able to locate it.

Rusty

With regards to the new Y3, it has a lot of features which of course adds to the bottom line cost. But in reality would most people interested in one but can’t commit due to cost be more tempted if they had less features.

I have a N&W from 2012 and I am quite happy just to have the bell, whistle, smoke unit and synchronised chuff, perhaps I am more easily pleased than others.

I don’t really need all the chatter from crew and tower, I don’t see a real need for the remote uncoupler etc etc.

If a dumbed down feature model as well as the full package version converted to more orders then there is a better likelihood of them getting into production.

Perhaps as the old saying goes ‘less can be more’

Just my thoughts.

Last edited by Ukaflyer
@Ukaflyer posted:

With regards to the new Y3, it has a lot of features which of course adds to the bottom line cost. But in reality would most people interested in one but can’t commit due to cost be more tempted if they had less features.

I have a N&W from 2012 and I am quite happy just to have the bell, whistle, smoke unit and synchronised chuff, perhaps I am more easily pleased than others.

I don’t really need all the chatter from crew and tower, I don’t see a real need for the remote uncoupler etc etc.

If a dumbed down feature model as well as the full package version converted to more orders then there is a better likelihood of them getting into production.

Perhaps as the old saying goes ‘less can be more’

Just my thoughts.

Sounds like a FlyerChief version, with improved synchronization! Another thing Legacy S locomotives don't have is Bluetooth like some O Legacy locos do. But of course, newer FlyerChief locos have Bluetooth.

Mike

@Flyer 52 posted:

Sounds like a FlyerChief version, with improved synchronization!

Difficult to put Legacy and FlyerChief in the same sentence. The details, the paint, the lighting, the controls, the DCC compatibility, speed steps, momentum control, the sounds, the sound quality and other features are all in a different class for a Legacy loco.  My kids have 3 FlyerChiefs and I have the lots of Legacy locos.  It's toy time when theirs are on the rails and modeler time when mine are on. Yes, I know they are all ultimately toys, and no, I am not saying differentiators justify $1500 bucks, but I'll likely order one anyway. Just doubtful that any of these will get manufactured.

@jonnyspeed posted:

I would really like to see Lionel take a chance on a more road specific smaller legacy steam engine. Something like  PRR  K4, NYC Hudson (lots of variations), Erie K5, PRR B-6, etc… I’m not holding my breath, but I can dream.

In 2017, they built a Brass Hybrid ATSF Mikado on a USRA diecast chassis.  They "could" do it and they have two very good chassis to do it with.  The question is would they even try. 

Jacobpaul81, if you are referring to the Lionel O gauge brass hybrid, that was a sales failure even with the size of the O gauge market. It will not be done in S by Lionel. I am confident the S market will support new diecast Legacy steam releases with popular prototypes. The rerelease of the Y3 at $1,800 is marginal. I, for example already have two Y3's, I will buy a third one but not a 4th.

@AmFlyer posted:

I am confident the S market will support new diecast Legacy steam releases with popular prototypes.

There is an interesting way it could happen sooner than later but I doubt Lionel would entertain the concept.

If enough like minded people in the S community could agree on one model to be produced, they set up a crowd funding group. Everyone pays a set amount into it and then approaches Lionel with a plan and the amount raised will help off set design and some of the build costs. When the product is produced those people who supported the crowd funding would get that loco at a discounted price of the amount they put in and possible a bit more for supporting it. A very basic high level concept but I can’t see why it couldn’t work. Of course it would need a lot more discussion on both sides to dot the i’s and cross the t’s.

The biggest problem is getting enough people to agree on one loco and what they wish it to look like at the final production stage.

This way both the manufacturer and end user are involved in a product.

@AmFlyer posted:

Jacobpaul81, if you are referring to the Lionel O gauge brass hybrid, that was a sales failure even with the size of the O gauge market. It will not be done in S by Lionel. I am confident the S market will support new diecast Legacy steam releases with popular prototypes. The rerelease of the Y3 at $1,800 is marginal. I, for example already have two Y3's, I will buy a third one but not a 4th.

