Funny, I was thinking of asking the very same questions....

There really is no comparison.  With the Lionel E8's for the $930 MSRP, you'll get just one powered unit and one dummy unit, whereas 3rd Rail gives you two beautifully-detailed, powered units for roughly $650-ish each.  The Lionel models may have incrementally better sounds (due to Legacy Railsounds which is always top-notch).  But aside from that benefit, I much prefer the performance we're gonna see from 3rd Rail's models.

David 

I like the fact that 3rd rail versions come with fixed pilots

Budkole posted:

I like the fact that 3rd rail versions come with fixed pilots

Plus, you can also order a scale pilot when you up-grade to Kadee couplers, thus filling that huge hole where the lobster claw sticks out.

I would do the 3RD Rail E8 over Lionel Legacy too, it’s just a little bit better.  Generally speaking for me the ranking goes as follows: Lionel Vision Line, 3RD Rail, Lionel Legacy and then MTH Premier.  If what I’m looking for is only available in Railking or TrainMan I just don’t make a purchase, for me detail is that important.  

The 3RD Rail E8 and Lionel Legacy F40PH were both recently purchased, to be honest both are really nice.

I passed on the Lionel E units because of the lack of two powered units. I need two to pull my 12 car CZ train. I passed on the 3rd Rail units at first because they just weren't on my radar. I saw the production sample at the Chicago March meet and started searching for a set. I have not been happier with my purchase. I would buy them again in a heartbeat over the Lionel models. The detail is superb and the drive is smooth as silk

I was fortunate enough to get a set of 3rd Rail e7's and I will say, they run as smooth as silk.  

Now I'm wondering if the lionel can pull 12 aluminum pass cars

I have the PRR Lionel E8s on preorder and can't wait. Even with only one powered unit I do not expect to have any pulling power issues. The Lionel E8s have been out for a while and I have not heard anyone say they had a actual issue with pulling power. I also think the Legacy control and sounds are top notch.

i do not have anything against 3rd Rail's E8s and do agree that when pulling 12 or so passenger cars it would be nice to have 2 powered units but as David says it will cost you $1300 vs say $800 for the Lionel E8s. Wow that is $500 bucks which is another Legacy engine says a GP9 or SD70Ace as You can get at least a 20% discount on Lionel if you try. I already have a set of 7 18 inch Lionel Alluminum passenger cars plus one express boxcar to pull. I don't expect to be adding any additional cars.

JohnB

I'm going to sneak in and give love to my MTH Premier Santa Fe E8, and I do think all 3 manufacturers did a great job. I have the E8 Set from 2016, matching B unit and the other powered A and the matching dome. I think total it cost me around $1290 for an ABA and 5 cars - all stainless plated.

BNSF-Matt posted:

I'm going to sneak in and give love to my MTH Premier Santa Fe E8, and I do think all 3 manufacturers did a great job. I have the E8 Set from 2016, matching B unit and the other powered A and the matching dome. I think total it cost me around $1290 for an ABA and 5 cars - all stainless plated.

Right, I forgot about MTH.  I have always felt that MTH made a better looking, more detailed diesels than lionel in 2 rail form.  The fact that MTH can run in 2 or 3 rail and has fixed pilots is definitely a plus.

For the bottom feeders like me there are the K-Line E8s. I have 450 bucks in these including the cruise upgrade and fixed pilots. Equiped with the Binford high torque drive system (ugh, ugh, ugh)  its fully capable of pulling prototypical 17 car consists.

Pete

Trains44 posted:

I would do the 3RD Rail E8 over Lionel Legacy too, it’s just a little bit better.  Generally speaking for me the ranking goes as follows: Lionel Vision Line, 3RD Rail, Lionel Legacy and then MTH Premier.  If what I’m looking for is only available in Railking or TrainMan I just don’t make a purchase, for me detail is that important.  

The 3RD Rail E8 and Lionel Legacy F40PH were both recently purchased, to be honest both are really nice.

Those Amtrak E units look nice.  Looks as if they were models of units they bought from UP, considering the roof details.

