3rd Rail F3 Pulling Power

Will Ebbert posted:

I have a 12 car Atlas California Zephyr and was looking at possibly getting a 3rd Rail F3 to pull the 12 cars and two non powered B units from Lionel.

What railroad styling are you considering? I ask because in my opinion, the Lionel B Units will probably NOT match the correctly done F3A, not matter which railroad you are considering.

Would one powered unit be enough to pull that on 2% grades?

No.

I had originally planned on two Atlas powered F units, but those will be a while. I don't have room in my budget for two 3rd Rail engines. 

Then I don't know what to tell you. Remember, you get what you pay for.

Hot Water posted:

Will Ebbert posted:

I have a 12 car Atlas California Zephyr and was looking at possibly getting a 3rd Rail F3 to pull the 12 cars and two non powered B units from Lionel.

What railroad styling are you considering? I ask because in my opinion, the Lionel B Units will probably NOT match the correctly done F3A, not matter which railroad you are considering.

Would one powered unit be enough to pull that on 2% grades?

No.

I had originally planned on two Atlas powered F units, but those will be a while. I don't have room in my budget for two 3rd Rail engines. 

Then I don't know what to tell you. Remember, you get what you pay for.

 

I'm doing Western Pacific. I know they'll be really nice, but they're a lot of money too.

No.  I have a Williams ABA- 4 motors to pull my Zephyr-11 cars & it is fine on a level track, nut not on a grade.  I have 2 powered F7s to pull a 10 car El Capitan and they are fine on a level track, but not on a grade.

The F7s are 3rd Rail.

I agree that one 3rd Rail F3 powered unit isn’t going to pull such a load up even a slight grade, especially after you have added a couple of dummy units. Worse, don’t try mixing and matching Lionel and 3rd Rail powered units because (apart from possible Legacy vs. TMCC issues) the gearing and other drive train specs don’t match. In my case I have struck with 3rd Rail powered units.

I have Lionel Legacy F3s I'll sell ya. with 2 powered b units

OH yeah, they're CB&Q

I have Lionel Legacy WP  F 7 ABBA with one powered A & B pullig the original 1950 Atlas 11 car Set  and that Works well for me,I also Substitute the MTH CB&Q  E 8 A B A with both A units powered and that looks good also.

Mikey

I agree that an A-B-B set of WP’s from 3rd Rail are a bit pricey.  Probably north of $1,900.  Remember they do not offer non-powered F-units.

The same A-B-B combo F3’s from Atlas will run under $1,500.  Again all three will be powered.  In ther effort to make the second run of The California Zephyr special they only offered powered units for al three roads; CB&Q, Rio Grande and Western Pacific.

Will the Atlas combo be able to pull the 12-car California Zephyr up a 2% grade.  YES.  I would be willing to bet they could pull 24 CZ cars up that grade.

Slight problem, these units will not be available until Feb 2019.  So you have a couple of months to pony up some more $$$.

Jim, you're generous with your time estimates

You will need 3 powered units if you dont want to tear up parts, like traction tires, gears, motors etc etc. 

2 powered units are going to struggle to pull 12 cars, and work very hard, especially on a 2% grade.

With 12 cars, dont bother with non powered units as it will just make the train heavier and harder to pull

Have you considered using Alco PA’s from the DRG&W? I’m not an expert (don’t have the room for such luxury on my layout!) but I bet a A-A Set would be able to handle that grade & cost less than trying to buy a trio of F’s. Also the Zephyr did run with a single U Boat once for a test so if you are willing to run a later iteration of the train then that is a possibility too.

A pair of 3rd Rail E8s pull the zephyr just fine on level track. I don’t have any grades so I can’t tell you if they 2 can handle it. I only run my E8s these days. 

I definitely want WP F3s and I want fixed pilots which rules out Lionel so I guess I'll just wait for the Atlas units. Thanks for the input guys! 

Will Ebbert posted:

I definitely want WP F3s and I want fixed pilots which rules out Lionel so I guess I'll just wait for the Atlas units. Thanks for the input guys! 

I talked with an Atlas dealer and the F3’s I was told they will be on the water in late December.Look for a late February early March delivery,they’ve almost here

MR-150 posted:

Will Ebbert posted:

I definitely want WP F3s and I want fixed pilots which rules out Lionel so I guess I'll just wait for the Atlas units. Thanks for the input guys! 

I talked with an Atlas dealer and the F3’s I was told they will be on the water in late December.Look for a late February early March delivery,they’ve almost here

When was this? 

Will Ebbert posted:

I definitely want WP F3s and I want fixed pilots which rules out Lionel so I guess I'll just wait for the Atlas units. Thanks for the input guys! 

In the meantime, perhaps you can sell the unpowered LIONEL B units for some cash and avoid a color mismatch with whatever powered units you buy.

I doubt we will see anything from Atlas O anytime soon

MR-150 posted:

Will Ebbert posted:

I definitely want WP F3s and I want fixed pilots which rules out Lionel so I guess I'll just wait for the Atlas units. Thanks for the input guys! 

I talked with an Atlas dealer and the F3’s I was told they will be on the water in late December.Look for a late February early March delivery,they’ve almost here

Will Ebbert posted:

MR-150 posted:

Will Ebbert posted:

I definitely want WP F3s and I want fixed pilots which rules out Lionel so I guess I'll just wait for the Atlas units. Thanks for the input guys! 

I talked with an Atlas dealer and the F3’s I was told they will be on the water in late December.Look for a late February early March delivery,they’ve almost here

When was this? 

Within the past week.Both are well known Atlas dealers.One in the Midwest the other on the West Coast.

A very good discussion.  I am speaking only of my 3rd rail equipment at this time.   I also had concerns if a pair SAL E-8's after I started adding several additional SM cars to my consist would handle the chore.  Plus now, I'm looking at a 2% grade that I may add on.  I feel sure I may have to add an additional E-7 as a helper when available.  Just my thoughts.  I like engine power.

Tommy 

I run about 8 Atlas Zephyr cars max with single 3rd Rail E8s; I have about a 1.3 grade on the layout. The E8s max out.

I'm fascinated by the idea of a 12 car train. My outside loop is 25 feet by 60 feet, and I consider 8 cars a long train!

How long are your stations? How long are your passing sidings?  LOL

Jan

HiramO posted:

I run about 8 Atlas Zephyr cars max with single 3rd Rail E8s; I have about a 1.3 grade on the layout. The E8s max out.

I'm fascinated by the idea of a 12 car train. My outside loop is 25 feet by 60 feet, and I consider 8 cars a long train!

How long are your stations? How long are your passing sidings?  LOL

Jan

We routinely run 12-14 car passenger trains on our club layout.  Cars are GGD, MTH, Lionel and Atlas.  Atlas CZ cars are far and away the most free wheeling of any manufacturer.  One guy runs a 13 car Atlas CZ with a single powered Lionel A and two non-powered units (B + A) ZERO problems.  I have pulled the complete 12-car GGD El Capitan and three non-powered F’s with a single Powered Atlas A.  Again, no problems.  We have very broad curves and that really helps.

Jim, broad club layout curves and what grades? 

HiramO posted:

I run about 8 Atlas Zephyr cars max with single 3rd Rail E8s; I have about a 1.3 grade on the layout. The E8s max out.

I'm fascinated by the idea of a 12 car train. My outside loop is 25 feet by 60 feet, and I consider 8 cars a long train!

How long are your stations? How long are your passing sidings?  LOL

Jan

My layout was designed around the CZ. My siding is just big enough to hold the 12 car's and 3 Fs.

Laidoffsick posted:

Jim, broad club layout curves and what grades? 

ZERO.