Are you sure?  The ATSF Mikado sold well enough - I know some folks didn't buy cause Lionel cut out the dealers - and now they all regret it because it's an excellent locomotive - and it was cheaper than the aforementioned AF Y3.   Lionel immediately moved to make a N&W K2 - a bad choice - as 3rd rail had just manufactured these and still had them in stock - so it got dropped.  But Lionel has since made a GS-1, a set of 4-4-0s, and have announced a 2-10-0 with plans for future versions using that chassis.  The Mike must not have been a failure - if they are continuing with the hybrid production.

Last edited by Jacobpaul81

Maybe we are are talking about different engines. The O gauge brass hybrid was not a big seller, today some potential purchasers may be regretting they passed on it. The 2022 Big Book O gauge Vision Line steamers have some separately applied parts but they are diecast engines at $2,100. They are also O72 minimum diameter. In S gauge that would be 27"R equivalent. If Lionel cataloged a $2,100 engine with high rail wheels and a 27" minimum radius I bet they would get less than 100 orders, so it would not be made.

Sorry for the double post, I keep leaving out some additional items. Lionel has no current plans to make S gauge equipment with scale wheels for those who operate on Code 100 or smaller track. They have so far ceded that market to AM and now Scale Trains. There are many high rail operators who use DCC to run their layouts. Most engines are Gilbert with can motor conversions and DCC decoders. The S gauge Legacy system is DCC compatible for these operators.

@AmFlyer posted:

Maybe we are are talking about different engines. The O gauge brass hybrid was not a big seller, today some potential purchasers may be regretting they passed on it. The 2022 Big Book O gauge Vision Line steamers have some separately applied parts but they are diecast engines at $2,100. They are also O72 minimum diameter.

As far as I can tell the brass/dicast locomotive have been successful because they are Build to Order and therefore sold out.  You don't really see them on the secondary market.  As mentioned earlier, the N&W K2 4-8-2 didn't garner enough preorders annd didn't get made, so that one could be a considered a failure.  The Strasburg/Great Western 2-10-0  in the 2021 V2 catalog was met with great enthusiasm and I would assume accompanying preorders because there's no word of the locomotive being cancelled.  Just because there's no brass/diecast hybrid in the 2022 V1 catalog doesn't mean the program is a failure.  The hybrid locomotives weren't planned on being in every catalog.

Many of the O Gaugers have gotten beyond the "O31 mentality" as I call it, or otherwise Lionel wouldn't even be making the O72 diecast monsters for all these years.

In S gauge that would be 27"R equivalent. If Lionel cataloged a $2,100 engine with high rail wheels and a 27" minimum radius I bet they would get less than 100 orders, so it would not be made.

Well, the Flyer Y3 (and will still do  R20...) is pushing near that $2,100 price at $1,800.  Time will tell if there are any cancellations due to price.

Rusty

Thanks Ben, definitely something to keep in mind.

Rusty, thanks for the updates on my comments. I am hoping Lionel will make several new engines. My opinion is that if a high rail Legacy engine will not run on 20"R curves, orders will take a big hit. A 4-8-2 could be a winner, same as a Hudson, 0-8-0 or an 0-6-0. A 2-10-0 would be problematical to design for 20"R curves. Since I have 30"R minimum curves I would buy the larger rigid wheelbase engines but there may not be enough orders to get one made.

@NotInWI posted:

For what it’s worth, Mr Muffin sent an email saying that any legacy engine (I think just steam???) ordered through him can be weathered for free by Harry Hieke.  I asked if that applied to the 2-8-8-2 in S and he said yes.  

Ben

The way I am seeing this from Mr Muffins website is that he has the new Y3’s discounted down to $1619.99  If you take him up on the offer of free weathering (which is a service he offers for $120) then you are getting the Y3 for the same price as Charles Ro ($1500) which sounds like a good deal if the weathering is what you want. If you don’t want the free weathering it will still cost you $1619.99 so you might as well then order from CR.

@AmFlyer posted:

Thanks Ben, definitely something to keep in mind.

Rusty, thanks for the updates on my comments. I am hoping Lionel will make several new engines. My opinion is that if a high rail Legacy engine will not run on 20"R curves, orders will take a big hit. A 4-8-2 could be a winner, same as a Hudson, 0-8-0 or an 0-6-0. A 2-10-0 would be problematical to design for 20"R curves. Since I have 30"R minimum curves I would buy the larger rigid wheelbase engines but there may not be enough orders to get one made.