Norton posted:

For the bottom feeders like me there are the K-Line E8s. I have 450 bucks in these including the cruise upgrade and fixed pilots. Equiped with the Binford high torque drive system (ugh, ugh, ugh)  its fully capable of pulling prototypical 17 car consists.

Pete

Those are nice!   Did you put spacers in for pilot or did you just fix them to the frame as is?

I am very happy with my Lionel Legacy E8's.

BNSF-Matt,  Can you post a few more pics from different angles to show off the beautiful stainless effect of your units?   Didn't realize that MTH had produced those like that. I remember some years ago they made a set ofSanta Fe F3s that were 'chromed' but appeared overdone...

Pull the 'claw' and fix that pilot and you'll have a sweet model!

My Lionel E8s are superb. Not sure if the GGD E8s have flanged wheels. If they do, I would not buy any, as GGD diesel engines with those wheels have caused operating issues for me. 

irish rifle posted:

My Lionel E8s are superb. Not sure if the GGD E8s have flanged wheels. If they do, I would not buy any, as GGD diesel engines with those wheels have caused operating issues for me. 

???????

Lionel engines have flanged wheels. Do you mean the center axles?

BNSF--Matt,

The SF E8's are really nice. The only thing I would change is the Front coupler on the lead A unit. 

I would take it either way. 

Budkole posted:

Norton posted:

For the bottom feeders like me there are the K-Line E8s. I have 450 bucks in these including the cruise upgrade and fixed pilots. Equiped with the Binford high torque drive system (ugh, ugh, ugh)  its fully capable of pulling prototypical 17 car consists.

Pete

Those are nice!   Did you put spacers in for pilot or did you just fix them to the frame as is?

Thanks Frank. The pilot is plastic and is glued to the body after removing the buffer plate from the pilot. These are from P&D and fit the curvature perfectly. 

Pete

c.sam posted:

BNSF-Matt,  Can you post a few more pics from different angles to show off the beautiful stainless effect of your units?   Didn't realize that MTH had produced those like that. I remember some years ago they made a set ofSanta Fe F3s that were 'chromed' but appeared overdone...

Pull the 'claw' and fix that pilot and you'll have a sweet model!

Sure Sam, give me a bit and I will get some additional pics and perhaps a short video as well.

david1 posted:

BNSF--Matt,

The SF E8's are really nice. The only thing I would change is the Front coupler on the lead A unit. 

I would take it either way. 

---

 

Thank you David, and I agree, that front coupler will never be used, so I will probably make a future project to replace it with a scale coupler.

Norton posted:

Budkole posted:

Norton posted:

For the bottom feeders like me there are the K-Line E8s. I have 450 bucks in these including the cruise upgrade and fixed pilots. Equiped with the Binford high torque drive system (ugh, ugh, ugh)  its fully capable of pulling prototypical 17 car consists.

Pete

Those are nice!   Did you put spacers in for pilot or did you just fix them to the frame as is?

Thanks Frank. The pilot is plastic and is glued to the body after removing the buffer plate from the pilot. These are from P&D and fit the curvature perfectly. 

Pete

do you happen to remember the part number?

They are PDP5140 plastic passenger pilots with PDP5141 pilot doors. They also offer brass versions and well as pilots for freight pilots.

Pete

Found this:

https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/...and-lionel-legacy-f7

Norton posted:

They are PDP5140 plastic passenger pilots with PDP5141 pilot doors. They also offer brass versions and well as pilots for freight pilots.

Pete

thanks Pete

c.sam posted:

BNSF-Matt,  Can you post a few more pics from different angles to show off the beautiful stainless effect of your units?   Didn't realize that MTH had produced those like that. I remember some years ago they made a set ofSanta Fe F3s that were 'chromed' but appeared overdone...

Pull the 'claw' and fix that pilot and you'll have a sweet model!

