22 year old NIB steam locomotives?

Manny,

I've bought like-new and new-in-box Lionel steam locomotives (fifteen+ years old - a 2-6-0 Mogul and 0-8-0 switcher with TMCC) from forum sponsor Trainz and they've worked properly and run well.

MELGAR

Well, if we are talking the dockside switcher- yes it does kind of matter IMO based on the fact a local friend who refurbishes and sells a lot of them has taught me over time. I might mention, I also end up repairing a fair whack of the reverse unit boards in this- if/when the motor burns up, draws high current, and thus the reverse unit transistors go into thermal runaway and failure.

The early ones used a type 1 motor, and that is no longer available.  The diecast frame and mounting hole were changed for a type 2 motor series that at best requires modification of the older chassis to fit.

One example https://www.lionelsupport.com/...w-Whistle-71-6-38622

I want to be clear, I'm not saying these are bad engines. What I am saying is, we are talking about an early version, with a type one motor, never run and the grease and lube might not be ideal, and then knowing limitations of the drive line and lack of any heatsink on the transistors, along with propensity to thermal runaway- and then it's not just bolt in parts situation for what is still available.

Again, I know someone who sells these all gone through, refurbished and done right. I'm not even trying to promote them,

I'm just saying, if you are asking and have a choice, I would know what I'm buying, the exact condition, do I have the skills to inspect, relube, possibly take apart to maintain this engine? I personally also consider long term parts availability as a plus or minus in my buying decision.

Again, I'm not saying never buy an early version. I'm not saying it's going to fail next week or even next month.

But I would factor in the "big picture" of a purchase, you want to run this engine and use it operationally. You might want to limit the scope of how many cars you pull, how hard you make this work, how much maintenance and cleaning lubing are you up for? Last- all those always balance against your purchase price.

There are different aspects of this hobby and different members participate or focus differently. Again, some people are runners- operators. Some folks are light users with very occasional lightly loaded use. Some people are collectors. Then you get into skillsets. Some folks will tear down an engine right out the box. Some people are scared to remove 4 screws to take off the shell. Some people can't solder if their life depended on it. Some people do component level repairs and reverse engineering of circuit boards. These all combine into- are you a repair type person and do your own maintenance and repairs, or are you the type who has to pay someone? And, then, do you have someone familiar with this engine and it's quirks, parts availability and so forth?

Manny is worried about a NIB 22 year old loco.  Most of my postwar locos are 70-75 years old and are used or well used, but most run just fine and are repairable.  Age is often an issue on later trains that are 5-20 years old as they have more plastic including gears, un-repairable electronics and were not built as well.

I can say the same about my vintage 1970s stereo receivers:  They all work and are repairable with discrete transistors, no un-repairable or available chips.

Go for it.

Charlie

Thanks Vernon for that most excellent and thorough reply.

I am a "light runner/operational" guy, who does not want to have to fix anything, unless it is a small mechanical issue that is easily recognizable and easy to access.  I have zero skills in electronic replacements and repairs and don't want to go there.

I had heard about the fragile nature of the Docksiders, and that is why I asked the question.

I will definitely stay away from an old NIB one.

I don't know if anybody is still making new ones in Conventional anymore, but if not, I will look for something else.

I know this is heresy, but I really only run my trains about 4 hours per MONTH at most.  And, I never pull trains that are more than 8 cars.  I probably never run any particular loco more than 30 minutes at a time.

P.S.- Best small engine I have ever bought: a NIB Williams/Bachman 44-ton diesel to scale, on sale for $145.00, dual can motors, strong runner with absolutely zero problems.  I guess the small steamers, having only one motor, are more fragile.

Thanks again,

Mannyrock

My personal experience with the Alaska engine Vernon referred to is good. I’ve owned it since new in 2007 and have had zero problems.

i do run it with light loads which seems prototypical to me. I run around 10 volts which gets the smoke working. I maintain everything I own and keep records.

So I’m fitting what Vernon recommends. If you maintain your engines I see no reason not to buy this. It’s a great runner and something different.

I have bought a few NIB locos, both diesel and steam that are 20-30 years old.

None of them work to my satisfaction until I clean and relubed them with fresh oils and grease.  Some of the grease used in that era turned to a hardened mess worse than earwax.  It must be removed completely.  I had one Lionel diesel in particular that wouldn't even run.  The problem was the hardened grease in the worm gearbox.  But now its a great puller.