A 2-10-0 doing R20 wouldn't be impossible, it just depends on the 2-10-0.  The Pennsy I-1 could be an issue, but the Baldwin Strasburg 2-10-0 has a shorter rigid wheelbase than a Santa Fe 2900 class 4-8-4, which AM has.  A Hirail AM Northern will go around R20.  Admittedly it looks a little ridiculous going around that sharp a curve, but it can be done.

Even the Y3 looks a little funky on R20 (picture taken from a passing Martian War Machine...)  The Y3's saving grace is the two point articulation originally developed by Rivarrossi for their HO Models rather than the prototypical single point articulation Lionel uses on their O Gauge models, which does restrict them to O72.

Y3 Overhang

One of the things that hinders S is being wedded to the R20 curves.  But that's a different discussion...

I'm not expecting Lionel to make a 2-10-0 in S anyway.  That's River Raisin territory.

But, I agree there are other Flyer locomotives that could entice S folks: SP GS4 Daylight (4449), N&W J (611),  UP FEF3 (844) and even the NYC J1 or J3a Hudsons, as long as the Hudsons were not simple recreations of the Gilbert model.  Even a rerelease of the Challenger or a properly scaled Big Boy (and not a rehash of the K-line model.)

Given the new and improved price of the Y3, I wouldn't even begin to speculate on what a newly tooled Flyer steam locomotive would be priced at.

However realistically, I would consider us lucky if the Mikados make the 2023 V1 catalog.  Although if and when the Mikado comes out, I expect it be priced at least 10% higher than the Pacifics.

Rusty

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Last edited by Rusty Traque

They definitely would have sold more units if they had done the Mikado.  There are alot of people in S whose layouts or budget won't accommodate an engine this large and expensive.

As before, the effort to put something else out is appreciated, but where is the marketing dept?  Didn't they look into depth of pool of buyers for this?  In some ways this looks a planned failure and possible excuse to drop S.

@Francine posted:

They definitely would have sold more units if they had done the Mikado.  There are alot of people in S whose layouts or budget won't accommodate an engine this large and expensive.

As before, the effort to put something else out is appreciated, but where is the marketing dept?  Didn't they look into depth of pool of buyers for this?  In some ways this looks a planned failure and possible excuse to drop S.

My photo a couple of posts above show the Y3 can do R20, so that's not really a consideration for those with small layouts, at least operationally speaking.

As to the price?  Well, that's the rub.  Time will tell if it has an effect on pre-orders.  Personally, I have a Y3 and don't need another.  Although, if an N&W version would be offered as 2050 (the only surviving Y3 at Illinois Railway Museum) I would have to give it some serious thought, even though 2050 is a Y3b and not a Y3a like Lionel's model, the differences are "close enough for government work."

As to Mikados, maybe next year.  I'm guessing Lionel figures the Mikado is too similar to the Pacific (they share the boiler and tender) to be released in sequence.  Expect the Mikado to be at least 10% higher in price than the Pacific's (gut feeling.)

Rusty

Over all: meh…

  • I’m in agreement on Rusty’s assessment of electronics.
  • I don’t need more trains that are rehashes.
  • Moving has shown me that I have more trains that I need.
  • The Y3 costing over $1700? Then you have to buy the controlling system?  No way.

Unless something really different comes along, like the bunk and kitchen cars, I’m done buying any more trains. 

I'll order one. The Y3 is regarded as the best S loco released by Lionel. Now we get whistle stream. Just in the last year inflation has gone up 7%. Wages are up globally. Microchip prices have skyrocketed. We have been offered a few really good deals in the last few years. 1500 it's not completely terrible for an articulated loco. It just msg may not be in everyone's budget.

@Francine posted:

They definitely would have sold more units if they had done the Mikado.  There are alot of people in S whose layouts or budget won't accommodate an engine this large and expensive.

As before, the effort to put something else out is appreciated, but where is the marketing dept?  Didn't they look into depth of pool of buyers for this?  In some ways this looks a planned failure and possible excuse to drop S.

You know Francine, I had the same thought but, I hope not.

Ray

I really like this AF catalog.  I would buy more except for major price points.  It shows some creativity.  If Lionel wants to know what I would like to see if they have any money for new tooling, I would ask them to spend it on one of the following in random order:

1) Modern Rolling Stock

2) New Fast Track (RR crossing or Re-railer/crossing)

3) Any new engine we have been asking for.  Either Steam or Diesel.