So, pictures and videos don't do the stainless justice versus seeing it in person, but I hope this helps. (sorry for the mess, layout is under construction)

BNSF-MATT - very nice. Do you have the MRP item # for that engine/cars? Thanks

MikeAngelTrains posted:

BNSF-MATT - very nice. Do you have the MRP item # for that engine/cars? Thanks

Yup, 

20-20622-1 - E8 Set - this comes with the #83 A E8 and 4 passenger cars

20-20052-3 - E8 A #84

20-20621-3 - E8 B-Unit #86

20-67276 - Vista Dome Car

Those are simply beautiful!  Even the cars are 'stainless' rather than the regular silver. Too bad MTH doesn't put nice photographs in their catalogs to show of features like this - most of their tiny illustrations do little to nothing to highlight these fine models.

I just looked up the catalog post and there is nothing in the text to give you the idea of the appearance of this set.  Pitiful.....

What prompted you to buy these Matt?  Great decision however...

I'd say the MTH set is definite contender here!

"I passed on the Lionel E units because of the lack of two powered units. I need two to pull my 12 car CZ train."

Just how heavy are those cars? 2 modern can motors are pretty twisty. Steamers typically have only one  (but usually somewhat larger) motor. My Lionel TMCC ATSF 3751 4-8-4 easily walks away with my K-line 21" 6-car (includes the business car) set.

BNSF- Matt,

great pictures and nice video. The Bicentennial unit off to side looks incredible also.

Dave

I don't think it's a matter of motor power at all but a traction issue.

My 3rd Rail E8s in A-A configuration can haul my eleven  21" GGD heavyweights just fine, but . . . getting started on a 2% grade, with those heavy cars snaked around two curves, is another matter. Wheels spin. If only one unit were powered . . . . well, I think I'd have a real problem with that train. If the locomotives were heavier, the wheels likely would not slip.

My MTH A-A E8 set, with both units powered, acts much the same with this heavy train.

I haven't the heart to try pulling the 11 cars upgrade with my Legacy F3 which has a dummy A unit.  I doubt it could do it. I don't have a Legacy E8 to compare. 

Die cast steamers are heavy from 15 to 25 pounds depending. It's hard to load em down to the slipping point especially with traction tires. Diesels are much lighter, like 6 pounds. There isn't enough mass there to keep the wheels from slipping under heavy loads up grades. Do you want to be $850 into motive power for a train only to find out it's not enough to pull it up your grade? Then what's your option? Buy another $850 set you you can get the powered unit or not run that train. No thanks, I'll bet the sure thing, plus the detail is way ahead of Lionel or MTH.

what company is pdp.

tangoman posted:

what company is pdp.

I'll take a guess...  Since these are parts uniquely from P&D Hobby, I would surmise that the PDP prefix to the stock number might mean something like "P&D Part".

Just a guess, though....since they're only available through P&D Hobby.

Sorry it has to be compared

Why be sorry?  If the discussion is genuine and informative then apologize shouldn't be necessary.  I think most of us welcome well presented factual discussions. I believe this thread is a good example of that.

 

 

645 posted:

Dominic Mazoch posted:

Trains44 posted:

The 3RD Rail E8

Those Amtrak E units look nice.  Looks as if they were models of units they bought from UP, considering the roof details.

Sunset did base their Amtrak E8/9 off former Union Pacific units. The winterization hatches are removeable so one could renumber it to an non-UP Amtrak E road number.

The dynamic brake fan is also a removable piece so it is possible to number several variations on Amtrak's E8 / E9 pool based on the donor railroad.  In this video, you can see how I left the snow shields off on of the units. 

In my opinion what makes an F or an E unit is the configuration of the nose.  Features aside, I feel the 3rd rail version does that best.  I have a set of Weaver units and K-Line units and while they were very good for their time, the nose and windows just don't feel right.  Note in the video that the trailing B unit is a Weaver and how much higher it sits.   I like these so much I have an AB ATSF set coming in the second run.

\

3rd Rail next to K-Line

3rd Rail Next to Weaver

Lionel Legacy  E8s have two motors Odyssey speed control and traction tires on each powered truck. 3RD rail I believe has one motor per powered unit  and I'm not sure about traction tires. 

I believe if you compare a single Lionel powered unit against a single 3rd rail powered unit for pulling power the Lionel comes out on top every time!