@Choo Choo Charlie posted:

Manny is worried about a NIB 22 year old loco.  Most of my postwar locos are 70-75 years old and are used or well used, but most run just fine and are repairable.  Age is often an issue on later trains that are 5-20 years old as they have more plastic including gears, un-repairable electronics and were not built as well.

Charlie

Some truth in that, for sure - but, at the end of the day, you're stuck with Postwar esthetics, size, decoration, noise, "realism", "detail" and 50 smph "low" speed. I don't want that. The "built as well"? - certainly the PW stuff will take a child's abuse better than most current product, but do I really care about that? No kids around here.

If we could combine PW simplicity with Modern performance, size and appearance....well, that's a nice fairy tale. 

This was a sealed new in the box Williams scale Hudson. I doubt the grease just dried up. I wonder how long that puppy would've held up without a service.  That's why when it's new to me, it gets torn down and inspected mechanical and electrical components. My point is, no matter what you're purchase is, it's best practice to inspect it, or find a good friend that can for you! Good luck in whatever you decide.

Which is why I often go the route of buying a used VG or VG+ condition locomotive from someone on this Board.  I have high confidence that it has been reasonably well maintained, with no dried up grease or other issues.   :-)

Mannyrock

@TrainCzar posted:

I have bought a few NIB locos, both diesel and steam that are 20-30 years old.

Some of the grease used in that era turned to a hardened mess worse than earwax.  It must be removed completely.  I had one Lionel diesel that wouldn't even run.  The problem was the hardened grease in the worm gearbox. 

I'm going to have to clean the "earwax" out of a NIB, 28-year-old Flyer diesel I bought this year.  Exactly what solvents/brushes/disassembly do you use to you get out the goop?  Any tips on your process would be appreciated.

I unboxed a 36 year old NIB Lionel Hudson last year.  Added some oil to all the points the manual stated and grease where the manual stated and it ran like a champ.

Just fired up my unrun, 18005 Hudson. It was display only after it came out of the box 2 years ago .  Finally have a track with the curves to run it. Did a thorough check, greasing and smoke element mods.   Engine runs well, it is conventional with a mechanical e-unit.  first generation railsounds in the tender is toast.  Oh it made sound, full volume no matter the adjustment, random bell on off, random horn and full horn all the time engine was in nuetral.  Age just kills the first gen railsounds.    Had to twist tie the tender coupler so it wouldn't open.  The long coupler and release arm is just too long to hold.  It is pulling the   reproduction freight cars for the 700e set.  It is quite a load to pull.  The weight of the 6 cars probably equals about 18 other cars or more.  But it is fun to watch it run.  Now to find a working soundcard from Dallee etc.    New, unrun doesn't mean trouble free.

@RadioRon posted:

I'm going to have to clean the "earwax" out of a NIB, 28-year-old Flyer diesel I bought this year.  Exactly what solvents/brushes/disassembly do you use to you get out the goop?  Any tips on your process would be appreciated.

My favorite solvent is naphtha.  I use it to clean track and most all parts.  However when I don’t want to fully disassemble parts I use contact cleaner in an aerosol can.  Can’t get naphtha that way.  I also have heard that WD40 also works good as a solvent.
I just disassemble so I can get to the gears.
Spray or brush solvent and let sit for awhile. Use safety glasses as it spits back a lot depending on location.
I use toothbrush and toothpicks and get all around the gears by moving them.  I never disassemble the NIB motors but I do oil the ends of the shaft.
I keep spraying and brushing and then blast with air till they are clean.  
I’ve been using red and tacky grease but used white lithium in the past.  
I feel like a dentist working in confined areas takes awhile but worth it.

@Mannyrock posted:

Hey Guys,

   I am looking at a few Dockside Switchers, advertised as NIB.  Some of these last appeared in the 2002 catalogue.

What are the engine numbers on these 2002 engines? I looked through a list of items from the 2002 catalog and saw no docksiders, unless I missed something.

@TrainCzar posted:

My favorite solvent is naphtha.  I use it to clean track and most all parts.  However when I don’t want to fully disassemble parts I use contact cleaner in an aerosol can.   I also have heard that WD40 also works good as a solvent.
I just disassemble so I can get to the gears.
Spray or brush solvent and let sit for awhile. Use safety glasses as it spits back a lot depending on location.
I use toothbrush and toothpicks and get all around the gears by moving them.  I never disassemble the NIB motors but I do oil the ends of the shaft.
I keep spraying and brushing and then blast with air till they are clean.   I’ve been using red and tacky grease but used white lithium in the past.  

Thank you!   