I know Lionel has said if you ask 20 Flyer collectors what they want they will come up with 25 different items.  All I can say to that is at least do 1 of the 25.  A majority of people will be happy with anything new.  

Maybe $1799 is a test to see what we would pay for newly tooled items.

—Rocco—

Last edited by Rocco
@Rocco posted:

I really like this AF catalog.  I would buy more except for major price points.  It shows some creativity.  If Lionel wants to know what I would like to see if they have any money for new tooling, I would ask them to spend it on one of the following in random order:

1) Modern Rolling Stock

Like the 57' mechanical reefer cancelled EIGHT years ago on the date they were scheduled for delivery:

Flyer Reefer 2014

2) New Fast Track (RR crossing or Re-railer/crossing)

Lionel cataloged and cancelled in 2013 a FasTrack operating grade crossing, which I think would have been a knockout.

3) Any new engine we have been asking for.  Either Steam or Diesel.

SD40-2....w/scale wheel conversion...

I know Lionel has said if you ask 20 Flyer collectors what they want they will come up with 25 different items.  All I can say to that is at least do 1 of the 25.  A majority of people will be happy with anything new.  

Maybe $1799 is a test to see what we would pay for newly tooled items.

Except the Y3 isn't new tooling.

Rusty

—Rocco—

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@Bob Bubeck posted:

Ah, Jerry, many of us really like the "sparky stuff".

Bob

Yeah, I believe a number of us have the control system, I do and love using it. I agree on the price point, $1800.  is a little stiff for me. Fortunately for me there is a Y3 living here. I am in the market for a Pacific, that would be for a repaint to head up my Pioneer Limited.

I am one also who does not need any more trains but, maybe room for one l want.

Ray

I ordered a pair 2-8-8-2s, but Lionel could have sold me SO much more over the past two catalogs...

Since everyone else has left their personal reason for why they aren't buying, I'll leave my thoughts for Lionel as someone who wants to buy more Lionel S products and has purchased 2 Berks and has 4 more Legacy steam engines on order (6+ when they release offer Mikados)

I would like to see more scale proportioned highly detailed Hi-Rail offerings for engines, passenger cars (add-on details, scale coupler pads, detailed interiors with figures, sound), rolling stock, cabooses (new tooling with cameras would be awesome), etc... If I had my choice, I'd prefer SCALE over Hi-Rail, but since Lionel has decided that they'd rather stick with Hi-Rail I can live with that compromise.  If Lionel stays the course, then most of my future train budget will likely go to Scale Trains for my S purchases.

In the meantime, I'm thankful for N scale- new scale products released every month, including many designed and made here in the USA.

In 1998 Charlotte Montgomery, group product manager at Lionel at the time, informed the S Gaugian that Lionel had "brand new tooling" for an SD40-2 to be inroduced later in the year. That would make sense--the second most popular EMD locomotive with almost 4,000 sold. It never appeared. I agree with Rusty that the SD40-2 would be a popular choice that Lionel could continue producing in a wide variety of paint liveries for a long time. Offering scale wheels as an option could only guarantee its success.

The mechanical reefer was probably withdrawn for lack of pre-orders. That hesitancy on the part of buyers may have been caused by the initial offering of the cylindrical hoppers guaranteed to appeal to no one: 1) scale wheels that would not work for high-railers who represent the majority of S scale modelers, and 2) huge AF couplers, "flood pants" height off the rails, and fantasy paint schemes mocked by true scalers--who couldn't use the hoppers either because the wheels were out of gauge. To Lionel's credit they made a number of changes to this model to make it much more appealing. But we lost the mechanical reefer.

The flaws so apparent in the first cylindrical hopper would suggest that rather than asking 20 Flyonel collectors, Lionel asked no one for that release. There have been some real hits in the past few years, however. The Mikado, Pacific, Challenger, U33C (with road-specific details on several models in the first release), SD70ACe, ES44AC, Y3, and the Berkshire were all nicely detailed and good runners. The latter versions even accommodated DCC.  If Lionel were to standardize diesel wheelsets, provide scale wheelset options for easy swapping out of high-rail sets, and standardize included scale coupler pads, they would cover most of the S community at little risk, little cost. Maybe 14 out of 20 S modelers would agree on that.

Terry O'KellySD40-2

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  • SD40-2: S Gaugian 1998
Last edited by TOKELLY
@TOKELLY posted:

In 1998 Charlotte Montgomery, group product manager at Lionel at the time, informed the S Gaugian that Lionel had "brand new tooling" for an SD40-2 to be inroduced later in the year. That would make sense--the second most popular EMD locomotive with almost 4,000 sold. It never appeared. I agree with Rusty that the SD40-2 would be a popular choice that Lionel could continue producing in a wide variety of paint liveries for a long time. Offering scale wheels as an option could only guarantee its success.

The mechanical reefer was probably withdrawn for lack of pre-orders. That hesitancy on the part of buyers may have been caused by the initial offering of the cylindrical hoppers guaranteed to appeal to no one: 1) scale wheels that would not work for high-railers who represent the majority of S scale modelers, and 2) huge AF couplers, "flood pants" height off the rails, and fantasy paint schemes mocked by true scalers--who couldn't use the hoppers either because the wheels were out of gauge. To Lionel's credit they made a number of changes to this model to make it much more appealing. But we lost the mechanical reefer.

The flaws so apparent in the first cylindrical hopper would suggest that rather than asking 20 Flyonel collectors, Lionel asked no one for that release. There have been some real hits in the past few years, however. The Mikado, Pacific, Challenger, U33C (with road-specific details on several models in the first release), SD70ACe, ES44AC, Y3, and the Berkshire were all nicely detailed and good runners. The latter versions even accommodated DCC.  If Lionel were to standardize diesel wheelsets, provide scale wheelset options for easy swapping out of high-rail sets, and standardize included scale coupler pads, they would cover most of the S community at little risk, little cost. Maybe 14 out of 20 S modelers would agree on that.

Terry O'KellySD40-2

I feel the SD40-2 tooling comment was smoke and mirrors coming from Lionel.  They may have had research, but no steel was cut.(IMO)  Seriously, the locomotive was cancelled shortly after the brochures came out.

The "model" photographed was nothing more than a photoshopped Athearn HO model complete with the crimp on handrails that Athearn used at the time.   Even the mounting for the Athearn snap-on coupler box is visible above the photoshopped coupler..

The boogy-boogy thing about the mechanical reefer was it was cancelled on the day they were anticipated to be delivered.  My LHS showed me the letter.  Why not announce the cancellation shortly after the pre-order window was closed?

99.9% of the scalers that bought the cylindrical hoppers figured out how to put scale truck on them, even me.  It took me about 10 minutes once I saw what was involved to put scale trucks under the car.

LNL CH 031614 scale-hr 1

Yet Lionel treated it like rocket science.  Rather than making the bolster the proper height, they tooled up for a pad to lower a Kadee coupler.

Simply put with regards to Flyer and scale, there's the right way, the wrong way and the Lionel way.

Rusty

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  • LNL CH 031614 scale-hr 1

I know I am in the minority with still preferring conventional control and not caring much about all the fancy new electronics (I mostly collect link coupler) but I will buy new items when they interest me, for example I picked up the Alton Limited they did some years back. Looking at the offerings from the past few years, nothing has grabbed my attention at all. I know S takes a back seat for Lionel but it seems everyone is wanting new motive power and Lionel isn't listening.

I understand no one can agree on any particular model (show me a hobby with any real consensus) but they have to realize you can't just keep rehashing the same thing over and over and charging more for it.

Why not tool up a new Hudson? You can say they are over done but they always sell. It is a safe way to truly test the waters. After that start tooling up some Northerns. Some of the engineering and tooling could be shared across doing 611, 4449 and 844. Those always sell well also.

Finally even though I prefer steam, I really don't understand the lack of diesels. Diesels are the more cost effective option to put out. Why aren't they offering more of those?

I was comparing the new Y3 vs. the older Y3.........The tender on the remake is not the tender that was used on the original Y3.........it has 4 wheel's trucks instead of the 6 wheel's on the original   check out the rivet pattern............not correct for N&W anyway.........I already have a 2020 Y3...........why would I want one that is not correct?    I paid 500.00 for my 2020 from Lionel.  2000.00 for a model that has a incorrect tender..... wrong trucks'........ and........ no doghouse......that is a lot for smoke to push out of the whistle (maybe or maybe not).....