There are a few things to consider. Dried up lubricants, zinc pest, bad electronics. Just because it is NOS doesn't equate to factory fresh and like new. Where they are stored has a lot to do with it also. The packaging can also cause issues. I have dealt with all of these issues with older locomotives. Steam and diesel, same issues will effect all. I check for parts availability before buying older stuff just in case.

Are we talking MTH dockside ( 0-4-0T) or Lionel (0-6-0T) ? You said last appeared in 2002 so it sounds like MTH. Lionel has had theirs available up to current.

Chuck,

Thanks very much for that info.

Being an "O Gauge Idiot", I didn't really focus on who the manufacturer was when I was looking at "Dockside" switchers on E-Bay.

It probably was an MTH.

So, which one would be better/ more reliable?   A gently used MTH Dockside loco, or a new conventional Lionel 0-6-0?

Thanks,

Mannyrock

MTH dockside 0-4-0 are a good quality engine. Almost too much smoke. (fan driven) The only drawback to these are the serrated drive wheel for 'better' traction which is noisy.  No whistle sound on these. And no part available to change the drive wheel. The Lionel one is good also, with a 'whistle' sound and has a puffer type smoke unit which is not a perfect system ( sometimes a piston problem) Also there is no replacement reverse unit boards for the earlier non Lionchief control. You could squeeze an aftermarket reverse board in if needed. So both have their pros and cons.

Thanks Chuck,

I double checked my last Bay search, and I was indeed looking at a Lionel docksider 0-6-0, with the yellow painted Reading name.

Perhaps this particular model was list listed in the 2002 catalogue, as the seller stated, or perhaps he was just mistaken,

I really like the color of that yellow paint!

Mannyrock

Yes, the Reading was one of the very first issued. Have the seller check for running and reversing. If the price is right, go for it.

@Chuck Sartor posted:

MTH dockside 0-4-0 are a good quality engine. Almost too much smoke. (fan driven) The only drawback to these are the serrated drive wheel for 'better' traction which is noisy.

A couple of people have whacked off the serrated bumps on the wheels to quiet these down.  I was thinking of trying that, sounds fairly easy.

@Mannyrock posted:

I double checked my last Bay search, and I was indeed looking at a Lionel docksider 0-6-0, with the yellow painted Reading name.

Perhaps this particular model was list listed in the 2002 catalogue, as the seller stated, or perhaps he was just mistaken,

Mannyrock

To clarify what engine is being discussed here (shown below), it wasn't in the 2002 Lionel catalog. It's the Reading 0-6-0 no. 28613, cataloged in 2004, Volume 2. Probably was available very late 2004/early 2005. This was from the first run of these new Docksiders, which were all conventional. (As an aside, I recall there was a lot of discussion after these engines came out from some folks about the feasibility of putting ERR cruise in it.)

I have the Santa Fe version of this engine (cataloged at the same time as the Reading version). Runs like a top. Ran it a lot over the holidays.

I picked up a mint/unrun 18005 Lionel 1-700e Hudson for a great price from Trainz.  It wouldnt even move when I got it.  Had to fully service the gear box and motor, between oil varnish and hardened greese it was "stuck"   My RS1 did work well, but I cannot stand that early sound.  But I had a drop in RS2.5 kit from ebay that replaced the early sounds with correct Lionel NYC Hudson sounds from one of the better generations of pre TMCC sound set ups.  I swapped the old boards for a NYC Pacemaker box car.  I pull it and my postwar 2500 series cars on my small 4x7 loop with 042 curves.  Most any engine I get that has been sitting or not recently serviced gets a trip to my backshop before getting put to work again.  From prewar to LTI, they all see the shop before layout duty.   AD

When buying NOS trains of any scale that are 20+ years old, you should just assume the product will need a full service before operating. Grease often gets hard, oil runs off bearing surfaces, and many modern era trains, usually other scales than O, often have plastic gears. Dried grease can mean an early death for NOS model trains. It usually destroys plastic gears, for instance LGB locomotives. It is common knowledge that the LGB moguls will self destruct if you don’t clean the old grease out.
If the grease doesn’t destroy the gears, the locomotive won’t run well and will cause excessive current draw which can overheat electronics and wipe out control boards or a motor.

This doesn’t mean that buying NOS trains is a bad idea but expectations need to be managed. It also isn’t an indictment of any of the models or manufacturers. Most mechanical devices are not happy if you leave them to sit for 20-30 years. Would you expect your car to start right up after sitting for 25 years?