I bet someone is working on whistle smoke right now......just a matter of time and he will show all of us how to mod. our Y3's if we want.   

Regards

Jackie

PS

Just rechecked catalog from Lionel..........the Santa Fe....Pennsy.......Union Pacific .... have correct tender showing....... 6 wheel truck ........ WHY.....................................

Last edited by William Jack

If Lionel produces new Legacy engines I will buy them. A Legacy Hudson would be great, A Northern is probably OK but I already have three TMCC Northerns. New Diesels are also great. Fortunately I am not a rivet counter but I do want the new PRR Y3 to have a tender doghouse like the prior run did. I hope Lionel gets the green correct. My current PRR Y3 has the correct green, to tell it is green it needs to be beside a black engine, Then people say "oh, it really is a very dark green!" Its the same paint Lionel used on the 2005 PRR light Mikado's.

My view on the price is that we S gaugers were living on borrowed time with pricing so much less than the O gauge line.

I was comparing the new Y3 vs. the older Y3.........The tender on the remake is not the tender that was used on the original Y3.........it has 4 wheel's trucks instead of the 6 wheel's on the original   check out the rivet pattern............not correct for N&W anyway.........I already have a 2020 Y3...........why would I want one that is not correct?    I paid 500.00 for my 2020 from Lionel.  2000.00 for a model that has a incorrect tender..... wrong trucks'........ and........ no doghouse......that is a lot for smoke to push out of the whistle (maybe or maybe not).....

I bet someone is working on whistle smoke right now......just a matter of time and he will show all of us how to mod. our Y3's if we want.   

Regards

Jackie

PS

Just rechecked catalog from Lionel..........the Santa Fe....Pennsy.......Union Pacific .... have correct tender showing....... 6 wheel truck ........ WHY.....................................

The tender Lionel's using on the 2020 V1 N&W Y3 and the other 5 is their Pacific/Mikado tender.

Lionel's doing it to add "variety" at minimum cost most likely.

I doubt anyone is working on aftermarket whistle steam for previous locomotives because the TMCC or Legacy electronics and software also has to be changed to operate it.

Rusty

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  • mceclip0

I was comparing the new Y3 vs. the older Y3.........The tender on the remake is not the tender that was used on the original Y3.........it has 4 wheel's trucks instead of the 6 wheel's on the original   check out the rivet pattern............not correct for N&W anyway.........I already have a 2020 Y3...........why would I want one that is not correct?    I paid 500.00 for my 2020 from Lionel.  2000.00 for a model that has a incorrect tender..... wrong trucks'........ and........ no doghouse......that is a lot for smoke to push out of the whistle (maybe or maybe not).....

I bet someone is working on whistle smoke right now......just a matter of time and he will show all of us how to mod. our Y3's if we want.   

Regards

Jackie

PS

Just rechecked catalog from Lionel..........the Santa Fe....Pennsy.......Union Pacific .... have correct tender showing....... 6 wheel truck ........ WHY.....................................

Yes, I agree. I want to pay for something that is correct. I want the doghouse.  Please!

Well, it sez here:

Take "Road Specific Details" for what it's worth.

I seriously doubt the Pennsy bothered to repaint their Y3's DLGE.

Rusty

Lionel's  original run for the Y's had two difference that I know,,,,,,,You had a step pilot(N&W) and a road pilot (UP)...... the UP Y3's had number boards on top of boiler like all UP steam engines............I purchased a road pilot and put it on one of my N&W Y3's .....this gave me  two Y3's .....yet each one has a small  difference.

Jackie

Last edited by William Jack

I went into the train room and took pictures of the Y3 with the 6 axle tender with dog house, and also with the 4 axle tender from the 2005 PRR light Mikado. I think both look good.

Note in the Lionel page Rusty posted above the length is given as 21.5”. That is the exact length over the couplers of the Y3 with the six axle tender. The same length with the 4 axle tender is 20”. Impossible to tell what the delivered engine will be with the contradictory information.



B0FB7C82-92C9-4463-AFD9-CB3E6731FF2C89208307-D8F1-4167-9A34-4D69A0457ACB491DC94C-FD0D-4359-8D92-92C1918E56AC

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  • B0FB7C82-92C9-4463-AFD9-CB3E6731FF2C
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  • 491DC94C-FD0D-4359-8D92-92C1918E56AC
@AmFlyer posted:

I went into the train room and took pictures of the Y3 with the 6 axle tender with dog house, and also with the 4 axle tender from the 2005 PRR light Mikado. I think both look good.

Note in the Lionel page Rusty posted above the length is given as 21.5”. That is the exact length over the couplers of the Y3 with the six axle tender. The same length with the 4 axle tender is 20”. Impossible to tell what the delivered engine will be with the contradictory information.



B0FB7C82-92C9-4463-AFD9-CB3E6731FF2C89208307-D8F1-4167-9A34-4D69A0457ACB491DC94C-FD0D-4359-8D92-92C1918E56AC

Boy, Love your layout.......really nice turntable.....as far as tenders go.....well...... I'll take the doghouse any day........ everybody knows that the Y's used a lot of coal and water,,,,,,

Jackie

The turntable bridge is 22" so that gives a perspective on the engine length. I did not move the engine so the extra space on the bridge in picture two is from the shorter tender length, 1.5". I was not aware that the Pacific/Mikado tenders were longer than scale.

The PRR engine is green. Compare it to the pure black of the UP Challenger behind it in the pictures.

Thanks Jackie, a turntable and roundhouse were must haves on my layout. They take up a lot of space, including the three approach tracks it is about 8'x 3'.

Just a bit of a "what if" exercise here, but isn't the doghouse a good candidate for either 3D printing or resin copies?  Even scratch building could work.  All you'd need is either a diagram or a sample to model.  C'mon some of you out there!  If I had ever a remote interest in those steamers (and I had the "green" to own one) I'd to it. 

@AmFlyer posted:

Here is a better picture of the Y3 taken with a Nikon at f22 (5 second exposure) with some added lighting. The others I just took with my iPad handheld.

Also included are two pictures of a 2006 TMCC Pacific for those like me who are waiting for the Legacy Pacifics. Both of these engines are nicely detailed.



BC866276-B579-4AB5-B4A1-1F5B9D38C7C9E2D2AF8D-CE63-457B-9EFF-C94840259053162DF022-A9A6-4665-B936-24F1857135E2

Beautiful! Maybe beyond so. Thank you sharing these! 😎

Rusty,



I think my point was missed.



Maybe $1799 is a test to see what we would pay for newly tooled items.

Except the Y3 isn't new tooling.

My point was new tooling will come at a higher cost.  If sales of a Y3 at $1799 will sell then Lionel knowing a new  

upper dollar limit we are willing to pay, may be willing to create new tooling such as an SD40, southern Pacific daylight GS4, aHudson etc.



—Rocco—

@Rocco posted:

Rusty,



I think my point was missed.



Maybe $1799 is a test to see what we would pay for newly tooled items.

Except the Y3 isn't new tooling.

My point was new tooling will come at a higher cost.  If sales of a Y3 at $1799 will sell then Lionel knowing a new  

upper dollar limit we are willing to pay, may be willing to create new tooling such as an SD40, southern Pacific daylight GS4, aHudson etc.



—Rocco—

As much as I'd like to see an SD40-2, newly tooled Hudson, GS4 or J, I'd pass at 1800 bucks.

Lionel's certainly going to find out if there's an upper dollar limit for existing tooling with the Y3.

Rusty

Last edited by Rusty Traque

I believe Lionel priced the Y3 to provide their targeted ROI on an updated Legacy engine investment. The fact that it will provide information about the purchase volume at that price is true but I doubt that drove Lionel's pricing decision. The street price is $1,500 and I have one on order. The price is still 15% under an O gauge model. Buying S gauge Legacy engines at 1/2 of the O gauge price was great while it lasted, seems that will no longer be possible.

Were I responsible for approving S gauge engines I would require a higher ROI for S than for O because the likelihood of exceeding the build minimum by a larger than planned amount is lower. The total market is smaller but the investment and production costs are almost the same. This results in a lower probability of converting above plan gross margin into bottom line profit.

@AmFlyer posted:

I believe Lionel priced the Y3 to provide their targeted ROI on an updated Legacy engine investment.

The Y3 in 2012 was a completely new engine from the ground up would have incurred R&D and tooling costs. I would have thought that Lionel would have calculated these costs into the production run back then. It wouldn’t make sense to a bean counter to have outstanding costs hanging over for ten years and there is no guarantee that this run will take place.

So if all these costs have been paid for back in 2012 then the only additional costs now are for new electronics and special effects. I can’t believe that they would cost more than the original R&D plus tooling.

It just seems that Lionel are looking to extensively maximise profit on an engine that must cost less to manufacture than the original ten years ago. I could be wrong and missing something but I can’t see what it is.

Also, Lionel have basically very little competition in the S area, the SHS line basically ended when MTH acquired it and the new owners are not going to do much for another year or two and even then possibly re runs and limited selection.  AM has a following but my perception is that it never seemed to have broken out with a larger customer base, I can put my hand up and be guilty of this as I have a small number of engines and rolling stock. Nothing wrong with the products but it misses something that I can’t quite put my finger on.

So if Lionel feel they are top dog in S then of course they will/can charge what they want knowing they are safe for the time being until something changes.

Just my views and perceptions.

@Ukaflyer posted:

The Y3 in 2012 was a completely new engine from the ground up would have incurred R&D and tooling costs. I would have thought that Lionel would have calculated these costs into the production run back then. It wouldn’t make sense to a bean counter to have outstanding costs hanging over for ten years and there is no guarantee that this run will take place.

So if all these costs have been paid for back in 2012 then the only additional costs now are for new electronics and special effects. I can’t believe that they would cost more than the original R&D plus tooling.

I figured a rerun of the Y3 would have MSRP'd at $1500.00.  On the odd chance that would have been true, that means adding smoke is the extra $300.00.  The short tenders could be added to the Pacific's production run to minimize that cost.

It just seems that Lionel are looking to extensively maximise profit on an engine that must cost less to manufacture than the original ten years ago. I could be wrong and missing something but I can’t see what it is.

I'm not sure the Y3 could be made for less than 10 years ago.  Costs have gone up across the board, particularly in the last year or so.

Also, Lionel have basically very little competition in the S area, the SHS line basically ended when MTH acquired it and the new owners are not going to do much for another year or two and even then possibly re runs and limited selection.  

Agree here.  MTH unfortunately never had the knowledge or desire to successfully court the S modeler.  Scale Train is at least a year away from releasing anything (they have yet to announce anything from MTH HO, which is what they really wanted,) so ST's in a holding pattern.

AM has a following but my perception is that it never seemed to have broken out with a larger customer base, I can put my hand up and be guilty of this as I have a small number of engines and rolling stock. Nothing wrong with the products but it misses something that I can’t quite put my finger on.

That's been my perception as well.  Ron must have been doing something right to have to move into a larger facility a couple of years ago,  With Ron's passing, I feel AM will continue with existing products, but I doubt there will be anything requiring new tooling.

I think AM benefited the most from SHS in the "old days," who was a little more aggressive in marketing S.  The late 90's /early 2000's saw the greatest expansion of the AM product line.

So if Lionel feel they are top dog in S then of course they will/can charge what they want knowing they are safe for the time being until something changes.

And they don't have to bother to develop newer, scale rolling stock like the cylindrical hoppers.

Just my views and perceptions.

Rusty

As much as I'd like to see an SD40-2, newly tooled Hudson, GS4 or J, I'd pass at 1800 bucks.

Lionel's certainly going to find out if there's an upper dollar limit for existing tooling with the Y3.

Rusty

I suspect that a newly tooled SD40 might price in at roughly $700. Still, not cheap. Steam engine models are another matter. To restate the obvious, many of us do believe that an SD-40 (or -2) would be a good seller with many possible prototypical road names.

Bob

Make that $1800 ($1799.99) Bob.  I figured a new Y3 would have weighed in at around $1500, so we're close there.  I guess the modifications for whistle steam and fitting for the Pacific tenders on some models are the extra $300.   I also wonder how far "road specific detailing" will go.  The illustrations are generic photoshops.

In spite of all that the Y3 remains the best Flyer locomotive Lionel has put out IMHO.  The Berk is a close second.

I'm reasonably happy with my 2012 (eccentric crank issue notwithstanding) era Y3 and as I don't do smoke, whistle steam doesn't add any value for me.

Rusty: Bob is so correct. Lionel uses Gilbert Alco shells and manufactures the products in China. Their prices are through the roof and reek of a huge profit for the Lionel Investment Company. No this is not the company of Richard Kughn.

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